What the future holds for building passagemaker boats
What I see now is that PUP now has some legs. All we have to do is
filter out (in our minds at least) the barrow pushers, defenders,
Chicken Little's, theorists, apologists, and commercial interest folk.
Their view is relevant to them, so let it be told anyway. We can't be
like the lady reporting to the police about the naked man next door when
she observes the offence from her step ladder. Don't like it - flick it,
or don't climb the ladder.
May I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first
power boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have treated
myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere, and I
will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have shaken
the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I go after only
having the boat for 22 months.
I know Jack s..t about it all - still, but am learning from sites like
this (albeit with filters on)
What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert back to the
original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to this are their
deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a future Selene
59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has been shown by the
Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not convinced this is a better
boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1 that in a few short years
it will be. Any takers?
In my view the wonderful trailblazing American people have lost their
hunger for business and its principles, and good times have made them
fat, arrogant, and complacent. Wall Street and geographically challenged
prospective vice president candidates are a current testimony to all of
this.
We can theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is clear. I
bet someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization right at
this moment.
Ones man's view.
Peter
Peter,
That is an interesting bet. I follow the Selene Owners Forum, and I attempt
to learn as much as possible about Nordhavn and their systems as possible
without access to the Nordhavn's Owners Forum, by following forums such as
this. ( this forum is the only Nordhavn Forum that is open to the public).
For instance, The Selene Owners Forum has recently had a lengthy dialogue
about bilge odors, apparently caused by plumbing issues with their vented
loops. I don't know if Nordhavn owners discuss similar issues on their
forum.
There was another discussion about a swim step ladder hatch( and cracks in
the fiberglass from water invading the PLYWOOD core) that I did not see the
Selene Factory fully explain or state that they have corrected this design
issue. Here again, I do not know If Nordhavn owners have similar
design/build issues, because their forum is closed ( and the owners make a
good case for keeping it closed)
Selene Owners seem to like the fact that prospective owners can listen in
and ask questions in the theory that it keeps the big boys honest, or at
least gives everyone a sense of editorial justice.
With that being said, Selene founder Howard Chen says he aspires to be
committed to designing/ building/ evolving an ever better boat.
Part of that is how you handle warranty issues. His dealerships are
independently owned as contrasted with Nordhavn, which may be the
distinctive point which George Sass Sr. is referring to in this months Power
Cruising article on Chinese Boat Building.
Do Nordhavn owners have odor issues with their plumbing? If I don't do my
diligence, and buy a boat that is more suseptible ( we all know that air
flow is critical) than normal, my wife will never want to go boating and
I'll be dead in the water without ever having left the dock.
Please give me your thoughts everyone, this is an open letter,
OVER,
David Evans
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard <Peter@petersheppard.com.au
wrote:
What I see now is that PUP now has some legs. All we have to do is
filter out (in our minds at least) the barrow pushers, defenders,
Chicken Little's, theorists, apologists, and commercial interest folk.
Their view is relevant to them, so let it be told anyway. We can't be
like the lady reporting to the police about the naked man next door when
she observes the offence from her step ladder. Don't like it - flick it,
or don't climb the ladder.
May I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first
power boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have treated
myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere, and I
will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have shaken
the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I go after only
having the boat for 22 months.
I know Jack s..t about it all - still, but am learning from sites like
this (albeit with filters on)
What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert back to the
original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to this are their
deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a future Selene
59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has been shown by the
Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not convinced this is a better
boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1 that in a few short years
it will be. Any takers?
In my view the wonderful trailblazing American people have lost their
hunger for business and its principles, and good times have made them
fat, arrogant, and complacent. Wall Street and geographically challenged
prospective vice president candidates are a current testimony to all of
this.
We can theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is clear. I
bet someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization right at
this moment.
Ones man's view.
Peter
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
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Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
Just wanted to say that in my opinion, it is a shame to hear this attitude towards North Amreican builders.
Boats are being built in China for one reason only...LABOR COST!
A typical 50 footer has roughly 15000-20000 man hours in the build. Do the math!
I believe our economy and manufacturing sectors wouldn't be hurting so badly if more people supported local industry to give back a little to the country that gave them so much!
Just my opinion.....
Brian
Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "David Evans" highpressure@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:38:16
To: Passagemaking Under Power Listpassagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker boats
Peter,
That is an interesting bet. I follow the Selene Owners Forum, and I attempt
to learn as much as possible about Nordhavn and their systems as possible
without access to the Nordhavn's Owners Forum, by following forums such as
this. ( this forum is the only Nordhavn Forum that is open to the public).
For instance, The Selene Owners Forum has recently had a lengthy dialogue
about bilge odors, apparently caused by plumbing issues with their vented
loops. I don't know if Nordhavn owners discuss similar issues on their
forum.
