Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick.
I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future.
Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don’t.
I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me.
I will check with the inria lawyer first.
Stef
I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way.
It is impressive to see how fragile the community is.
Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation!
Cheers,
Alexandre
On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com wrote:
I support it, too.
The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :)
So, I suggest this:
- we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail).
- we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now.
Cheers,
Doru
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano estebanlm@gmail.com wrote:
I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.
Esteban
On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont stephan@stack.nl wrote:
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin
and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
"Every thing has its own flow"
--
,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
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Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the
community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project
selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export
Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2],
Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the
list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to
such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC.
Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade
study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like
between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase
uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve
his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not
quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such
removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that
right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for
stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on
GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards
Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool
[2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick.
I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future.
Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don't.
I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me.
I will check with the inria lawyer first.
Stef
I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way.
It is impressive to see how fragile the community is.
Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation!
Cheers,
Alexandre
On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com wrote:
I support it, too.
The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :)
So, I suggest this:
- we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail).
- we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now.
Cheers,
Doru
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano estebanlm@gmail.com wrote:
I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.
Esteban
On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont stephan@stack.nl wrote:
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin
and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
"Every thing has its own flow"
--
,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
--
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Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek janko.mivsek@eranova.si wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the
community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project
selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export
Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2],
Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the
list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to
such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC.
Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade
study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like
between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase
uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve
his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not
quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such
removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that
right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for
stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on
GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards
Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool
[2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Lol.
Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed.
Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there
are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the
language of their choice).
Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission.
And therefore Stef was absolutely correct.
Case closed.
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
Hi Janko,
So you overrode Stef’s decision, left the project in, and what happened. Did we get a Newspeak / Smalltalk translator?
I’m not sure I agree with Igor here. If someone wanted to do a translator to some other language, that might be cool. Having more ways to integrate with other languages may not be a bad idea. I don’t think it would be a project for a student or something that could be properly accomplished during a summer. But I guess that doesn’t matter, a summer could get you 80% of the way there.
This seems to me to be a difference of opinion and not an ethical lapse or an abuse of power. Stef was right in asking for the suggestion to be removed. You were right to disagree. In both cases it was a judgment call. It seems to me that since the project stayed on the site, that Stef was also quite reasonable. He listened to your objection, he heard your opinion, (he probably disagreed with you), and he let the idea stay on the site. The only thing that may have made this better would have been Stef requesting the removal publically. This transparency would have come at the risk of alienating the Newspeak community which in my mind is still part of the Smalltalk community, and one of the better contributors of code for all of us (considering their current work on Cog and Spur). In that light, I understand the desire to do it privately.
In this case, in my opinion, everyone acted ethically. There is no blame to be found.
All the best,
Ron Teitelbaum
Head Of Engineering
3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting
mailto:ron@3dicc.com ron@3dicc.com
Follow Me On Twitter: https://twitter.com/RonTeitelbaum @RonTeitelbaum
http://www.3dicc.com/ www.3dicc.com
https://www.google.com/+3dicc https://www.google.com/+3dicc
From: Esug-list [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Igor Stasenko
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 12:15 PM
To: Janko Mivšek
Cc: ESUG Mailing list; Pharo Development List; Squeak
Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek janko.mivsek@eranova.si wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the
community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project
selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export
Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2],
Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the
list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to
such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC.
Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade
study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like
between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase
uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve
his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not
quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such
removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that
right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for
stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on
GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards
Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool
[2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Lol.
Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed.
Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the language of their choice).
Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. And therefore Stef was absolutely correct.
Case closed.
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
Hi happy (or sad like me today) Smalltalkers and friends for most of you.
Thank for the support of some of you. I think that this story is an amazing press
for Smalltalk. I’m still shocked that people do not realise how it can be bad for all of us.
Now I have my part of responsibility and I should not have replied to such aggression.
But I have one rule in life is to never let people lie about me and my projects.
Since I feel that I cannot do much beside being systematically insulted
without the right to say anything I will quit the GSOC mentor mailing-list,
I will not propose any topics this year and I will set up a rule to any mails with Janko or
GSOC to be trashed.
I’m immensely sad for the students that work with me and all the people that trust me and
judge me on my acts since all these years.
Fools and idiots won. I lost no problem. I prefer to focus on creating good energy.
No need to reply because my filter is on and delete everything automatically.
Stef
In these moments, I wonder why I did not went in ruby.
On 10 Feb 2014, at 17:38, Janko Mivšek janko.mivsek@eranova.si wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the
community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project
selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export
Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2],
Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the
list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to
such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC.
Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade
study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like
between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase
uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve
his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not
quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such
removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that
right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for
stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on
GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards
Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool
[2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick.
I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future.
Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don't.
I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me.
I will check with the inria lawyer first.
Stef
I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way.
It is impressive to see how fragile the community is.
Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation!
Cheers,
Alexandre
On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com wrote:
I support it, too.
The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :)
So, I suggest this:
- we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail).
- we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now.
Cheers,
Doru
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano estebanlm@gmail.com wrote:
I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.
Esteban
On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont stephan@stack.nl wrote:
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin
and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
"Every thing has its own flow"
--
,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
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Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was explicitly
asked to participate. I myself noted that Newspeak is sufficiently
different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a different
language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be inclusive of
anything in the Smalltalk family.
