For the people that are taking pieces of Peter's bet, recall that his original wager was that Selene (made in China) will be building a better boat than Nordhavn (made in China) in a few years. Mainland China versus Mainland China for manufacturing. But, relative to the interesting part of Peter's bet, its Taiwan versus US design teams. Also differences in marketing teams. All Nordhavn (PAE) design is done in the US by Southern California natives. It is an extremely US-centric company, with the plusses and minuses that come with that. The Selene design is done by Howard Chen. Howard was born and educated in Taiwan, although his factory and presumably design facility is now located near Hong Kong. And to Jon's point, the reason that the Nordhavns that come out of China are good is exactly what he suggests... its the experienced Taiwanese builder (South Coast) and his people who moved to China, along with US-based PAE and their people watching closely to make sure of it. (Some Nordhavns are still built in Taiwan.) Which is why a one-time builder/buyer can't just go over there and build their boat. The currently successful model only works with large- scale production and a closely coordinated supporting staff of program managers and engineers/architects from outside Mainland China. John On Nov 14, 2008, at 2:47 PM, Jon Hill wrote: > Peter, > > I believe I'd take a piece of that bet. > > While there are a number of nice boats that are being (and have > been) built > in both Taiwanese and mainland Chinese yards, there were/are also a > lot of > dogs. The successful yards that are turning out quality boats are a > result > of tight design and manufacturing controls from right here at home. > Most > yards that didn't have that direction or didn't listen have gone by > the > wayside and a few are still building dogs. > > The Chinese may have been the "original masters of seafaring" but the > average guy that put your Nordhavn together has never been on a boat > - in > the water. That's not to say he isn't a good carpenter or > electrician but > you wouldn't even recognize your boat if it had been built there > without > someone from Nordhavn constantly directing the process. Their "innate > business skills" are to be admired, but as an owner you would > probably not > want that to have played to big a part in building your boat - think > substitution of cheaper materials by someone who had never owned or > maintained a boat or even worked on one that had been used before. > > As Brian just said, it's Labor cost. You can bet that Nordhavn's > would be > built here in the US were it not for the difference in labor cost and > environmental controls. > > Jon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com > [mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On > Behalf Of > brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca > Sent: Friday, 14 November, 2008 12:24 > To: Passagemaking Under Power List > Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker > boats > > Just wanted to say that in my opinion, it is a shame to hear this > attitude > towards North Amreican builders. > > Boats are being built in China for one reason only...LABOR COST! > > A typical 50 footer has roughly 15000-20000 man hours in the build. > Do the > math! > > I believe our economy and manufacturing sectors wouldn't be hurting > so badly > if more people supported local industry to give back a little to the > country > that gave them so much! > > Just my opinion..... > > Brian > Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "David Evans" <highpressure@gmail.com> > > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:38:16 > To: Passagemaking Under Power > List<passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> > Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker > boats > > > Peter, > > That is an interesting bet. I follow the Selene Owners Forum, and I > attempt > to learn as much as possible about Nordhavn and their systems as > possible > without access to the Nordhavn's Owners Forum, by following forums > such as > this. ( this forum is the only Nordhavn Forum that is open to the > public). > > For instance, The Selene Owners Forum has recently had a lengthy > dialogue > about bilge odors, apparently caused by plumbing issues with their > vented > loops. I don't know if Nordhavn owners discuss similar issues on their > forum. > > There was another discussion about a swim step ladder hatch( and > cracks in > the fiberglass from water invading the PLYWOOD core) that I did not > see the > Selene Factory fully explain or state that they have corrected this > design > issue. Here again, I do not know If Nordhavn owners have similar > design/build issues, because their forum is closed ( and the owners > make a > good case for keeping it closed) > > Selene Owners seem to like the fact that prospective owners can > listen in > and ask questions in the theory that it keeps the big boys honest, > or at > least gives everyone a sense of editorial justice. > > With that being said, Selene founder Howard Chen says he aspires to be > committed to designing/ building/ evolving an ever better boat. > Part of that is how you handle warranty issues. His dealerships are > independently owned as contrasted with Nordhavn, which may be the > distinctive point which George Sass Sr. is referring to in this > months Power > Cruising article on Chinese Boat Building. > > Do Nordhavn owners have odor issues with their plumbing? If I don't > do my > diligence, and buy a boat that is more suseptible ( we all know > that air > flow is critical) than normal, my wife will never want to go boating > and > I'll be dead in the water without ever having left the dock. > > Please give me your thoughts everyone, this is an open letter, > > OVER, > > David Evans > > On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard <Peter@petersheppard.com.au >> wrote: > >> What I see now is that PUP now has some legs. All we have to do is >> filter out (in our minds at least) the barrow pushers, defenders, >> Chicken Little's, theorists, apologists, and commercial interest >> folk. >> Their view is relevant to them, so let it be told anyway. We can't be >> like the lady reporting to the police about the naked man next door >> when >> she observes the offence from her step ladder. Don't like it - >> flick it, >> or don't climb the ladder. >> May I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first >> power boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have >> treated >> myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere, >> and I >> will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have >> shaken >> the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I go after >> only >> having the boat for 22 months. >> I know Jack s..t about it all - still, but am learning from sites >> like >> this (albeit with filters on) >> What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert back >> to the >> original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to this are their >> deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a future >> Selene >> 59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has been shown by >> the >> Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not convinced this is a >> better >> boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1 that in a few short >> years >> it will be. Any takers? >> In my view the wonderful trailblazing American people have lost their >> hunger for business and its principles, and good times have made them >> fat, arrogant, and complacent. Wall Street and geographically >> challenged >> prospective vice president candidates are a current testimony to >> all of >> this. >> We can theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is >> clear. I >> bet someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization >> right at >> this moment. >> Ones man's view. >> Peter >> _______________________________________________ >> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power >> >> To unsubscribe send email to >> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word >> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. >> >> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World >> Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, > formerly known as Trawler World Productions. > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, > formerly known as Trawler World Productions. > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