There was another discussion about a swim step ladder hatch( and cracks in
the fiberglass from water invading the PLYWOOD core) that I did not see the
Selene Factory fully explain or state that they have corrected this design
issue. Here again, I do not know If Nordhavn owners have similar
design/build issues, because their forum is closed ( and the owners make a
good case for keeping it closed)
Selene Owners seem to like the fact that prospective owners can listen in
and ask questions in the theory that it keeps the big boys honest, or at
least gives everyone a sense of editorial justice.
With that being said, Selene founder Howard Chen says he aspires to be
committed to designing/ building/ evolving an ever better boat.
Part of that is how you handle warranty issues. His dealerships are
independently owned as contrasted with Nordhavn, which may be the
distinctive point which George Sass Sr. is referring to in this months Power
Cruising article on Chinese Boat Building.
Do Nordhavn owners have odor issues with their plumbing? If I don't do my
diligence, and buy a boat that is more suseptible ( we all know that air
flow is critical) than normal, my wife will never want to go boating and
I'll be dead in the water without ever having left the dock.
Please give me your thoughts everyone, this is an open letter,
OVER,
David Evans
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard <Peter@petersheppard.com.au
wrote:
What I see now is that PUP now has some legs. All we have to do is
filter out (in our minds at least) the barrow pushers, defenders,
Chicken Little's, theorists, apologists, and commercial interest folk.
Their view is relevant to them, so let it be told anyway. We can't be
like the lady reporting to the police about the naked man next door when
she observes the offence from her step ladder. Don't like it - flick it,
or don't climb the ladder.
May I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first
power boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have treated
myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere, and I
will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have shaken
the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I go after only
having the boat for 22 months.
I know Jack s..t about it all - still, but am learning from sites like
this (albeit with filters on)
What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert back to the
original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to this are their
deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a future Selene
59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has been shown by the
Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not convinced this is a better
boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1 that in a few short years
it will be. Any takers?
In my view the wonderful trailblazing American people have lost their
hunger for business and its principles, and good times have made them
fat, arrogant, and complacent. Wall Street and geographically challenged
prospective vice president candidates are a current testimony to all of
this.
We can theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is clear. I
bet someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization right at
this moment.
Ones man's view.
Peter
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
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Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
I'm with Brian. Is there any builders in the US that can build a 50ft
steel, glass trawler, passagemaker ready to go for $300,000! I for one
would be ready to purchase!
Robert
Just wanted to say that in my opinion, it is a shame to hear this attitude
towards North Amreican builders.
Boats are being built in China for one reason only...LABOR COST!
Peter,
I spent more than four years trying to decide between Selene,
Nordhavn and Krogen. I studied, I talked, I looked. Mostly I listened
to as many owners as possible of all three brands.
I decided that Krogens and Nordhavns were both quality boats, and I'd
be happy with either, but my wife didn't like the Krogen designs.
I strongly felt there was a large quality gap between Selene and
Nordhavn when I was finalizing my decision in 2006. Enough of a gap,
in fact, that I was willing to pay substantially more to buy a Nordhavn.
I've not been disappointed as my boat has had very few issues during
the 14 months that we've lived aboard and cruised. The small issues I
did have were handled under warranty (other than a paint defect around
a couple of curved windows that is still pending, with a warranty fix
promised).
I've never had the issues you noted below.
That said, both brands have their fans and their detractors. And no
boat is trouble-free.
As far as whether the quality gap between the brands is shrinking over
time or not, I don't have any basis to judge that. My perceptions are
based on observations and study during several years leading up to the
end of 2006, so its more of a snapshot than a trend.
Maybe someone else can comment if Selene has made more rapid progress
in design and quality than Nordhavn in 2007/2008.
John Marshall
Serendipity - N5520
Sequim Bay, WA
On Nov 14, 2008, at 11:38 AM, David Evans wrote:
Peter,
That is an interesting bet. I follow the Selene Owners Forum, and I
attempt
to learn as much as possible about Nordhavn and their systems as
possible
without access to the Nordhavn's Owners Forum, by following forums
such as
this. ( this forum is the only Nordhavn Forum that is open to the
public).
For instance, The Selene Owners Forum has recently had a lengthy
dialogue
about bilge odors, apparently caused by plumbing issues with their
vented
loops. I don't know if Nordhavn owners discuss similar issues on their
forum.
There was another discussion about a swim step ladder hatch( and
cracks in
the fiberglass from water invading the PLYWOOD core) that I did not
see the
Selene Factory fully explain or state that they have corrected this
design
issue. Here again, I do not know If Nordhavn owners have similar
design/build issues, because their forum is closed ( and the owners
make a
good case for keeping it closed)
Selene Owners seem to like the fact that prospective owners can
listen in
and ask questions in the theory that it keeps the big boys honest,
or at
least gives everyone a sense of editorial justice.
With that being said, Selene founder Howard Chen says he aspires to be
committed to designing/ building/ evolving an ever better boat.
Part of that is how you handle warranty issues. His dealerships are
independently owned as contrasted with Nordhavn, which may be the
distinctive point which George Sass Sr. is referring to in this
months Power
Cruising article on Chinese Boat Building.
