Re: [time-nuts] OT: leaching was, Alternative time interval interpolation technique
When they receive the request for the pdf they check to see what page
referred the request if it wasn't their site then they assume some other
web site leaching bandwidth. This other site pretends to serve the file but
in fact it is still served by them. This pretend site doesn't pay for the
bandwidth to serve the files, win for them lose for the unprotected server.
Nice try, but that's not the problem this time.
From the original message:
http://risorse.dei.polimi.it/digital/products/2010/High frequency,high time
resolution time-to-digital converter employing passive resonating
circuits.pdf
<http://risorse.dei.polimi.it/digital/products/2010/High%20frequency,high%20t
ime%20resolution%20time-to-digital%20converter%20employing%20passive%20resona
ting%20circuits.pdf>
The URL overflows a line and contains spaces. The second copy inside <> has
%20 where the spaces go. You are supposed to remove the line breaks and put
it back together.
The problem is that there is a missing space between "High frequency," and
"high time".
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
oh well no credit for me, but what happened to the missing space when so many
other spaces made it thru as %20 ?
----- Original Message ----
From: Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 8:27:09 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: leaching was, Alternative time interval
interpolation technique
When they receive the request for the pdf they check to see what page
referred the request if it wasn't their site then they assume some other
web site leaching bandwidth. This other site pretends to serve the file but
in fact it is still served by them. This pretend site doesn't pay for the
bandwidth to serve the files, win for them lose for the unprotected server.
Nice try, but that's not the problem this time.
From the original message:
http://risorse.dei.polimi.it/digital/products/2010/High frequency,high time
resolution time-to-digital converter employing passive resonating
circuits.pdf
<http://risorse.dei.polimi.it/digital/products/2010/High%20frequency,high%20t
ime%20resolution%20time-to-digital%20converter%20employing%20passive%20resona
ting%20circuits.pdf>
The URL overflows a line and contains spaces. The second copy inside <> has
%20 where the spaces go. You are supposed to remove the line breaks and put
it back together.
The problem is that there is a missing space between "High frequency," and
"high time".
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Mea Culpa.
Below is a link to the paper using SAW filters to achieve a sub ps time
interval interpolator noise:
http://cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov/lw16/docs/papers/las_4_Prochazka_p.pdf
And the associated presentation:
http://cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov/lw16/docs/presentations/las_4_Prochazka.pdf
Bruce
Stanley Reynolds wrote:
oh well no credit for me, but what happened to the missing space when so many
other spaces made it thru as %20 ?
----- Original Message ----
From: Hal Murrayhmurray@megapathdsl.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 8:27:09 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: leaching was, Alternative time interval
interpolation technique
When they receive the request for the pdf they check to see what page
referred the request if it wasn't their site then they assume some other
web site leaching bandwidth. This other site pretends to serve the file but
in fact it is still served by them. This pretend site doesn't pay for the
bandwidth to serve the files, win for them lose for the unprotected server.
Nice try, but that's not the problem this time.
From the original message:
http://risorse.dei.polimi.it/digital/products/2010/High frequency,high time
resolution time-to-digital converter employing passive resonating
circuits.pdf
<http://risorse.dei.polimi.it/digital/products/2010/High%20frequency,high%20t
ime%20resolution%20time-to-digital%20converter%20employing%20passive%20resona
ting%20circuits.pdf>
The URL overflows a line and contains spaces. The second copy inside<> has
%20 where the spaces go. You are supposed to remove the line breaks and put
it back together.
The problem is that there is a missing space between "High frequency," and
"high time".
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 14:59:43 +1200
Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Mea Culpa.
Below is a link to the paper using SAW filters to achieve a sub ps time
interval interpolator noise:
http://cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov/lw16/docs/papers/las_4_Prochazka_p.pdf
And the associated presentation:
http://cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov/lw16/docs/presentations/las_4_Prochazka.pdf
A quick skimming over the error analysis Panek made, suggests that
the jitter of the clock source is the biggest contributor to measurement
errors. But he never says how a clock source with such a low jitter is
build. Although he references a few times a module build by Josef Kölbl
of the Fachhochschule Deggendorf, there is no description available what
kind of device that is.
