Well, if you want to build, how about:

http://www.scottyspectrumanalyzer.com/

a little 3GHz spectrum analyzer....

I'm still building mine :-)

Get a Triimble Thunderbolt for a 10Mhz GPS locked frequency standard.
Feed that into the external frequency standard input of your HP5345A.

Scott

On Jan 21, 2010, at 10:35 AM, John Foege wrote:

Hello John and the Net:

Welcome to the list.

You have to define what you really want to do, before you spec out the
test equipment to do it.

Is your focus time and frequency accuracy and stability or more RF
design wise ?

Find a job that has all the access to modern test equipment you could
dream of.
If you have it at work and they tolerate home projects, you are a giant
step ahead.
A key to the stock room also helps.....

If you really have to have your own, I find Ebay to be a valuable
(anytime) source.
Ham radio fleamarkets are another source. Timonium, NEARFEST, MIT,
Dayton.....

Ebay is like the big fleamarket in the ether, you do not know what you
bought until you put it on your test bench and evaluate its' performance..

Most test equipment vendors are simply junk/salvage dealers.
They buy by the pallet load and hope for a bonanza on Ebay.
Always consider a second unit as a parts unit.

There is nothing wrong with gear a generation or two old as long as you
can live with the original specs.
The older HP gear I have picked up is exceptionally reliable and still
performing.

Where are you located and what is your engineering job ?

Stan, W1LE    Cape Cod    FN41sr

John Foege wrote:

I'd get a couple of good, variable power supplies. An SA (maybe w/
tracking generator) long before a VNA.

An RF and a Function generator would also be useful.

I'd also stick w/ your 2465. It's much less likely to lie to you.

FWIW,
-John

=================

What frequency ranges?
If you are interested in <60MHz, then something like the TenTec TAPR VNA
($600) connects to a PC or a mac.  Works as a signal generator and as a 2
port VNA.

On

One thing to look at is the Tek TM500 stuff. When I lived in a small
appartment, it was very helpful. There are a wide variety of modules
available, often in the $20 to $30 range. They are also mostly pretty easy
to fix and use mostly standard OTS parts.

The TM500 stuff is NOT a substitute for high end instruments, but is well
above hobby grade. BTW, the RF generators are not very good on frequency
stability. You can get 6 lab grade instruments in a box about 9" wide x
14" high x 18" deep.

FWIW,
-John

================

I agree, the TM-500 series has a lot of good plug-ins like DMMs, power
supplies, function generators, pulse generators and frequency counters, that
are quite useful and as good as economy stand-alone equipment, often for
much less.

One relatively deceptive instrument in the TM-500 series is the SG-503 (and
its big brother SG-504). On paper, it sounds very useful, with 250MHz max
frequency and very stable output level with a frequency counter built-in in
a single TM-500 drawer. But its frequency stability is insufficient to check
receivers, the frequency control (and counter) is too coarse, and the
attenuator has very limited range (high level only). It is perfect for what
it was designed for, which is checking the bandwidth of oscilloscopes, but
is not really useful for much else, particularly not for checking receivers.
I have one in perfect condition, and I never use it.

If you do RF work on a budget, don't buy an SG-503. They are still
relatively expensive, and not very useful. Keep your money for a true Signal
Generator, like an HP 8640 (manual tuning) or an HP 8657A (synthesized), or
a Communication Test Set.

This was my $0.02 for today...

Didier

I agree. The RF generators are not really useful for radio work.

-John

==============

Lux, Jim (337C) wrote:

Or this one:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VNWA/
(DG8SAQ)

Excellent to 500 MHz, quite usable to 1300 MHz.
Does 6 or 12 term error correction, most of this VNA is software.
I'm just using one to tune a 100 MHz oscillator with opened loop.  :-)

The only drawback is that one cannot measure compression
because the absolute levels vary over f.

But then it can embed / de-embed, virtual match, display the Q
and equivalent circuit of a crystal from S11 measurement,
L, C, time gating and and and.

regards, Gerhard  DK4XP

John Foege wrote:

John, I hope my first post on this Forum will be useful to you... I was
in your same position two or three years ago.

I have to say that ebay is really handy, but I suggest you first to try
with swapfests and flea-markets. There you can speak with the seller,
and ask for a demonstration if there's a AC plug close by.
My only suggestion is: buy what you need now, and save money for the future.