Do Nordhavn owners have odor issues with their plumbing? If I don't
do my
diligence, and buy a boat that is more suseptible ( we all know
that air
flow is critical) than normal, my wife will never want to go boating
and
I'll be dead in the water without ever having left the dock.
Please give me your thoughts everyone, this is an open letter,
OVER,
David Evans
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard <Peter@petersheppard.com.au
wrote:
What I see now is that PUP now has some legs. All we have to do is
filter out (in our minds at least) the barrow pushers, defenders,
Chicken Little's, theorists, apologists, and commercial interest
folk.
Their view is relevant to them, so let it be told anyway. We can't be
like the lady reporting to the police about the naked man next door
when
she observes the offence from her step ladder. Don't like it -
flick it,
or don't climb the ladder.
May I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first
power boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have
treated
myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere,
and I
will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have
shaken
the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I go after
only
having the boat for 22 months.
I know Jack s..t about it all - still, but am learning from sites
like
this (albeit with filters on)
What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert back
to the
original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to this are their
deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a future
Selene
59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has been shown by
the
Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not convinced this is a
better
boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1 that in a few short
years
it will be. Any takers?
In my view the wonderful trailblazing American people have lost their
hunger for business and its principles, and good times have made them
fat, arrogant, and complacent. Wall Street and geographically
challenged
prospective vice president candidates are a current testimony to
all of
this.
We can theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is
clear. I
bet someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization
right at
this moment.
Ones man's view.
Peter
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
No doubt in my mind, if I could buy a similar quality boat for the
same money that was build in North America, I'd buy the North American
built one. I'd do it even if it was a few percent more expensive.
Unfortunately, the difference isn't a few percent. And cost is a very
big deal when it comes to buying a passagemaker. Boats remain
extremely labor intensive.
The real trick is to design a boat that requires very little labor to
build. A snap together boat or something. That would wash out most of
the labor difference.
John Marshall
On Nov 14, 2008, at 12:23 PM, brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca wrote:
Just wanted to say that in my opinion, it is a shame to hear this
attitude towards North Amreican builders.
Boats are being built in China for one reason only...LABOR COST!
A typical 50 footer has roughly 15000-20000 man hours in the build.
Do the math!
I believe our economy and manufacturing sectors wouldn't be hurting
so badly if more people supported local industry to give back a
little to the country that gave them so much!
Just my opinion.....
Brian
Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "David Evans" highpressure@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:38:16
To: Passagemaking Under Power List<passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker
boats
Peter,
That is an interesting bet. I follow the Selene Owners Forum, and I
attempt
to learn as much as possible about Nordhavn and their systems as
possible
without access to the Nordhavn's Owners Forum, by following forums
such as
this. ( this forum is the only Nordhavn Forum that is open to the
public).
For instance, The Selene Owners Forum has recently had a lengthy
dialogue
about bilge odors, apparently caused by plumbing issues with their
vented
loops. I don't know if Nordhavn owners discuss similar issues on their
forum.
There was another discussion about a swim step ladder hatch( and
cracks in
the fiberglass from water invading the PLYWOOD core) that I did not
see the
Selene Factory fully explain or state that they have corrected this
design
issue. Here again, I do not know If Nordhavn owners have similar
design/build issues, because their forum is closed ( and the owners
make a
good case for keeping it closed)
Selene Owners seem to like the fact that prospective owners can
listen in
and ask questions in the theory that it keeps the big boys honest,
or at
least gives everyone a sense of editorial justice.
With that being said, Selene founder Howard Chen says he aspires to be
committed to designing/ building/ evolving an ever better boat.
Part of that is how you handle warranty issues. His dealerships are
independently owned as contrasted with Nordhavn, which may be the
distinctive point which George Sass Sr. is referring to in this
months Power
Cruising article on Chinese Boat Building.
Do Nordhavn owners have odor issues with their plumbing? If I don't
do my
diligence, and buy a boat that is more suseptible ( we all know
that air
flow is critical) than normal, my wife will never want to go boating
and
I'll be dead in the water without ever having left the dock.
Please give me your thoughts everyone, this is an open letter,
OVER,
David Evans
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard <Peter@petersheppard.com.au
wrote:
What I see now is that PUP now has some legs. All we have to do is
filter out (in our minds at least) the barrow pushers, defenders,
Chicken Little's, theorists, apologists, and commercial interest
folk.
Their view is relevant to them, so let it be told anyway. We can't be
like the lady reporting to the police about the naked man next door
when
she observes the offence from her step ladder. Don't like it -
flick it,
or don't climb the ladder.
May I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first
power boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have
treated
myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere,
and I
will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have
shaken
the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I go after
only
having the boat for 22 months.
I know Jack s..t about it all - still, but am learning from sites
like
this (albeit with filters on)
What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert back
to the
original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to this are their
deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a future
Selene
59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has been shown by
the
Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not convinced this is a
better
boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1 that in a few short
years
it will be. Any takers?
