Re: TWL: Re: RE: Re: Safety at sea - What would you do if?
In a message dated 9/28/00 7:48:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
huddlestonB_D@email.msn.com writes:
<< Ain't lawyers wonderful? >>
So they are, Shipmates. For flawed as they may be, without them the biggest
or meanest or most eloquent among us would always get their way.
Which reminds me of a story I heard down at the boatyard this weekend.
There's a fishing boat in for a paint job. I met the captain and crew, a
father and his son actually. The son told me about a boat that they salvaged
not long ago. They were coming home from the middle grounds with about 1000
pounds of fish. It was rough enough, and they came upon a sailboat wallowing
in the water, beam to the wind, with her mast swinging from side to side in a
wide arc. She was a big boat, seventy-five feet they found out later. There
was no one aboard.
So the son got aboard, and they got a line on her. They pulled her bow up
into the weather and got a pump going. When the level in the bilges got down
a bit, the young lad found that the stuffing box was leaking badly. He soon
got that stopped, and to his surprise he couldn't find any other leaks.
Well they had her under tow, and were making for Tampa Bay, when a Coast
Guard boat found them. The sailboat's skipper was aboard and a discussion
ensued. The skipper said they found high water in the bilges and decided to
abandon ship. They put out a call for help and were picked up by another
boat. I guess nobody was hurt. The Coasties had responded to the call too.
They took the skipper on board, and went to look for the sailboat. So the
skipper was a little distraught when he found his boat was already under tow.
Now nobody there was an expert on salvage matters, and either the Coasties
didn't know, or they were wisely keeping out of it. However a critical point
in the discussion seemed to come when the skipper said, "I guess I have to
ask you to release my boat to me." Upon which the old fishing captain, being
a bit wily, answered with, "Well, since she's under tow, I suppose we might
as well pull her in." At that point the Coast Guard boat left with a rather
disgruntled skipper.
The fishermen hauled her all the way to the Tampa shrimp docks and tied her
up there. But they didn't chain her and very early the next morning somebody
showed up, boarded the sailboat, and took her away, without the salvor's
knowledge or permission. So it was off to see a marine lawyer. Well the son
was still confused about what happened then. Apparently they had to sue the
sailboat owners, the insurance company, and the ship? He thought they even
had to "arrest the ship", whatever that means. They asked for $60,000, and
when all the dust settled, they had sawed off at $48,000 for salvage. The
captain got some, his son got a little, and their lawyer got most of it.
Guy's got to make a living, I guess. Apparently the boat that rescued the
crew even got $14,000 for saving their soggy behinds. If that's so, I'm
amazed that they would even consider taking it. Is there no honor left at
all, Shipmates? Is money everything?
Anyway, it sure would be nice to have a better understanding about salvage
matters, just some basic principles and rights. Can anyone shed some light
on this subject?
Paul Browne
Bob & Debbie Huddleston Krogen 42
AB6NI KC6SKY "The Deborah C."
HuddlestonB_D@msn.com
----- Original Message -----
From: PBrowne900@aol.com
To: trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: TWL: Re: RE: Re: Safety at sea - What would you do if?
In a message dated 9/28/00 7:48:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
huddlestonB_D@email.msn.com writes:
<< Ain't lawyers wonderful? >>
So they are, Shipmates. For flawed as they may be, without them the
biggest
or meanest or most eloquent among us would always get their way.
Paul,
I have no problem with what you said in your message. Lawyers are people.
They have pretty good academic credentials. Some are principled
professionals. Unfortunately, some are just plain money grubbing assholes
who will bilk anyone they can.
My argument is not about individual lawyers. The point that I was trying to
make is that the legal profession in this country is more than a bit out of
hand. Kids who have skateboards have to have helmets, shin guards elbow
guards, ... Even if they have all this stuff (which is probably good) ,
when they get hurt the manufacturer gets sued for their design. We are a
country of law. That has worked out pretty well. But the lawyers have taken
over to a point that our founders could have never imagined.We have a great
country/democracy , but it can be made better with common sense.
Thanks to all for allowing me to express my opinion.
----- Original Message -----
From: PBrowne900@aol.com
Anyway, it sure would be nice to have a better understanding about salvage
matters, just some basic principles and rights. Can anyone shed some
light
on this subject?