Oscilloscopes
If I'm not wrong, Tektronix is selling its entry-level models at around
1000$. I have a TDS 210: small, portable, fits 100% the requirements for
a general purpose scope. However, I use most my old Tek 475A (analog,

Spectrum Analyzer
I have started with a HP 141T system, a real workhorse (and reparable).
The 141 is actually the mainframe, then you need the 855x series
plug-in. One (8552) is the IF, the other the RF plug-in.
With the 8555 you can go up to 18 GHz. In this case, I'll consider the
8445 preselector.
They are still worth 500$--1500$ depending on the plug-in and accessories.
Now I have a HP 8566A (100 Hz-22GHz) which I payed a little more of a
complete HP 141 system. My father has a HP 8568B (100Hz-1.8 Ghz), that
one is less expensive.

Signal generator
I'll consider building a DDS generator kit for frequency <150 MHz.
Analog generators/sweepers are relatively cheap, but they are not stable
in frequency.
If your target is high frequency, the HP 8620C sweeper series is a good
compromise. Get a "C" mainframe, get the 86222 and 86290 plug-ins and
you can sweep from 10 MHz to 18 GHz. 8620C+86222 run at about
300$--400$; the 86290 can go up to 500$ (watch ebay for deals).
If you buy an EIP source-locking counter, you can phase-lock them.
Lower prices for the heavy, old BWO-based HP 8690 sweepers. I can't
recommend them, unless you find a good deal, with the complete plug-in
series.
If you need a synthesizer, HP models are generally more expensive (but
also more fixable, in general) than Marconi, Giga-tronics and Fluke.
I have a Marconi 2019 (80 kHz-1040 MHz) and it works fine and it's clean
enough for my needs.
If you buy one, make sure it's 100% working, they are tricky to fix.

Network analyzers
Wonderful instruments. Very sophisticated. People still write entire PhD
theses on their calibration theory.
Please don't take it badly, but if you don't really know how to use
them, you don't need them, since a spectrum analyzer and a tracking
generator will solve your problems and save you a lot of money.

However, if you want to acquire some pieces of history, look for the HP
8410 from 1970's, it uses the 8620 as sweeper: the HP8412 display + 8410
IF should go for 200$, S-parameters test-set 8745 (0.1-2 GHz) or 8746
(0.5-12/18 GHz) for 300$; the 8511 sampler converter is about 100$: get
at least two.
If you have money and you need it, the HP 8510C is the best VNA ever
made. But the 8510 is just the display (85101) and the IF (85102), you
need a sweeper (8340 or 8341 or newer models) and the test-set (8515,
8514 etc) AND the interconnecting cables.
Once you have all that, you have a Ferrari without tires.
You need at least two test cables, calibration grade adapters and
calibration standards... new tires will cost much more than the
second-hand Ferrari.
Both instruments are reparable, if you don't blow up the unobtanium RF
parts (samplers and pulse generators for the test-sets, wideband
amplifiers and YIG oscillators for the source).
(By the way, new VNA models from Agilent, Anrits, R&S all have an
embedded PC with MS Windows and a hard drive.
This simply means they are not designed to last 20+ years, but perhaps
it's not fair to compare them with my HP 8510B...)

Oh, yes... one thing more: a PC with a National Instruments GPIB board
if you plan to automate your measurements.

Good luck
Marco Garelli, AI4YH

Outstanding.. that one is very competitive in price (using a ballpark $2/GBP conversion) to the TAPR one.

I'm glad that more of these are becoming available (as assembled units, not as kits..)

I mostly agree, but for a VNA, consider the HP 8505A. It only goes to
about 1.8 GHz, but is leaa of a dinosaur than the 8410 system.

-John

=============

You could also get really hardcore and build the VNA described in DUBUS
4/2009 by HB9TXV.  Very nice piece of work, usable to 30 GHz.

-- john, KE5FX

https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

John Miles wrote:

Yes, but there's a hole for the first 5 GHz...We were already dicussing
how to fix this...

This VNA should run with DG8SAQ software with minimum modifications :-)

73, Gerhard

Oops.