Some years ago I had a conversation with Jim Leishman during which he told me the cost of one of his boats was split roughly into thirds - a third each for labor, materials and overhead with 4% left over for profit. If labor cost is twice as much here as it is in China, we wouldn't be able to afford the Nordhavn 55 we have on order. In that case, no one would win. We wouldn't have our boat, Lugger wouldn't be selling four engines (two gensets, main and wing), and all the other suppliers wouldn't be providing products, etc. Nobody supports domestic industry more than me but they've got to be competitive. -----Original Message----- From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com [mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 1:24 PM To: Passagemaking Under Power List Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker boats Just wanted to say that in my opinion, it is a shame to hear this attitude towards North Amreican builders. Boats are being built in China for one reason only...LABOR COST! A typical 50 footer has roughly 15000-20000 man hours in the build. Do the math! I believe our economy and manufacturing sectors wouldn't be hurting so badly if more people supported local industry to give back a little to the country that gave them so much! Just my opinion..... Brian Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "David Evans" <highpressure@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:38:16 To: Passagemaking Under Power List<passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker boats Peter, That is an interesting bet. I follow the Selene Owners Forum, and I attempt to learn as much as possible about Nordhavn and their systems as possible without access to the Nordhavn's Owners Forum, by following forums such as this. ( this forum is the only Nordhavn Forum that is open to the public). For instance, The Selene Owners Forum has recently had a lengthy dialogue about bilge odors, apparently caused by plumbing issues with their vented loops. I don't know if Nordhavn owners discuss similar issues on their forum. There was another discussion about a swim step ladder hatch( and cracks in the fiberglass from water invading the PLYWOOD core) that I did not see the Selene Factory fully explain or state that they have corrected this design issue. Here again, I do not know If Nordhavn owners have similar design/build issues, because their forum is closed ( and the owners make a good case for keeping it closed) Selene Owners seem to like the fact that prospective owners can listen in and ask questions in the theory that it keeps the big boys honest, or at least gives everyone a sense of editorial justice. With that being said, Selene founder Howard Chen says he aspires to be committed to designing/ building/ evolving an ever better boat. Part of that is how you handle warranty issues. His dealerships are independently owned as contrasted with Nordhavn, which may be the distinctive point which George Sass Sr. is referring to in this months Power Cruising article on Chinese Boat Building. Do Nordhavn owners have odor issues with their plumbing? If I don't do my diligence, and buy a boat that is more suseptible ( we all know that air flow is critical) than normal, my wife will never want to go boating and I'll be dead in the water without ever having left the dock. Please give me your thoughts everyone, this is an open letter, OVER, David Evans On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard <Peter@petersheppard.com.au > wrote: > What I see now is that PUP now has some legs. All we have to do is > filter out (in our minds at least) the barrow pushers, defenders, > Chicken Little's, theorists, apologists, and commercial interest folk. > Their view is relevant to them, so let it be told anyway. We can't be > like the lady reporting to the police about the naked man next door when > she observes the offence from her step ladder. Don't like it - flick it, > or don't climb the ladder. > May I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first > power boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have treated > myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere, and I > will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have shaken > the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I go after only > having the boat for 22 months. > I know Jack s..t about it all - still, but am learning from sites like > this (albeit with filters on) > What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert back to the > original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to this are their > deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a future Selene > 59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has been shown by the > Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not convinced this is a better > boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1 that in a few short years > it will be. Any takers? > In my view the wonderful trailblazing American people have lost their > hunger for business and its principles, and good times have made them > fat, arrogant, and complacent. Wall Street and geographically challenged > prospective vice president candidates are a current testimony to all of > this. > We can theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is clear. I > bet someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization right at > this moment. > Ones man's view. > Peter > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. _______________________________________________ http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power To unsubscribe send email to passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. _______________________________________________ http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power To unsubscribe send email to passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

