magnetic electronic components
Hi,
I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
(with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.
So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.
Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
--
I must not become metastable.
Metastability is the mind-killer.
Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my metastability.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
The techniques are still alive & well in power electronics. Try looking at
an introductory textbook on the subject. Engineers with decades of
experience in this will design inductors, then trim them by hand to achieve
the best results. One old guy would crack toroids in half, and then shim
them with multiple cigarette papers to make a gapped core.
Tom Harris celephicus@gmail.com
On 23 June 2015 at 05:02, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
Hi,
I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
(with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.
So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.
Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
--
I must not become metastable.
Metastability is the mind-killer.
Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my metastability.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Although it's published by a vendor, this applications manual has a lot of
useful information.
http://www.we-online.com/web/en/electronic_components/produkte_pb/fachbuecher/Trilogie.php
I was sufficiently impressed when I saw it at a trade show that I bought a
copy, and they've reduce the price since then.
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
Hi,
I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
(with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.
So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.
Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
--
I must not become metastable.
Metastability is the mind-killer.
Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my metastability.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
The problem with coils (inductors) is that they are indeed on the “other side”
of the physics / electrical engineering divide. They are not unique in this way.
Most components are dealt with to a “equivalent model” level and then abandoned
in engineering.
You have two choices:
- Read the physics stuff
- Go back far enough that the divide had not occurred ( <= 1950’s).
Sorry about that ….
Bob
On Jun 22, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
Hi,
I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
(with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.
So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.
Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
--
I must not become metastable.
Metastability is the mind-killer.
Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my metastability.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Try this to just get started:
<www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/8405015.pdf>
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
Hi,
I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
(with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.
So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.
Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
--
I must not become metastable.
Metastability is the mind-killer.
Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my metastability.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 6/22/15 12:02 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
Hi,
I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
(with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.
the best, and probably the only, book is the one by E.C. Snelling.
http://www.amazon.com/Soft-ferrites-properties-applications-Snelling/dp/0592027902
1969 edition is
https://archive.org/details/SNELLING__SOFT-FERRITES__1969
and it's not like the properties of magnetic fields have changed.
So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.
Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
This brings up a wide range of possible topics. You first need to
understand the physics, which is complex because magnetic fields
interact with matter in more interesting manners than electric fields,
due to spin and angular momentum.
- Magnetic moment (spin and orbital angular momentum):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_moment - Magnetic field B:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfor.html - Magnetic field strength H:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfield.html - Magnetic hysteresis:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/hyst.html - Ferromagnetism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferromagnetism
- Ferrimagnetism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrimagnetism
- Curie temperature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_temperature
- Self inductance:
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/inductance.html - Mutual inductance and transformers:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/indmut.html - Eddy current: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current
- Skin effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
- Faraday effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_effect Some of
these topics (such as skin effect) seem esoteric, but they are
crucial to understanding many common devices, such as why many large
AC power lines use multiple wires in parallel rather than one large
wire. Litz wire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litz_wire
Because of mutual inductance, two circuits can be coupled to produce a
wide range of useful devices (transformers, baluns, etc.). Certain
materials (such as YIG spheres[1]) can be used to produce magnetically
tuned filters which are commonly used in microwave devices.
There are many practical books on the use of certain magnetic devices,
such as ferrite cores. You can also find resources on design of
switching power supplies which discuss the magnetic materials involved.
Ferromagnetic Core Design & Application Handbook
http://www.amidoncorp.com/ferromagnetic-core-design-application-handbook/
Magnetics design for switching power supplies:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/slup123/slup123.pdf
The practical applications for science are much more interesting than
the average person realizes. Of course, magnetic behavior combine with
electric behavior resulting in electromagnetism, leading to transmission
line theory and electromagnetic radiation. But that's more than you
asked for. :)
--
Bill Byrom N5BB
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015, at 06:56 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
Hi
The problem with coils (inductors) is that they are indeed on the “other
side”
of the physics / electrical engineering divide. They are not unique in
this way.
Most components are dealt with to a “equivalent model” level and then
abandoned
in engineering.
You have two choices:
- Read the physics stuff
- Go back far enough that the divide had not occurred ( <= 1950’s).
Sorry about that ….
Bob
On Jun 22, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
Hi,
I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
(with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.
So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.
Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
--
I must not become metastable.
Metastability is the mind-killer.
Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my metastability.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi all - this website has some older books from the 50's and 60's that may help.
Links are at
http://tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm
Most of the way to the bottom of the page.
I hope this is helpful..
Passive components (transformers, capacitors...)