-John

============

But only starts at 5GHz :-(  :-(

Luis Cupido
ct1dmk

John Miles wrote:

I have 3 5345s with the good ovens and indeed they are very stable.
Use the gps just to check things.
Keep it simple.
Its unfortunate but there used to be flea markets with truckloads of test
equipment.
Very inexpensive power supplies and everything else. But much of that has
gone to ebay.
You still find a bargain now and again. But nothing like 5 years ago.
You are doing well. Another thing I have noticed is even the cheap digital
voltmeters are really very good these days. Technology moves on. Sometimes
for the good and the bad.
Good luck

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Bob Camp lists@cq.nu wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul swed" paulswedb@gmail.com

The dollar buys less than it did a mere 5 years ago; the flea market is a
real market and there is a lot of stuff IMHO sitting on shelves unsold. ebay
also has a lot of stuff in "stores" with absurd prices on it; it won't sell
either. Eventually the prices will drop, I hope...

Don

Hi

About 8 years ago a whole lot of companies dumped a whole lot of test gear. Prices dropped rapidly as they did so. It's taken us all quite a while to burn through that pile of stuff.

The amazing thing is that as bad as the economy is now, you don't see people doing the same sort of thing. You see oceans of people out of work, but not piles of test gear getting sold off.

Bob

On Jan 22, 2010, at 2:12 AM, Don Latham wrote:

All good comments.
Totally agree it depends on your interests on what will get used the most. I
have a very wide range of gear that I have picked up since becoming a test
equipment junky. Though the gear I have is not really junk, pretty far from
it. Multiple spectrum analyzers, network analyzers, generators and scopes,
on an on. One good thing is that often the gear just needs some tlc to get
back into to shape. It also helps to simply clean the stuff. A bit of soap
and water and scrubbing gets years of grunge off.
I have learned so much from repairing this equipment for my hobby. Each
piece is a lesson on how to do things right. If it an HP, Tektronix, or
Rhodes and Shwartz. Fluke has really gone down hill for my 2 cents. Pretty
junky. Sorry I purchased a fluke 87 new. Live and learn.
Anyhow stick to good names and you can't go to wrong.
As for ebay silly prices for really high risk equipment. I quit using ebay
about 4 years ago.
I actually had purchased numbers of things from the auctions. But ebay
seemed to want to know far to much info on me. As they say time to shut her
down.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:23 AM, Bob Camp lists@cq.nu wrote:

Bob Camp wrote:

Well, when the .com bubble bursted, it had been preceeded by massive
acceleration of an instrument-hungry industry. As the bubble bursted,
both .com companies and otherwise stable companies accelerated by their
customers suffered. Some folded in and some just barely survived.

This time it was the economy folks that fluked it. Instrument hungry
industry only suffers indirectly.

Cheers,
Magnus

Thanks to everyone who answered in this thread.I am keenly interested
in everything everyone had to say!

One of the things that seems like a no-brainer, would be to scrape
together the $700 and get an Agilent E8285A CDMA test set. It seems
like I can't go wrong with that! My only concern with getting these
off eBay or from anywhere else for that matter, is that apparently the
later versions firmware only support 800Mhz and up operation instead
of the earlier versions 100kHz-1Ghz.

Unfortunately, Amtronix seems to have run out, or at least are on
their last 1-2 units. I wont have the cash in time to get one, as they
have sold 35 in the last month alone.

Sigh.

Another very cool set of toys that had been mentioned, were the Tek
TM500 series, which I am also interested in! I don't need any of the
freq. counter plugins, but the power supply, func. generators, etc.
All very cool!

Thanks,

John

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Magnus Danielson
magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

I really think the Tek TM500 is a great way to set up a compact,
professional grade lab. If you get a TM515 mainframe, you can even travel
with it.

I think I'd consider carefully about getting a separate scope (465A,...)
rather than a SC50x though.

-John

================

John,

as for the function generator, I stick with my old Wavetek 186. I have a
HP 33120A, but I'm using it only for special applications like precise
swept frequency tests. Each time it takes me an hour of reading the
manual to get through the cryptic user interface... Now the ol' Wavetek
has a few knobs that you just dial in and... voilà! Obviously, there are
other good function generators on the market that cost less. Just look
for the right features like an output attenuator with 20 dB steps down
to -60 (or at least Hi and Lo outputs) etc.

Any RF / microwave test equipment depends on the frequency range you
want to cover and on your budget. I've had a Tek 7L13 (1.8 GHz) spectrum
analyzer that served me well until I replaced it with a 7L14 (digital
storage) and, later on a HP 70100A (2.9 GHz), and a while ago with a R&S
FSEA30 (3.5 GHz). There is a huge difference between the FSEA30 and the
7L13, but also in the price tag...