In my view the wonderful trailblazing American people have lost their
hunger for business and its principles, and good times have made them
fat, arrogant, and complacent. Wall Street and geographically
challenged
prospective vice president candidates are a current testimony to
all of
this.
We can theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is
clear. I
bet someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization
right at
this moment.
Ones man's view.
Peter
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
You're exactly right about boats being built overseas because of the cost.
Boats are not the only thing, and this is not a recent occurrence. After ww2
the new Browning Company (firearms) had been manufacturing the Auto5, a semi
auto shotgun here in the good ole USA. It was labor and machine intensive.
But, the Belgians, after the war, had a serious surplus of labor and machinery
suited to building firearms. Browning contracted with them for the Auto5, and
made lots of them. The Springfield gun was better quality but the Belgium gun
was WAY cheaper to build. SO, browning held up the Belgium built gun as being
superior (advertizing) and sold the crap out of them. Later, when Europe
finally got back on it's feet, manufaturing went to japan, you guessed it,
cheaper. The Japaneze gun was better in every way but was a hard sell for
American gun buyers. Boat companies doing Binness overseas are no different
than John Browning, they gotta make a profit, but touting the product as
better thru advertizing hype doesn't set well with me, in guns or boats.>
From: johnamar1101@gmail.com> To: brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca;
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:40:28
-0800> Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker
boats> > No doubt in my mind, if I could buy a similar quality boat for the >
same money that was build in North America, I'd buy the North American > built
one. I'd do it even if it was a few percent more expensive.> > Unfortunately,
the difference isn't a few percent. And cost is a very > big deal when it
comes to buying a passagemaker. Boats remain > extremely labor intensive.> >
The real trick is to design a boat that requires very little labor to > build.
A snap together boat or something. That would wash out most of > the labor
difference.> > John Marshall> > On Nov 14, 2008, at 12:23 PM,
brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca wrote:> > > Just wanted to say that in my opinion,
it is a shame to hear this > > attitude towards North Amreican builders.> >> >
Boats are being built in China for one reason only...LABOR COST!> >> > A
typical 50 footer has roughly 15000-20000 man hours in the build. > > Do the
math!> >> > I believe our economy and manufacturing sectors wouldn't be
hurting > > so badly if more people supported local industry to give back a >
little to the country that gave them so much!> >> > Just my opinion.....> >>
Brian> > Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry> >> >
-----Original Message-----> > From: "David Evans" highpressure@gmail.com> >>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:38:16> > To: Passagemaking Under Power
List<passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com > > >> > Subject: Re: [PUP]
What the future holds for building passagemaker > > boats> >> >> > Peter,> >>
That is an interesting bet. I follow the Selene Owners Forum, and I > >
attempt> > to learn as much as possible about Nordhavn and their systems as >
possible> > without access to the Nordhavn's Owners Forum, by following
forums > > such as> > this. ( this forum is the only Nordhavn Forum that is
open to the > > public).> >> > For instance, The Selene Owners Forum has
recently had a lengthy > > dialogue> > about bilge odors, apparently caused by
plumbing issues with their > > vented> > loops. I don't know if Nordhavn
owners discuss similar issues on their> > forum.> >> > There was another
discussion about a swim step ladder hatch( and > > cracks in> > the fiberglass
from water invading the PLYWOOD core) that I did not > > see the> > Selene
Factory fully explain or state that they have corrected this > > design> >
issue. Here again, I do not know If Nordhavn owners have similar> >
design/build issues, because their forum is closed ( and the owners > > make
a> > good case for keeping it closed)> >> > Selene Owners seem to like the
fact that prospective owners can > > listen in> > and ask questions in the
theory that it keeps the big boys honest, > > or at> > least gives everyone a
sense of editorial justice.> >> > With that being said, Selene founder Howard
Chen says he aspires to be> > committed to designing/ building/ evolving an
ever better boat.> > Part of that is how you handle warranty issues. His
dealerships are> > independently owned as contrasted with Nordhavn, which may
be the> > distinctive point which George Sass Sr. is referring to in this > >
months Power> > Cruising article on Chinese Boat Building.> >> > Do Nordhavn
owners have odor issues with their plumbing? If I don't > > do my> >
diligence, and buy a boat that is more suseptible ( we all know > > that air>
flow is critical) than normal, my wife will never want to go boating > >
and> > I'll be dead in the water without ever having left the dock.> >> >
Please give me your thoughts everyone, this is an open letter,> >> > OVER,> >>
David Evans> >> > On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard
Peter@petersheppard.com.au >> wrote:> >> >> What I see now is that PUP now
has some legs. All we have to do is> >> filter out (in our minds at least) the
barrow pushers, defenders,> >> Chicken Little's, theorists, apologists, and
commercial interest > >> folk.> >> Their view is relevant to them, so let it
be told anyway. We can't be> >> like the lady reporting to the police about
the naked man next door > >> when> >> she observes the offence from her step
ladder. Don't like it - > >> flick it,> >> or don't climb the ladder.> >> May
I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first> >> power
boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have > >> treated> >>
myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere, > >> and I>
will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have > >>
shaken> >> the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I go after
only> >> having the boat for 22 months.> >> I know Jack s..t about it all
- still, but am learning from sites > >> like> >> this (albeit with filters
on)> >> What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert back > >>
to the> >> original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to this are
their> >> deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a future >
Selene> >> 59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has been shown
by > >> the> >> Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not convinced this
is a > >> better> >> boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1 that in a
few short > >> years> >> it will be. Any takers?> >> In my view the wonderful
trailblazing American people have lost their> >> hunger for business and its
principles, and good times have made them> >> fat, arrogant, and complacent.