Does anyone have any pointers to recommended reading on the design of such
low jitter oscillators?
Attila Kinali
--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
Attila Kinali wrote:
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 14:59:43 +1200
Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Mea Culpa.
Below is a link to the paper using SAW filters to achieve a sub ps time
interval interpolator noise:
http://cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov/lw16/docs/papers/las_4_Prochazka_p.pdf
And the associated presentation:
http://cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov/lw16/docs/presentations/las_4_Prochazka.pdf
A quick skimming over the error analysis Panek made, suggests that
the jitter of the clock source is the biggest contributor to measurement
errors. But he never says how a clock source with such a low jitter is
build. Although he references a few times a module build by Josef Kölbl
of the Fachhochschule Deggendorf, there is no description available what
kind of device that is.
Does anyone have any pointers to recommended reading on the design of such
low jitter oscillators?
Attila Kinali
Such low jitter oscillators are readily available.
With some care (bandpass filtering) a cycle to cycle jitter of around
50fs or so is attainable with a Wenzel OCXO for example.
However the time interval jitter degrades as the time interval increases.
Achieving a cycle to cycle jitter of 1ps or so is relatively easy with a
10MHz or 100MHz OCXO having sufficiently low phase noise.
Bruce
Attila wrote:
Does anyone have any pointers to recommended reading on the design of such
low jitter oscillators?
As Bruce noted, low jitter oscillators are available from any number
of sources. If you want to try rolling your own, here are a few
sources to start you off:
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/ETD/image/etd369.pdf
http://link.aip.org/link/?ELLEAK/34/2024/1
http://www.national.com/vcm/NSC_Content/Files/en_US/Timing/LMK04000_ProdBrief.pdf
http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-1939.pdf
http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-1910.pdf
I'm sure others will have many more suggestions.
Best regards,
Charles
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 16:37:59 -0400
"Charles P. Steinmetz" charles_steinmetz@lavabit.com wrote:
Attila wrote:
Does anyone have any pointers to recommended reading on the design of such
low jitter oscillators?
As Bruce noted, low jitter oscillators are available from any number
of sources. If you want to try rolling your own, here are a few
sources to start you off:
That's exactly the way i'm going. Using ready made parts is easy
(if a bit expensive at times), but if you don't understand how
these work will lead to very stupid design decisions.
Thanks for the links, i'll have a look at them.
Attila Kinali
--
If you want to walk fast, walk alone.
If you want to walk far, walk together.
-- African proverb
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:58:01 +1200
Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Such low jitter oscillators are readily available.
With some care (bandpass filtering) a cycle to cycle jitter of around
50fs or so is attainable with a Wenzel OCXO for example.
Apropos Wenzel: Is there any distributor that sells them in
single quantities? Or do i have to get them from Wenzel directly?
And is there any price list available?
However the time interval jitter degrades as the time interval increases.
Achieving a cycle to cycle jitter of 1ps or so is relatively easy with a
10MHz or 100MHz OCXO having sufficiently low phase noise.
Why an OXCO? AFAIK the temperature has only an effect on long term
stability/drift, but doesn't affect short term effects (which cause
the jitters). Or am i missing something?
Attila Kinali
--
If you want to walk fast, walk alone.
If you want to walk far, walk together.
-- African proverb
Hi
Single cycle jitter is a bit confusing when you talk about bandwidths of 5Hz
to 20 MHz off a carrier. Since phase noise at 5 Hz does contribute to jitter
over that bandwidth, an OCXO (with good phase noise close in) would be
needed.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Attila Kinali
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 11:53 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: leaching was, Alternative time interval
interpolation technique
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:58:01 +1200
Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Such low jitter oscillators are readily available.
With some care (bandpass filtering) a cycle to cycle jitter of around
50fs or so is attainable with a Wenzel OCXO for example.
Apropos Wenzel: Is there any distributor that sells them in
single quantities? Or do i have to get them from Wenzel directly?
And is there any price list available?
However the time interval jitter degrades as the time interval increases.