Hi Paul,
I don't know how much help this is, but:
A friend of mine is a merchant seaman (engineer) who most often works on
container ships out of US west coast ports. He tells me that if a ship is
abandoned it becomes the property of the salvor as soon as he has a line on
it. In the real world, however, what happens is that there is usually a fair
amount of time between when a ship gets in trouble and when the situation
has escalated to the point of needing to abandon ship. In the interim the
ships owners are in communication with their insurers as well as one or more
preferred salvors in order to secure the ship without having to lose
ownership.
While this is going on the crew is making a ton of overtime while trying to
get the problem fixed and the captain is probably wondering whether his
resume is up to date.
I don't know how any of that applies to pleasure boats but there must be a
lot of precedent out there given the number of boats that come adrift from
their moorings or are abandoned during storms and which are subsequently
found with little or no damage.
Jurally yours,
Alex
Maybe we might usefully give this discussion a more descriptive name to
assist in subsequent archive searches.
The law relating to salvage is an ancient and arcane subsection of admiralty
law, which is itself more than ancient and arcane enough. Notwithstanding
all the alliteration, we should all probably have at least a smattering,
because the consequences of getting it wrong could be somewhat tiresome.
Like, ruin your day...
There's a pretty useful article in the August 2000 issue(Volume 13, number
8) of "Powerboat Reports". This little non-glossy magazine is like Consumer
Reports in that it accepts no advertising, publishing comparative reports on
a variety of powerboat-related products and subjects. It did a special
report in August entitled "Salvage or Tow? Knowing the Difference Could
save you Big Bucks". Can't summarize it here (copyright), but it's well
worth chasing down.
In the alternative, could Georgs possibly bring the influence of the List to
bear and get permission to reprint the piece or maybe even a summary of it?
Usual disclaimer: I have no connection, other than a subscription, to
"Powerboat Reports".
Fred Blair
"Panacea II"
35' Oceana
Port Severn, ON
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Hirsekorn" alexh@gte.net
To: "Trawler World List" trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: TWL: Re: RE: Re: Safety at sea - What would you do if?
----- Original Message -----
From: PBrowne900@aol.com
Anyway, it sure would be nice to have a better understanding about
salvage
matters, just some basic principles and rights. Can anyone shed some
light
on this subject?
Hi Paul,
I don't know how much help this is, but:
A friend of mine is a merchant seaman (engineer) who most often works on
container ships out of US west coast ports. He tells me that if a ship is
abandoned it becomes the property of the salvor as soon as he has a line
on
it. In the real world, however, what happens is that there is usually a
fair
amount of time between when a ship gets in trouble and when the situation
has escalated to the point of needing to abandon ship. In the interim the
ships owners are in communication with their insurers as well as one or
more
preferred salvors in order to secure the ship without having to lose
ownership.
While this is going on the crew is making a ton of overtime while trying
to
get the problem fixed and the captain is probably wondering whether his
resume is up to date.
I don't know how any of that applies to pleasure boats but there must be a
lot of precedent out there given the number of boats that come adrift from
their moorings or are abandoned during storms and which are subsequently
found with little or no damage.
Jurally yours,
Alex
My argument is not about individual lawyers. The point that I was trying
to make is that the legal profession in this country is more than a bit out
of hand. Kids who have skateboards have to have helmets, shin guards elbow
guards. Even if they have all this stuff (which is probably good), when
they get hurt the manufacturer gets sued for their design.<<<
Or do lawyers simply reflect the values of the society of which they form a
part? Greed and a preference for blaming others rather than taking
responsibility for oneself are hardly sins that lawyers created, or ones
from which they alone suffer. Maybe blaming lawyers for the state of
society is as much an attempt to avoid responsibility as blaming skateboard
manufacturers for injured kids.
I'm not a lawyer by the way. I'm just uneasy about finding scapegoats.
Regards, Robert Bryett
Sydney, Australia.
mailto:rbryett@ibm.net
Bob & Debbie Huddleston Krogen 42
AB6NI KC6SKY "The Deborah C."
Maybe blaming lawyers for the state of
society is as much an attempt to avoid responsibility as blaming
skateboard
manufacturers for injured kids.
I'm not a lawyer by the way. I'm just uneasy about finding scapegoats.
Regards, Robert Bryett
Sydney, Australia.
mailto:rbryett@ibm.net
Robert, I apologize if you felt that I was "shooting the mesenger". I happen
to agree with your point of view. I would still like to get to an era when
we say hello to friends and strangers alike --hold the door for them== do
not "flip them off"--and stop to help them when they have car trouble.
Cheers!
Robert, I apologize if you felt that I was "shooting the mesenger". I
happen to agree with your point of view.<<<
Maybe I'm the one who should apologise. I wasn't taking aim at you.