Wall Street and geographically > >> challenged> >> prospective vice president
candidates are a current testimony to > >> all of> >> this.> >> We can
theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is > >> clear. I> >> bet
someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization > >> right at> >>
this moment.> >> Ones man's view.> >> Peter> >>
_______________________________________________> >>
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power> >>> >> To
unsubscribe send email to> >>
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word> >>
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.> >>> >>
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World> >>
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.> >
_______________________________________________> >
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power> >> > To
unsubscribe send email to> >
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word> >
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.> >> >
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > >
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.> >
_______________________________________________> >
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power> >> > To
unsubscribe send email to> >
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word> >
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.> >> >
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > >
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.>
_______________________________________________>
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power> > To
unsubscribe send email to> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com
with the word> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the
message.> > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.>
Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live
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I'm not sure manufacturers are saying the boat is better quality
because its built in China, only that some quality brands are built
there.
In fact, from everything I understand, its been a long, slow climb to
get Asia boat quality up to snuff. But Grand Banks (Malaysia) and the
various Taiwanese manufacturers have had a long time to figure it out.
(Remember the early CHB's and the like?)
It's the Taiwanese who have now taken that talent to mainland China by
creating subsidiaries there, by putting their people in charge, and
have brought the mainland factories up to quality standards ten times
faster than it originally took them.
The only counter-example I've ever heard is the Nordhavn 40, which was
built in the US before moving offshore. The Asian built N40's are
regarded by most N40 owners I've talked to as superior, although a
portion of that is likely due to design and materials improvements
that occurred during the transfer.
From my perspective, its all about lower cost, and not taking a
significant quality PENALTY for Asia build.
John
On Nov 14, 2008, at 1:48 PM, bob england wrote:
You're exactly right about boats being built overseas because of the
cost.
Boats are not the only thing, and this is not a recent occurrence.
After ww2
the new Browning Company (firearms) had been manufacturing the
Auto5, a semi
auto shotgun here in the good ole USA. It was labor and machine
intensive.
But, the Belgians, after the war, had a serious surplus of labor and
machinery
suited to building firearms. Browning contracted with them for the
Auto5, and
made lots of them. The Springfield gun was better quality but the
Belgium gun
was WAY cheaper to build. SO, browning held up the Belgium built gun
as being
superior (advertizing) and sold the crap out of them. Later, when
Europe
finally got back on it's feet, manufaturing went to japan, you
guessed it,
cheaper. The Japaneze gun was better in every way but was a hard
sell for
American gun buyers. Boat companies doing Binness overseas are no
different
than John Browning, they gotta make a profit, but touting the
product as
better thru advertizing hype doesn't set well with me, in guns or
boats.>
From: johnamar1101@gmail.com> To: brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca;
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008
12:40:28
-0800> Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building
passagemaker
boats> > No doubt in my mind, if I could buy a similar quality boat
for the >
same money that was build in North America, I'd buy the North
American > built
one. I'd do it even if it was a few percent more expensive.> >
Unfortunately,
the difference isn't a few percent. And cost is a very > big deal
when it
comes to buying a passagemaker. Boats remain > extremely labor
intensive.> >
The real trick is to design a boat that requires very little labor
to > build.
A snap together boat or something. That would wash out most of > the
labor
difference.> > John Marshall> > On Nov 14, 2008, at 12:23 PM,
brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca wrote:> > > Just wanted to say that in
my opinion,
it is a shame to hear this > > attitude towards North Amreican
builders.> >> >
Boats are being built in China for one reason only...LABOR COST!> >>
A
typical 50 footer has roughly 15000-20000 man hours in the build. >
Do the
math!> >> > I believe our economy and manufacturing sectors wouldn't
be
hurting > > so badly if more people supported local industry to give
back a >
little to the country that gave them so much!> >> > Just my
opinion.....> >>
Brian> > Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry> >> >
-----Original Message-----> > From: "David Evans" <highpressure@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:38:16> > To: Passagemaking Under Power
List<passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com > > >> > Subject:
Re: [PUP]
What the future holds for building passagemaker > > boats> >> >> >
Peter,> >>
That is an interesting bet. I follow the Selene Owners Forum, and I
attempt> > to learn as much as possible about Nordhavn and their
systems as >
possible> > without access to the Nordhavn's Owners Forum, by
following
forums > > such as> > this. ( this forum is the only Nordhavn Forum
that is
open to the > > public).> >> > For instance, The Selene Owners Forum
has
recently had a lengthy > > dialogue> > about bilge odors, apparently
caused by
plumbing issues with their > > vented> > loops. I don't know if
Nordhavn
owners discuss similar issues on their> > forum.> >> > There was
another
discussion about a swim step ladder hatch( and > > cracks in> > the
fiberglass
from water invading the PLYWOOD core) that I did not > > see the> >
Selene
Factory fully explain or state that they have corrected this > >
design> >
issue. Here again, I do not know If Nordhavn owners have similar> >
design/build issues, because their forum is closed ( and the owners
make
a> > good case for keeping it closed)> >> > Selene Owners seem to
like the
fact that prospective owners can > > listen in> > and ask questions
in the
theory that it keeps the big boys honest, > > or at> > least gives
everyone a
sense of editorial justice.> >> > With that being said, Selene
founder Howard
Chen says he aspires to be> > committed to designing/ building/
evolving an
ever better boat.> > Part of that is how you handle warranty issues.
