Re: [Esug-list] [gsoc-mentors] Re: [Pharo-dev] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
:) Sorry, not very serious but still:
"Newspeak is a new programming language in the tradition of Self and
Smalltalk" [http://newspeaklanguage.org/]
"Pharo is a clean, innovative, open-source Smalltalk-inspired environment"
[http://www.pharo-project.org/home]
Should we ban Pharo projects because it's not Smalltalk, but only
"Smalltalk-inspired"? I guess Ruby can also call itself Smalltalk-inspired?
According to these definitions, Newspeak is even more Smalltalk-ish then
Pharo :)
And seriously, I think we discuss something else, not what Janko wanted to
say... But anyway, I think we should simply stop this discussion now, and
concentrate on our objectives (GSoC and others). And I hope some time later
the topic will calm down, Janko and Stéphane will find a way to revise
their positions towards collaboration, handshaking and even friendship for
benefits of Smalltalk and all IT community.
--
Best regards,
Dennis Schetinin
2014-02-11 2:56 GMT+04:00 Igor Stasenko siguctua@gmail.com:
On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All,
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe goran@krampe.se wrote:
Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
Cross-posting continues...
On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote:
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.
Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here)
I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was
explicitly asked to participate. I myself noted that Newspeak is
sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a
different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be
inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family.
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even
share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us
Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through
Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first
worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now
familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back
at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has
only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence
we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without
Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be
nearly as developed or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will
consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a
blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not
(clearly it is).
The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak.
(else we should be naming it properly - ENUG).
So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run
and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk
projects under ESUG umbrella?
If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors,
who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.
[SNIP]
I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the
recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have
done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community
(you know who you are) and will continue to do so.
Cool!
The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming
all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities
(or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community.
This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants
have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also
shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can
really... make a mess :)
3 timesRepeat: [
If you do though - that would be the true mark of leaders]
regards, Göran
PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest
his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move
on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to
hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha!
Amen!
Eliot
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
Hi Igor and all!
On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
[SNIP]
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell,
we even share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been
for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has
been done through Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I
first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form
there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create
Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog.
In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at
Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement
systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no
Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed
or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community
will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is
definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not
(clearly it is).
The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak.
(else we should be naming it properly - ENUG).
So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run
and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk
projects under ESUG umbrella?
Well, first of all I was actually not talking about that particular
incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make
that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a
family in general. Gilad should really feel that IMHO.
Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" -
hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself
and make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk!
And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have
globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"?
And the fact that Newspeak actually shares the VM with Pharo and
Squeak - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think?
Much stronger than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually
claims to be a Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be
compatible with Pharo which claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit!
Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just
getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :)
If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors,
who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.
Hehe, ok, PHP is NOT a Smalltalk. ;)
regards, Göran
PS. I am hacking on protobuf in Pharo 3.0 and noticed cool NB assembler
in some places - are such methods creeping into base libraries now? What
does that mean for other CPUs? Sorry, for changing subject - feel free
to reply under different subject.
On 11 February 2014 10:07, Göran Krampe goran@krampe.se wrote:
Hi Igor and all!
On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
[SNIP]
Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell,
we even share the VM!
And I am not sure people understand how important this has been
for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has
been done through Newspeakish money, right?
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I
first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form
there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create
Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog.
In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at
Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement
systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no
Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed
or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community
will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is
definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not
(clearly it is).
The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak.
(else we should be naming it properly - ENUG).
So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run
and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk
projects under ESUG umbrella?
Well, first of all I was actually not talking about that particular
incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make
that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a
family in general. Gilad should really feel that IMHO.
Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" -
hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and
make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk!
And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have
globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"?
And the fact that Newspeak actually shares the VM with Pharo and Squeak
- that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger
than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually claims to be a
Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which
claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit!
Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just
getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :)
Nothing philosophical here.
Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new
language.
Different syntax, different semantics.
The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any
difference.
There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms.
Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run
under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'?
And let me be clear: i am not against Newspeak or any other language or
person(s) who invested a lot into it and keep investing. They are doing
good things in exploring and pushing forward original ideas and enriching
our computing world.
But as to me it is clear example, where ESUG should draw a line.
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
Nothing philosophical here.
Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new
language.
Different syntax, different semantics.
The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any
difference.
There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms.
Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to
run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'?
I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would
be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization.
If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in
the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use
Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due
to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to
get into the program would be slimmer.
Paolo
+1
or would anybody seriously want to deny a Java/C#/Ruby/PHP/Cobol/youNameIt-to-Smalltalk converter written in Smalltalk from GSoC?
Helge
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Esug-list [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] Im Auftrag von Paolo Bonzini
Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. Februar 2014 17:14
An: Igor Stasenko; Göran Krampe
Cc: ESUG Mailing list; Pharo Development List; Squeak
Betreff: [Esug-list] Smalltalk dialects and GSoC
Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
Nothing philosophical here.
Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new
language.
Different syntax, different semantics.
The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any
difference.
There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms.
Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to
run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'?
I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization.
If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer.
Paolo
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
On 11.02.2014, at 17:14, Paolo Bonzini bonzini@gnu.org wrote:
Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
Nothing philosophical here.
Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new
language.
Different syntax, different semantics.
The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any
difference.
There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms.
Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to
run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'?
I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization.
If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer.
Paolo
How about a project for a new or extended Smalltalk VM? Written in non-Smalltalk, but running a Smalltalk, e.g. Squeak?
- Bert -
Il 11/02/2014 17:53, Bert Freudenberg ha scritto:
I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization.
If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it
in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use
Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due
to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to
get into the program would be slimmer.
How about a project for a new or extended Smalltalk VM? Written in
non-Smalltalk, but running a Smalltalk, e.g. Squeak?
Of course, everything must be considered on a case-by-case basis. There
is no hard and fast rule.
With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU
organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more
porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the same
opportunity.
Paolo
On 11 February 2014 18:08, Paolo Bonzini bonzini@gnu.org wrote:
Il 11/02/2014 17:53, Bert Freudenberg ha scritto:
I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be
eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization.
If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it
in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use
Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due
to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to
get into the program would be slimmer.
How about a project for a new or extended Smalltalk VM? Written in
non-Smalltalk, but running a Smalltalk, e.g. Squeak?
Of course, everything must be considered on a case-by-case basis. There
is no hard and fast rule.
Right. I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But you
have to draw it.. and once you did, you will always have chances to find
someone left aboard and screaming about bias and blatantly unethical
behavior, instead of peacefully discussing and providing arguments.
With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU
organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more porting
potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the same
opportunity.
No, i think any Smalltalk VM is clearly a good topic to run under ESUG
umbrella.
Paolo
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
Il 11/02/2014 18:29, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
Right. I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But
you have to draw it.. and once you did, you will always have chances to
find someone left aboard and screaming about bias and blatantly
unethical behavior, instead of peacefully discussing and providing
arguments.
With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU
organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more
porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the
same opportunity.
No, i think any Smalltalk VM is clearly a good topic to run under ESUG
umbrella.
Exactly---that would be my choice as GNU Smalltalk maintainer. Other
Smalltalk VMs are definitely welcome.
Paolo
On 2/11/2014 6:29 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But you
have to draw it
Hi Igor,
I want to draw your attention to the fact that this is
black-and-white thinking.
We don't need that in a dynamic environment, we can postpone the
decision of where that line is till way after we start running the code.
We can implement it in the debugger if an exception is risen and ignore
it if no exception is risen.
We can even decide to not implement it all and merely tweak the values
of variables in the debugger each and every every time we see an UHE, no
line needed at all then...
:-)