Achieving a cycle to cycle jitter of 1ps or so is relatively easy with a
10MHz or 100MHz OCXO having sufficiently low phase noise.
Why an OXCO? AFAIK the temperature has only an effect on long term
stability/drift, but doesn't affect short term effects (which cause
the jitters). Or am i missing something?
Attila Kinali
--
If you want to walk fast, walk alone.
If you want to walk far, walk together.
-- African proverb
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi Atila,
It's very hard to find a vendor making good (sc-cut) low PN crystals that are not in an ocxo. They are mostly designed to work at inflection points around 90C.
No good very low PN vcxos around unfortunately..
Bye Said
Sent From iPhone
On Aug 16, 2010, at 8:52, Attila Kinali attila@kinali.ch wrote:
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:58:01 +1200
Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Such low jitter oscillators are readily available.
With some care (bandpass filtering) a cycle to cycle jitter of around
50fs or so is attainable with a Wenzel OCXO for example.
Apropos Wenzel: Is there any distributor that sells them in
single quantities? Or do i have to get them from Wenzel directly?
And is there any price list available?
However the time interval jitter degrades as the time interval increases.
Achieving a cycle to cycle jitter of 1ps or so is relatively easy with a
10MHz or 100MHz OCXO having sufficiently low phase noise.
Why an OXCO? AFAIK the temperature has only an effect on long term
stability/drift, but doesn't affect short term effects (which cause
the jitters). Or am i missing something?
Attila Kinali
--
If you want to walk fast, walk alone.
If you want to walk far, walk together.
-- African proverb
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
The TDEV plot for the OCXO in question which can be derived from its
ADEV plot is perhaps a useful guide to the expected jitter when
measuring a particular time interval.
For long time intervals the phase noise much closer to the carrier than
5Hz will tend to dominate.
Bruce
Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Single cycle jitter is a bit confusing when you talk about bandwidths of 5Hz
to 20 MHz off a carrier. Since phase noise at 5 Hz does contribute to jitter
over that bandwidth, an OCXO (with good phase noise close in) would be
needed.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Attila Kinali
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 11:53 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT: leaching was, Alternative time interval
interpolation technique
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:58:01 +1200
Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Such low jitter oscillators are readily available.
With some care (bandpass filtering) a cycle to cycle jitter of around
50fs or so is attainable with a Wenzel OCXO for example.
Apropos Wenzel: Is there any distributor that sells them in
single quantities? Or do i have to get them from Wenzel directly?
And is there any price list available?
However the time interval jitter degrades as the time interval increases.
Achieving a cycle to cycle jitter of 1ps or so is relatively easy with a
10MHz or 100MHz OCXO having sufficiently low phase noise.
Why an OXCO? AFAIK the temperature has only an effect on long term
stability/drift, but doesn't affect short term effects (which cause
the jitters). Or am i missing something?
Attila Kinali
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:53
Attila Kinali [attila@kinali.ch] wrote:
Apropos Wenzel: Is there any distributor that sells them in single
quantities? Or do i have to get them from Wenzel directly?
And is there any price list available?
You can buy ultra low phase noise OCXO (and smaller versions than Wenzel's)
in single quantities from
AXTAL www.axtal.com. We are selling directly to radio amateurs and time-nuts
from Germany to any destination country.
Professionals please go through our local reps.
For some OCXO listed on the website, phase not is not displayed on the data
sheet, but can be provided on request
Sorry for that commercial...
Why an OXCO? AFAIK the temperature has only an effect on long term
stability/drift, but doesn't affect short term effects (which cause the
jitters). > Or am i missing something?
Temperature has an important impact on short term stability in the range of
seconds and up, that's correct. However OCXO are usually using higher-Q
crystals (overtones, often SC-cuts), while VCXO, TCXO and clocks are mostly
using fundamental mode or "low" overtone crystals.
Bernd Neubig, DK1AG
On Aug 16, 2010, at 18:35 Said Jackson [saidjack@aol.com] wrote:
It's very hard to find a vendor making good (sc-cut) low PN crystals that
are not in an ocxo. They are mostly designed to work at inflection points
around 90C.