His
dealerships are> > independently owned as contrasted with Nordhavn,
which may
be the> > distinctive point which George Sass Sr. is referring to in
this > >
months Power> > Cruising article on Chinese Boat Building.> >> > Do
Nordhavn
owners have odor issues with their plumbing? If I don't > > do my> >
diligence, and buy a boat that is more suseptible ( we all know > >
that air>
flow is critical) than normal, my wife will never want to go
boating > >
and> > I'll be dead in the water without ever having left the dock.>
Please give me your thoughts everyone, this is an open letter,> >> >
OVER,> >>
David Evans> >> > On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard
Peter@petersheppard.com.au >> wrote:> >> >> What I see now is that
PUP now
has some legs. All we have to do is> >> filter out (in our minds at
least) the
barrow pushers, defenders,> >> Chicken Little's, theorists,
apologists, and
commercial interest > >> folk.> >> Their view is relevant to them,
so let it
be told anyway. We can't be> >> like the lady reporting to the
police about
the naked man next door > >> when> >> she observes the offence from
her step
ladder. Don't like it - > >> flick it,> >> or don't climb the
ladder.> >> May
I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first> >>
power
boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have > >>
treated> >>
myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere, >
and I>
will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have > >>
shaken> >> the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I
go after
only> >> having the boat for 22 months.> >> I know Jack s..t
about it all
- still, but am learning from sites > >> like> >> this (albeit with
filters
on)> >> What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert
back > >>
to the> >> original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to
this are
their> >> deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a
future >
Selene> >> 59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has
been shown
by > >> the> >> Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not
convinced this
is a > >> better> >> boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1
that in a
few short > >> years> >> it will be. Any takers?> >> In my view the
wonderful
trailblazing American people have lost their> >> hunger for business
and its
principles, and good times have made them> >> fat, arrogant, and
complacent.
Wall Street and geographically > >> challenged> >> prospective vice
president
candidates are a current testimony to > >> all of> >> this.> >> We can
theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is > >> clear.
I> >> bet
someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization > >>
right at> >>
this moment.> >> Ones man's view.> >> Peter> >>
_______________________________________________> >>
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power>
To
unsubscribe send email to> >>
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word> >>
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.>
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World> >>
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.> >
_______________________________________________> >
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power>
To
unsubscribe send email to> >
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word> >
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.>
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > >
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.> >
_______________________________________________> >
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power>
To
unsubscribe send email to> >
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word> >
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.>
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > >
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.>
_______________________________________________>
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power>
To
unsubscribe send email to> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com
with the word> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body
of the
message.> > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of
Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.>
Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with
Windows Live
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
Peter,
I believe I'd take a piece of that bet.
While there are a number of nice boats that are being (and have been) built
in both Taiwanese and mainland Chinese yards, there were/are also a lot of
dogs. The successful yards that are turning out quality boats are a result
of tight design and manufacturing controls from right here at home. Most
yards that didn't have that direction or didn't listen have gone by the
wayside and a few are still building dogs.
The Chinese may have been the "original masters of seafaring" but the
average guy that put your Nordhavn together has never been on a boat - in
the water. That's not to say he isn't a good carpenter or electrician but
you wouldn't even recognize your boat if it had been built there without
someone from Nordhavn constantly directing the process. Their "innate
business skills" are to be admired, but as an owner you would probably not
want that to have played to big a part in building your boat - think
substitution of cheaper materials by someone who had never owned or
maintained a boat or even worked on one that had been used before.
As Brian just said, it's Labor cost. You can bet that Nordhavn's would be
built here in the US were it not for the difference in labor cost and
environmental controls.
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca
Sent: Friday, 14 November, 2008 12:24
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker boats
Just wanted to say that in my opinion, it is a shame to hear this attitude
towards North Amreican builders.
Boats are being built in China for one reason only...LABOR COST!
A typical 50 footer has roughly 15000-20000 man hours in the build. Do the
math!