Regards, Robert Bryett
Sydney, Australia.
mailto:rbryett@ibm.net
Robert Bryett wrote:
My argument is not about individual lawyers. The point that I was trying
to make is that the legal profession in this country is more than a bit out
of hand.
Robert,
First, I am a Lawyer, been one for 31 yrs. The profession is out of hand
in this country.
We need to GET RID OF MOST OF OUR LIABILITY LAWS.
But and this is a BIG but ,people must take responsibility for their own
actions. Now , my friends , that is the bottom line.
A lawyer can NOT file an action without a WILLING client.
Kids who have skateboards have to have helmets, shin guards elbow
guards. Even if they have all this stuff (which is probably good), when
they get hurt the manufacturer gets sued for their design.<<<
My point exactly, the parents purchased the thing and allowed little
Johnny and Johnnie to play on it now that the kid is hurt Mom and Dad
dont want to pay, it must be someone else's fault could never be theirs.
Or do lawyers simply reflect the values of the society of which they form a
part?
In a word YES.
Greed and a preference for blaming others rather than taking
responsibility for oneself are hardly sins that lawyers created, or ones
from which they alone suffer. Maybe blaming lawyers for the state of
society is as much an attempt to avoid responsibility as blaming skateboard
manufacturers for injured kids.
My sentiments exactly.
I'm not a lawyer by the way. I'm just uneasy about finding scapegoats.
As I said I am a lawyer and something must change, until the populace
decides then it will be the status quo.
I dont like carrying an exorbitant amt of liability ins. on my boat but
I ll tell you one thing your GUEST of yesterday will be the Plaintiff
of tomorrow after he falls getting on the boat. I have defended these
type actions for clients.
I fly a lot with a friend on his plane. I have told my wife that should
I die in his plane absolutely no suit will be filed for damages as I was
a willing participant in the endeavor.
CCC--
Charles C. Culotta
Patterson, La.
95 Miles West of New Orleans
On ICW
Clearly this thread has come unraveled, but I just gotta comment to
those who would say it is up to the population to change our culture in
order to control lawyers. In my home town of Mobile, Al, I am
bombarded constantly with ads on TV and in the paper asking if I have
mesothelioma, if I have been injured in a car wreck or off-shore, and
how much Morris Bart et al. can get me with no obligation etc, etc. Now
I have to think that there are a lot of folks out there who are either
desperate or ignorant, etc who are easy prey for this ilk. I don't see
them changing this culture. Whether this actually depicts the social
demographics of the plaintiffs or not, this argument is not a lot
different from saying that "BIG TOBACCO" needs to be cut down to size by
all of the parents whose teens are smoking, that "BIG OIL" should be
brought to heal by all of those SUV-driving mothers practicing a little
abstention, that Microsoft will knucke under if we just don't use
Windows, and I could go on and on. This issue, like most which offer
complication in our lives, is not black and white, is not of singular
responsibility, and perhaps most importantly, can't and probably should
not have its solution gestated here.
Not really fond of lawyersly yours,
Alan Yankie
I would like to have left the entire message from Charles, but I know I
would have been in trouble with the message word counter. Charles makes a
very valid point which is much more pertinent than my flippant comment. A
question that I will pose here, but should probably be answered in a
non-boating forum, is how , or even if, we can get back on track. A lot of
countries do not want to deal with us. And I am careful about whom I ask
out. And while it may seem trite, I do have friends who are lawyers whom I
trust. But not to pander too much, I would be very nervous about putting
myself in the hands of a lawyer that I do not know personally. It is a scary
situation in this country. I feel that I have worked hard and long in my
profession before I retired. I have a pension which extends to my wife and I
have some savings. I do spend some time worrying that all of it could
disappear in one simple boating accident. It makes me distrustful of others,
which is absolutely contrary to my nature (everyone is a friend until they
prove themselves otherwise).
But I have said enough.
Cheers! And thanks to Charles for his reply.
Bob & Debbie Huddleston Krogen 42
AB6NI KC6SKY "The Deborah C.
Robert,
First, I am a Lawyer, been one for 31 yrs. The profession is out of hand
in this country.
We need to GET RID OF MOST OF OUR LIABILITY LAWS.
But and this is a BIG but ,people must take responsibility for their own
actions. Now , my friends , that is the bottom line.
A lawyer can NOT file an action without a WILLING client.
Charles C. Culotta
Patterson, La.
95 Miles West of New Orleans
On ICW