An American once complained to the chinese at a trade conference that the chinese were stealing all their jobs in the footware sector and the chinese answer was "tell the Americans to stop buying from us as they are the main customers" I live in Asia I know how hard it is, but many times like the refurbishiment of my apartment it can be a case of doing it again and again untill it is right. so live with it this is life now. Regards David Just Earth Business www.justearthbusiness.com --- On Sat, 11/15/08, Robert Miller <rlmiller3@cox.net> wrote: From: Robert Miller <rlmiller3@cox.net> Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker boats To: brian.smyth@ns.sympatico.ca, "Passagemaking Under Power List" <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> Date: Saturday, November 15, 2008, 4:28 AM I'm with Brian. Is there any builders in the US that can build a 50ft steel, glass trawler, passagemaker ready to go for $300,000! I for one would be ready to purchase! Robert > Just wanted to say that in my opinion, it is a shame to hear this attitude > towards North Amreican builders. > > Boats are being built in China for one reason only...LABOR COST! _______________________________________________ http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power To unsubscribe send email to passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

John, You wrote: "All Nordhavn (PAE) design is done in the US by Southern California natives. It is an extremely US-centric company, with the plusses and minuses that come with that. The Selene design is done by Howard Chen. Howard was born and educated in Taiwan, although his factory and presumably design facility is now located near Hong Kong." Interestingly, I met with Howard Chen just yesterday -- in Seattle, WA. I will give you that Nordhavn is an extremely US-centric company. As a native of San Diego, CA (can't get much more SoCal than that)-- Selene markets to the entire world. Yes, he started in Taiwan, and now builds in China. Yet, he takes a personal interest in each and every Selene built. He meets personally with each and every owner and does his best to ensure that each Selene sold meets the buyer's desires and expectations. If you take a look at the Selene Owners web site and look at the distribution of Selenes, you will find them proudly owned around the world -- openly, displaying our warts and blemishes on an owners forum to which anyone can subscribe. I dearly would love to see the Nordhavn or Krogen family step up to the open communications of warts, blemishes -- and love of our boats that the Selene community has done. We talk about the issues, and the wonderful benefits of our boats -- openly and for all to see. I think it is only the Selene community that has the trust in our builder and in our owners that welcomes all -- warts and all. Design done in the USA -- wonderful, if you still believe that USA is the best country in the world. Selene, if you want a boat built to your design and interest -- you betcha! If you want a boat that is constantly improving based on continuous process improvement? Selene and Howard Chen is your answer. Kind regards, Dave Pabst M/V DUESIE

Actually the Krogen list is open and always has been. When I get to a computer later I'll share the list address. John Ford KK44 Feisty Lady Sent from my iPhone. On Nov 14, 2008, at 23:45, "David B. Pabst" <davep@entersource.com> wrote: > John, > > You wrote: "All Nordhavn (PAE) design is done in the US by Southern > California > natives. It is an extremely US-centric company, with the plusses and > minuses > that come with that. The Selene design is done by Howard Chen. > Howard was > born and educated in Taiwan, although his factory and presumably > design > facility is now located near Hong Kong." > > Interestingly, I met with Howard Chen just yesterday -- in Seattle, > WA. I > will give you that Nordhavn is an extremely US-centric company. As > a native > of San Diego, CA (can't get much more SoCal than that)-- Selene > markets to > the entire world. Yes, he started in Taiwan, and now builds in > China. Yet, > he takes a personal interest in each and every Selene built. He meets > personally with each and every owner and does his best to ensure > that each > Selene sold meets the buyer's desires and expectations. If you take > a look > at the Selene Owners web site and look at the distribution of > Selenes, you > will find them proudly owned around the world -- openly, displaying > our > warts and blemishes on an owners forum to which anyone can subscribe. > > I dearly would love to see the Nordhavn or Krogen family step up to > the open > communications of warts, blemishes -- and love of our boats that the > Selene > community has done. We talk about the issues, and the wonderful > benefits of > our boats -- openly and for all to see. I think it is only the Selene > community that has the trust in our builder and in our owners that > welcomes > all -- warts and all. > > Design done in the USA -- wonderful, if you still believe that USA > is the > best country in the world. Selene, if you want a boat built to your > design > and interest -- you betcha! If you want a boat that is constantly > improving > based on continuous process improvement? Selene and Howard Chen is > your > answer. > > > Kind regards, > Dave Pabst > M/V DUESIE > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

The Willard Boat Owners List is also open to all. The List was founded in March, 2000 and currently has 586 members. We have not found that opening the List up to the public has in any way compromised the integrity of the group. Most non-Willard owners will become bored with the discussions of the idiosyncrasies of the Willard brand, but over half the discussions are about trawlers in general. Anyone interested can sign up at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/willardboatowners/ Patrick Willard 40PH ALOHA La Paz, MX ----- Original Message ---- From: John Ford <johnpford@mac.com> To: Passagemaking Under Power List <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> Cc: Passagemaking Under Power List <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 4:37:18 AM Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building passagemaker boats Actually the Krogen list is open and always has been. When I get to a computer later I'll share the list address.