I believe our economy and manufacturing sectors wouldn't be hurting so badly
if more people supported local industry to give back a little to the country
that gave them so much!
Just my opinion.....
Brian
Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "David Evans" highpressure@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:38:16
To: Passagemaking Under Power
Listpassagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker boats
Peter,
That is an interesting bet. I follow the Selene Owners Forum, and I attempt
to learn as much as possible about Nordhavn and their systems as possible
without access to the Nordhavn's Owners Forum, by following forums such as
this. ( this forum is the only Nordhavn Forum that is open to the public).
For instance, The Selene Owners Forum has recently had a lengthy dialogue
about bilge odors, apparently caused by plumbing issues with their vented
loops. I don't know if Nordhavn owners discuss similar issues on their
forum.
There was another discussion about a swim step ladder hatch( and cracks in
the fiberglass from water invading the PLYWOOD core) that I did not see the
Selene Factory fully explain or state that they have corrected this design
issue. Here again, I do not know If Nordhavn owners have similar
design/build issues, because their forum is closed ( and the owners make a
good case for keeping it closed)
Selene Owners seem to like the fact that prospective owners can listen in
and ask questions in the theory that it keeps the big boys honest, or at
least gives everyone a sense of editorial justice.
With that being said, Selene founder Howard Chen says he aspires to be
committed to designing/ building/ evolving an ever better boat.
Part of that is how you handle warranty issues. His dealerships are
independently owned as contrasted with Nordhavn, which may be the
distinctive point which George Sass Sr. is referring to in this months Power
Cruising article on Chinese Boat Building.
Do Nordhavn owners have odor issues with their plumbing? If I don't do my
diligence, and buy a boat that is more suseptible ( we all know that air
flow is critical) than normal, my wife will never want to go boating and
I'll be dead in the water without ever having left the dock.
Please give me your thoughts everyone, this is an open letter,
OVER,
David Evans
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard <Peter@petersheppard.com.au
wrote:
What I see now is that PUP now has some legs. All we have to do is
filter out (in our minds at least) the barrow pushers, defenders,
Chicken Little's, theorists, apologists, and commercial interest folk.
Their view is relevant to them, so let it be told anyway. We can't be
like the lady reporting to the police about the naked man next door when
she observes the offence from her step ladder. Don't like it - flick it,
or don't climb the ladder.
May I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first
power boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have treated
myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere, and I
will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have shaken
the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I go after only
having the boat for 22 months.
I know Jack s..t about it all - still, but am learning from sites like
this (albeit with filters on)
What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert back to the
original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to this are their
deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a future Selene
59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has been shown by the
Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not convinced this is a better
boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1 that in a few short years
it will be. Any takers?
In my view the wonderful trailblazing American people have lost their
hunger for business and its principles, and good times have made them
fat, arrogant, and complacent. Wall Street and geographically challenged
prospective vice president candidates are a current testimony to all of
this.
We can theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is clear. I
bet someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization right at
this moment.
Ones man's view.
Peter
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
What about finding a great hull that has proven performance and send it
to Mexico to be refurbished?
Bo
-----Original Message-----
From:
passagemaking-under-power-bounces+bleonard=eldoradobeachclub.com@lists.s
amurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces+bleonard=eldoradobeachclub.com
@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of John Marshall
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 3:35 PM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker boats
I'm not sure manufacturers are saying the boat is better quality
because its built in China, only that some quality brands are built
there.
In fact, from everything I understand, its been a long, slow climb to
get Asia boat quality up to snuff. But Grand Banks (Malaysia) and the
various Taiwanese manufacturers have had a long time to figure it out.
(Remember the early CHB's and the like?)
It's the Taiwanese who have now taken that talent to mainland China by
creating subsidiaries there, by putting their people in charge, and
have brought the mainland factories up to quality standards ten times
faster than it originally took them.
The only counter-example I've ever heard is the Nordhavn 40, which was
built in the US before moving offshore. The Asian built N40's are
regarded by most N40 owners I've talked to as superior, although a
portion of that is likely due to design and materials improvements
that occurred during the transfer.
From my perspective, its all about lower cost, and not taking a
significant quality PENALTY for Asia build.
John
On Nov 14, 2008, at 1:48 PM, bob england wrote:
You're exactly right about boats being built overseas because of the
cost.
Boats are not the only thing, and this is not a recent occurrence.
After ww2
the new Browning Company (firearms) had been manufacturing the
Auto5, a semi
auto shotgun here in the good ole USA. It was labor and machine
intensive.