No good very low PN vcxos around unfortunately..
It is the nature (or definition) of the SC-cut that this cut yields an
inflection point at around 95°C. This makes it not usable for VCXO or clocks
without temperature control, becasue the frequency vs. temperature various
rather strongly in a normal -20C to +70C environment.
There are compromizes like the IT and the FC cut, whose inflection points
are at 75C or 50C respectively. But still the frequency excursion in
"normal" operating temperature ranges is rather large.
PN of VCXO is larger than that of OCXO because
- mostly fundamental mode or low overtone crystls are used, which have lower
Q that tose crystals used in OCXO - the phase noise is increased due to parametric effects of teh varactor
diode
Nevertheless there are VCXO on the market which provide much lower phase
noise than teh mass-produced standard models.
See for example the AXIS10LN on the AXTAL website www.axtal.com. There may
be other vendors too ;-)
Regards
Bernd Neubig DK1AG
Hi,
Does anybody have an older version of NI LabView SW they'd like to sell?
If so, please contact me off list.
Thanks,
-John
==============
I have an 1999 version
Best wishes Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Forster" jfor@quik.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com; EIP_microwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 6:36 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] WTB: Older Version of LabView
Hi,
Does anybody have an older version of NI LabView SW they'd like to sell?
If so, please contact me off list.
Thanks,
-John
==============
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I was able to pick up a year 2000 or so one from Bert. This worked for the
things that I was trying to do and the types of gear I have. HP etc.
May he have more. ve2zaz@yahoo.ca
Missed you at the MIT
Reagrds
Paul
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 1:36 AM, J. Forster jfor@quik.com wrote:
Hi,
Does anybody have an older version of NI LabView SW they'd like to sell?
If so, please contact me off list.
Thanks,
-John
==============
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I, too, would be interested in getting an older version of Labview. I have
1980's HP equipment that I would love to be able to communicate with
efficiently using my NI GPIB cards.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:05 AM
To: jfor@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WTB: Older Version of LabView
I was able to pick up a year 2000 or so one from Bert. This worked for the
things that I was trying to do and the types of gear I have. HP etc. May he
have more. ve2zaz@yahoo.ca
Missed you at the MIT
Reagrds
Paul
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 1:36 AM, J. Forster jfor@quik.com wrote:
Hi,
Does anybody have an older version of NI LabView SW they'd like to
sell? If so, please contact me off list.
Thanks,
-John
==============
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Student versions of LabView are "in bounds" for personal use.
Using the results for publication might get NI's attention, but
otherwise they have no problem with individual use. I have
registered my copy of LabView 8.5 Student Edition & gotten
direct technical help from them with very good results.
Student versions have been on *bay for less than $90.
Pete Rawson
I recently bought a gen-u-ine NI PCMCIA GPIB card and cable (two separate
lots) on eBay for about $120 and basically want to play some using an
older ThinkPad as a platform. Nothing fancy. Really just a toy.
Best,
-John
=============
I, too, would be interested in getting an older version of Labview. I
have
1980's HP equipment that I would love to be able to communicate with
efficiently using my NI GPIB cards.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:05 AM
To: jfor@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WTB: Older Version of LabView
I was able to pick up a year 2000 or so one from Bert. This worked for the
things that I was trying to do and the types of gear I have. HP etc. May
he
have more. ve2zaz@yahoo.ca
Missed you at the MIT
Reagrds
Paul
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 1:36 AM, J. Forster jfor@quik.com wrote:
Hi,
Does anybody have an older version of NI LabView SW they'd like to
sell? If so, please contact me off list.
Thanks,
-John
==============
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Do the Student Versions allow full access and use of the NI Driver library?
I want to control some definitely non-student hardware.
Best,
-John
================
Student versions of LabView are "in bounds" for personal use.
Using the results for publication might get NI's attention, but
otherwise they have no problem with individual use. I have
registered my copy of LabView 8.5 Student Edition & gotten
direct technical help from them with very good results.
Student versions have been on *bay for less than $90.
Pete Rawson
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.