Capacitors, Magnetic Circuits, and Transformers, Leander Matsch, 1964, 350 pages
A detailed text on capacitors, inductors, and transformers. Great info for those wanting a deep understanding of these passive components. Good theory and practical applications, especially on transformers and inductors.
Download full text with index, 3.2MB PDF file
Electronic Transformers and Circuits, Reuben Lee, 1955, 349 pages - Courtesy of John Atwood
This book is a "reference on the design of transformers and electronic apparatus". It covers the design of power transformers, chokes, and signal (audio) transformers. It also talks a bit about circuitry, as it relates to transformers. Enough theory to understand what's going on, as well as practical info on how to construct transformers.
Download full text, 24MB PDF file
Handbook of Piezoelectric Crystals, John P. Buchanan, 1956, 701 pages - Courtesy of an anonymous donor
Wow - of military origin, a 700 page book about crystals! A rare source of information on peizo crystals, as they relate mostly to communications.
Download full text, 48MB PDF file
Hipersil® Core Design Engineer's Handbook, Westinghouse , 1965, 108 pages
This is a design guide and materials databook for Westinghouse Hipersil transformer cores. A good design guide for transformers and cokes, and has detailed material data (curves and data tables) for Hipersil steel.
Download full text, 1.9MB PDF file
John, K1AE
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 7:56 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Hi
The problem with coils (inductors) is that they are indeed on the “other side”
of the physics / electrical engineering divide. They are not unique in this way.
Most components are dealt with to a “equivalent model” level and then abandoned
in engineering.
You have two choices:
- Read the physics stuff
- Go back far enough that the divide had not occurred ( <= 1950’s).
Sorry about that ….
Bob
On Jun 22, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
Hi,
I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
(with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.
So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.
Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
--
I must not become metastable.
Metastability is the mind-killer.
Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my metastability.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 09:02:38PM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:
Hi,
I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
I found myself in the same position and gathered those books:
-RF oriented
Understanding, building, and using baluns and ununs, Jerry Sevick
Transmission line transformers, Jerry Sevick
The design of impedance matching networks, P.L.D. Abrie
-General
Ferrites for inductor and transformers, Snelling and Gilles
Soft ferrites and accessories (databook, Ferroxcube)
-Power (SMPS)
Switchmode power supply handbook, Billings
-Pulse digital (more for historical curiosity than anything practical)
Digital magnetic logic, Bennion, Crane and Nitzan
(also other books have parts about magnetic design; be aware for old books
because they used non SI units)
and some tens of MB of free PDF documents (I give you some titles) and texts...
-Power (SMPS)
"PDF_GeneralTechnicalInformation.pdf" Inductors - General technical information (EPCOS)
"R-217.pdf" Report R-217 - Design of low-power pulse transformers using ferrite cores
"slup123.pdf" Magnetics design - 1: Introduction and Basic Magnetics
"slup124.pdf" Magnetics design - 2: Magnetic Core Characteristics
"slup125.pdf" Magnetics design - 3: Windings
"slup126.pdf" Magnetics design - 4: Power Transformer Design
"slup127.pdf" Magnetics design - 5: Inductor and Flyback Transformer Design
"slup128b.pdf" Magnetics design - R1: Reference Design Section - Magnetic Core Properties
"slup197.pdf" Magnetics design - R2: Eddy Current Losses in Transformer Windings
"slup198.pdf" Magnetics design - R3: Deriving the Equivalent Electrical Circuit
"slup199.pdf" Magnetics design - R4: The Effects of Leakage Inductance on Switching Power Supply Performance
"slup200.pdf" Magnetics design - R6: How to Design a Transformer with Fractional Turns
"slup201.pdf" Magnetics design - R7: Winding Data
I have almost nothing about laminated core transformers, but no one
winds them by himself nowadays except perhaps some tube amplifier guys.
Best regards,
Andrea Baldoni
"Experimental Methods in RF Design" has a half-dozen pages specifically on
the choices of powdered iron and ferrite materials, and lots of working
circuits and designs with measurements. Aka EMRFD.
http://www.arrl.org/shop/Experimental-Methods-in-RF-Design
Here in the USA, iron powder and ferrite cores of many different materials,
sizes, and a few shapes are available from Amidon and kitsandparts.com.
Many useful ferrite cores for multi-turn transformers and chokes, are sold
as "EMI beads" by Mouser and Newark and other mainline distributors. I
don't know too much about easy availability in EU.
Tim N3QE
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
Hi,
I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
(with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.
So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.
Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
--
I must not become metastable.
Metastability is the mind-killer.
Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my metastability.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.