But, the Belgians, after the war, had a serious surplus of labor and
machinery
suited to building firearms. Browning contracted with them for the
Auto5, and
made lots of them. The Springfield gun was better quality but the
Belgium gun
was WAY cheaper to build. SO, browning held up the Belgium built gun
as being
superior (advertizing) and sold the crap out of them. Later, when
Europe
finally got back on it's feet, manufaturing went to japan, you
guessed it,
cheaper. The Japaneze gun was better in every way but was a hard
sell for
American gun buyers. Boat companies doing Binness overseas are no
different
than John Browning, they gotta make a profit, but touting the
product as
better thru advertizing hype doesn't set well with me, in guns or
boats.>
From: johnamar1101@gmail.com> To: brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca;
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008
12:40:28
-0800> Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building
passagemaker
boats> > No doubt in my mind, if I could buy a similar quality boat
for the >
same money that was build in North America, I'd buy the North
American > built
one. I'd do it even if it was a few percent more expensive.> >
Unfortunately,
the difference isn't a few percent. And cost is a very > big deal
when it
comes to buying a passagemaker. Boats remain > extremely labor
intensive.> >
The real trick is to design a boat that requires very little labor
to > build.
A snap together boat or something. That would wash out most of > the
labor
difference.> > John Marshall> > On Nov 14, 2008, at 12:23 PM,
brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca wrote:> > > Just wanted to say that in
my opinion,
it is a shame to hear this > > attitude towards North Amreican
builders.> >> >
Boats are being built in China for one reason only...LABOR COST!> >>
A
typical 50 footer has roughly 15000-20000 man hours in the build. >
Do the
math!> >> > I believe our economy and manufacturing sectors wouldn't
be
hurting > > so badly if more people supported local industry to give
back a >
little to the country that gave them so much!> >> > Just my
opinion.....> >>
Brian> > Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry> >> >
-----Original Message-----> > From: "David Evans"
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:38:16> > To: Passagemaking Under Power
List<passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com > > >> > Subject:
Re: [PUP]
What the future holds for building passagemaker > > boats> >> >> >
Peter,> >>
That is an interesting bet. I follow the Selene Owners Forum, and I
attempt> > to learn as much as possible about Nordhavn and their
systems as >
possible> > without access to the Nordhavn's Owners Forum, by
following
forums > > such as> > this. ( this forum is the only Nordhavn Forum
that is
open to the > > public).> >> > For instance, The Selene Owners Forum
has
recently had a lengthy > > dialogue> > about bilge odors, apparently
caused by
plumbing issues with their > > vented> > loops. I don't know if
Nordhavn
owners discuss similar issues on their> > forum.> >> > There was
another
discussion about a swim step ladder hatch( and > > cracks in> > the
fiberglass
from water invading the PLYWOOD core) that I did not > > see the> >
Selene
Factory fully explain or state that they have corrected this > >
design> >
issue. Here again, I do not know If Nordhavn owners have similar> >
design/build issues, because their forum is closed ( and the owners
make
a> > good case for keeping it closed)> >> > Selene Owners seem to
like the
fact that prospective owners can > > listen in> > and ask questions
in the
theory that it keeps the big boys honest, > > or at> > least gives
everyone a
sense of editorial justice.> >> > With that being said, Selene
founder Howard
Chen says he aspires to be> > committed to designing/ building/
evolving an
ever better boat.> > Part of that is how you handle warranty issues.
His
dealerships are> > independently owned as contrasted with Nordhavn,
which may
be the> > distinctive point which George Sass Sr. is referring to in
this > >
months Power> > Cruising article on Chinese Boat Building.> >> > Do
Nordhavn
owners have odor issues with their plumbing? If I don't > > do my> >
diligence, and buy a boat that is more suseptible ( we all know > >
that air>
flow is critical) than normal, my wife will never want to go
boating > >
and> > I'll be dead in the water without ever having left the dock.>
Please give me your thoughts everyone, this is an open letter,> >> >
OVER,> >>
David Evans> >> > On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard
Peter@petersheppard.com.au >> wrote:> >> >> What I see now is that
PUP now
has some legs. All we have to do is> >> filter out (in our minds at
least) the
barrow pushers, defenders,> >> Chicken Little's, theorists,
apologists, and
commercial interest > >> folk.> >> Their view is relevant to them,
so let it
be told anyway. We can't be> >> like the lady reporting to the
police about
the naked man next door > >> when> >> she observes the offence from
her step
ladder. Don't like it - > >> flick it,> >> or don't climb the
ladder.> >> May
I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first> >>
power
boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have > >>
treated> >>
myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere, >
and I>
will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have > >>
shaken> >> the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I
go after
only> >> having the boat for 22 months.> >> I know Jack s..t
about it all
- still, but am learning from sites > >> like> >> this (albeit with
filters
on)> >> What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert
back > >>
to the> >> original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to
this are
their> >> deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a
future >
Selene> >> 59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has
been shown
by > >> the> >> Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not
convinced this
is a > >> better> >> boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1
that in a
few short > >> years> >> it will be. Any takers?> >> In my view the
wonderful
trailblazing American people have lost their> >> hunger for business
and its
principles, and good times have made them> >> fat, arrogant, and
complacent.
Wall Street and geographically > >> challenged> >> prospective vice
president
candidates are a current testimony to > >> all of> >> this.> >> We can
theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is > >> clear.
I> >> bet
someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization > >>
right at> >>
this moment.> >> Ones man's view.> >> Peter> >>
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