So I proposed a few projects none of which were accepted. I think that's
fine - no one has to agree with me on what is important or interesting.
I also think that saying that Newspeak is outside the Smalltalk "tent" is a
legitimate position, even if I may disagree. I know may others in the
Smalltalk community have felt that Newspeak, while different, is part of
the family. After all, I and I my colleagues have been invited to speak
about Newspeak at Smalltalk conferences several times.
I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the recent
goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have done what I
can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community (you know who you
are) and will continue to do so.
However, after 2010 I did not participate in GSoc, since it was clear that
my ideas did not coincide with those of the wider Smalltalk community.
I won't say any more on the topic. I wish you all the best, and I'm glad
the GSoc effort continues.
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Igor Stasenko siguctua@gmail.com wrote:
On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek janko.mivsek@eranova.si wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the
community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project
selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export
Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2],
Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the
list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to
such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC.
Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade
study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like
between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase
uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve
his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not
quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such
removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that
right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for
stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on
GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards
Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool
[2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Lol.
Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed.
Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there
are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the
language of their choice).
Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission.
And therefore Stef was absolutely correct.
Case closed.
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
--
Cheers, Gilad
Now that's the worst outcome which came out of it.
Thanks, Janko.. i hope you feel better now.
On 10 February 2014 18:44, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.ducasse@inria.frwrote:
Hi happy (or sad like me today) Smalltalkers and friends for most of you.
Thank for the support of some of you. I think that this story is an
amazing press
for Smalltalk. I’m still shocked that people do not realise how it can be
bad for all of us.
Now I have my part of responsibility and I should not have replied to such
aggression.
But I have one rule in life is to never let people lie about me and my
projects.
Since I feel that I cannot do much beside being systematically insulted
without the right to say anything I will quit the GSOC mentor mailing-list,
I will not propose any topics this year and I will set up a rule to any
mails with Janko or
GSOC to be trashed.
I’m immensely sad for the students that work with me and all the people
that trust me and
judge me on my acts since all these years.
Fools and idiots won. I lost no problem. I prefer to focus on creating
good energy.
No need to reply because my filter is on and delete everything
automatically.
Stef
In these moments, I wonder why I did not went in ruby.
On 10 Feb 2014, at 17:38, Janko Mivšek janko.mivsek@eranova.si wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the
community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.
For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project
selection process.
Here is the story:
On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export
Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2],
Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the
list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to
such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC.
Of course I rejected such an order immediately.
Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade
study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like
between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase
uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve
his goal.
What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not
quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such
removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that
right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for
stipendiums.
In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on
GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.
Best regards
Janko
[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool
[2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas
Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko
but now this makes me sick.
I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the
future.
Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you
don't.
I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you
cannot have just words against me.
I will check with the inria lawyer first.
Stef
I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is
apparently alone to think that way.
It is impressive to see how fragile the community is.
Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult
situation!
Cheers,
Alexandre
On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com wrote:
I support it, too.
The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo
was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :)
So, I suggest this:
- we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at
the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is
going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more
structured, and not via mail).
- we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that
action happens now.
Cheers,
Doru
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <
estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
I support this, along with a general require that you keep this
discussion in private.
Esteban
On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont stephan@stack.nl wrote:
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin
and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring
organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
"Every thing has its own flow"
--
,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;.,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group.
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an email to smalltalk-gsoc-mentors+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
Cross-posting continues...
On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)
I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was
explicitly asked to participate. I myself noted that Newspeak is
sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a
different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be
inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even
share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us
Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done
through Newspeakish money, right?
[SNIP]
I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the
recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have
done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community
(you know who you are) and will continue to do so.
Cool!
The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming
all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other
communities (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our
community.
This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants
have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also
shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can
really... make a mess :)
3 timesRepeat: [
If you do though - that would be the true mark of leaders]
regards, Göran
PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest
his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap!
Move on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now
back to hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!
Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All,
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe goran@krampe.se wrote:
Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
Cross-posting continues...
On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)
I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was
explicitly asked to participate. I myself noted that Newspeak is
sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a
different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be
inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even
share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us
Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through
Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first
worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now
familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back
at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has
only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence
we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without
Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be
nearly as developed or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will
consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a
blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
[SNIP]
I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the
recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have
done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community
(you know who you are) and will continue to do so.
Cool!
The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming
all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities
(or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community.
This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants
have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also
shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can
really... make a mess :)
3 timesRepeat: [
If you do though - that would be the true mark of leaders]
regards, Göran
PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest his
soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move on,
have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to
hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!
Amen!
Eliot
On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All,
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe goran@krampe.se wrote:
Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
Cross-posting continues...
On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)
I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was
explicitly asked to participate. I myself noted that Newspeak is
sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a
different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be
inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even
share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us
Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through
Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first
worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now
familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back
at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has
only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence
we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without
Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be
nearly as developed or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will
consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a
blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not
(clearly it is).
The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak.
(else we should be naming it properly - ENUG).
So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run
and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk
projects under ESUG umbrella?
If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors,
who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.
[SNIP]
I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the
recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have
done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community
(you know who you are) and will continue to do so.
Cool!
The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming
all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities
(or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community.
This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants
have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also
shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can
really... make a mess :)
3 timesRepeat: [
If you do though - that would be the true mark of leaders]
regards, Göran
PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest
his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move
on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to
hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!
Amen!
Eliot
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--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.