As a Nordhavn owner I do prefer the list be closed, not to keep secrets, but zero in on strictly information on the boats themselves. Its much easier to go through five entries you are in than twenty-five your not. This list is used by most of the Nordhavn listees, so everyone is getting their general information. Danny Fletcher N4669 On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Patrick Gerety <alohaboat@yahoo.com>wrote: > The Willard Boat Owners List is also open to all. The List was founded in > March, 2000 and currently has 586 members. We have not found that opening > the > List up to the public has in any way compromised the integrity of the > group. > Most non-Willard owners will become bored with the discussions of the > idiosyncrasies of the Willard brand, but over half the discussions are > about > trawlers in general. Anyone interested can sign up at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/willardboatowners/ > > Patrick > Willard 40PH > ALOHA > La Paz, MX > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: John Ford <johnpford@mac.com> > To: Passagemaking Under Power List > <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> > Cc: Passagemaking Under Power > List <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> > Sent: Saturday, November > 15, 2008 4:37:18 AM > Subject: Re: [PUP] What the future holds for building > passagemaker boats > > Actually the Krogen list is open and always has been. When > I get to a > computer later I'll share the list address. > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. > > -- Danny and Kris Fletcher Nordhavn 4669 361-533-3373(Cell)

Thanks, John. I stand corrected. Regards, Dave Actually the Krogen list is open and always has been. When I get to a computer later I'll share the list address. John Ford KK44 Feisty Lady

As to a boat being built to my design and interest, just for the record, our Nordhavn 55 was just started last month. To date, there have been 15 pages of change orders detailing 174 items redesigned to fit our specific needs. My last conference call with our Project Manager will take place in a little over a week where we'll finalize the last 20-24 items that we want changed. While I believe builders such as Nordhavn, KK and others keep pricing reasonable by building pretty much "stock" boats, I've never run into any resistance from the folks at Nordhavn over my requests. Sincerely yours, Alex Cooke m/v Sea Sea In the mold somewhere in China (SNIP) Design done in the USA -- wonderful, if you still believe that USA is the best country in the world. Selene, if you want a boat built to your design and interest -- you betcha! If you want a boat that is constantly improving based on continuous process improvement? Selene and Howard Chen is your answer. Kind regards, Dave Pabst M/V DUESIE _______________________________________________ http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power To unsubscribe send email to passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

Peter, I am trying to clarify exactly what you are saying about the respect the future Selene owner is receiving. Are you wishing that "out of warranty owners of Nordhavns receive as much respect as future Selene owners"? Thanks, Dave Evans On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:58 AM, Peter Sheppard <Peter@petersheppard.com.au > wrote: > What I see now is that PUP now has some legs. All we have to do is > filter out (in our minds at least) the barrow pushers, defenders, > Chicken Little's, theorists, apologists, and commercial interest folk. > Their view is relevant to them, so let it be told anyway. We can't be > like the lady reporting to the police about the naked man next door when > she observes the offence from her step ladder. Don't like it - flick it, > or don't climb the ladder. > May I indulge myself by stating I have a Nordhavn 55. It is my first > power boat. At 65 yrs of age this is the best indulgence I have treated > myself with. I love it with a passion. It will take me everywhere, and I > will circumnavigate the world (starting next July). I will have shaken > the boat down with 12,500 nm of coastal cruising before I go after only > having the boat for 22 months. > I know Jack s..t about it all - still, but am learning from sites like > this (albeit with filters on) > What I feel is that the future of building boats will revert back to the > original masters of seafaring - the Chinese. Added to this are their > deep cultural and innate business skills. I've just had a future Selene > 59 owner on board, and I drool at the respect he has been shown by the > Chinese owner of the company. However I'm not convinced this is a better > boat than I have today, but I will lay 20 to 1 that in a few short years > it will be. Any takers? > In my view the wonderful trailblazing American people have lost their > hunger for business and its principles, and good times have made them > fat, arrogant, and complacent. Wall Street and geographically challenged > prospective vice president candidates are a current testimony to all of > this. > We can theorize, prophesize, and fantasize, but the future is clear. I > bet someone is China is doing a PhD on anti roll stabilization right at > this moment. > Ones man's view. > Peter > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.