Adrian

John Foege schrieb:

If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding
tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets.  The idea,
besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble.
This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity.  It
completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise
pretty much mandatory when using folding tables.

With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into
your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it.  Every few years, or
when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on
another one.  Voila, a brand new workbench.

Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay.  These are
nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data
centers.  They are stout.  They're very expensive when new, but almost
free for the shipping when bought used.  I used generic shelving units to
hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't
go back.

An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to
1800 pounds.  I have three in my living room and wish I had more...

-- john, KE5FX

... er, make that 41 EIA units (1.75" each).  I'd totally use 12' racks if I
had the ceiling height, though...

-- john, KE5FX

I also had similar problems with my 8 ft tables for my test equipment. I
found at Home Depot replacement fold down legs. I bought some, and installed
them right in the middle of the tables. No more sagging problems. I had to
shorten the legs somewhat as they were a few inches too long. But, have
supported hundreds of ponds for many years now with no sigh of
warping/sagging. 73 - Mike

Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of John Miles
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment

If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding
tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets.  The idea,
besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble.
This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity.  It
completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise
pretty much mandatory when using folding tables.

With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into
your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it.  Every few years, or
when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on
another one.  Voila, a brand new workbench.

Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay.  These are
nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data
centers.  They are stout.  They're very expensive when new, but almost
free for the shipping when bought used.  I used generic shelving units to
hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't
go back.

An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to
1800 pounds.  I have three in my living room and wish I had more...

-- john, KE5FX

I did this too; used 2x4 for legs and frames, 2 glued layers of particle
board for top, 4'x8'. Use lots of construction adhesive. For top shelving, I
got the put-together 18 in. deep storage shelving.
Somehow I always wind up working on the last 2-5 inches of the table anyway
:-)
I bought rolling plastic drawer assemblies at Staples that just fit under
the top battens for storage.
Remember Latham's law of horizontal surfaces (ahem)--any horizontal surface
immediately becomes covered up with crud!
Store parts in oversized tackle-type partitioned boxes, they stack, and you
can bring the needed one to the top. Tons of little drawers suck, IMHO.
$0.02
Don

paul swed wrote:

I have found that Bug and Tar Remover, sold to clean cars, works well on
front panels. It seems to be strong enough to soften label gunk, but not
strong enough to mar front-panel paint.

Even worse are the tables with plastic tops...instasag! I've scavenged a few local leg sets from dumped tables on the curb for future projects. My lab has particle board tops covered with anti-stat matts, but they are sitting on 2 drawer filing cabinets and there is no sag. I have 4 racks currently in the house and garage; in one case, the rack out weights the contents by quite a bit. It will still be working after the roaches take over the world...

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Miles" jmiles@pop.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 5:37:55 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment

If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding
tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea,
besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble.
This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It
completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise
pretty much mandatory when using folding tables.

With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into
your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or
when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on
another one. Voila, a brand new workbench.

Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are
nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data
centers. They are stout. They're very expensive when new, but almost
free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to
hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't
go back.

An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to
1800 pounds. I have three in my living room and wish I had more...

-- john, KE5FX

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

HA! The B&T remover is one of my faves when nothing else works, and I don't want to use the realy nasty stuff like paint remover. I was given a can about 15 years ago and I'm just now running out.

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rex" rexa@sonic.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 12:04:46 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment

paul swed wrote:

I have found that Bug and Tar Remover, sold to clean cars, works well on
front panels. It seems to be strong enough to soften label gunk, but not
strong enough to mar front-panel paint.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hi

If you are looking for massive tables on the cheap, you can indeed build them. Have the local Home Depot rip some plywood to an appropriate width and glue four sheets one on top of the other. 2x4's or 4x4's make fine legs and support structure under the table top. I have 16 feet of it sitting in the basement. No test gear on it at all. Other hobbies seem to have taken over the entire space...

The only real drawback is that it's a build in place item. You aren't going to take it with you when you move. There are various versions of that table scattered all over the US.

Bob

On Jan 23, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Mike Feher wrote:

My work bench is two 2" thick, eight foot long planks, bolted to two
two-drawer filing cabinets, then covered with anti-static-mat.
The anti-static-mat is screwed into the wood.  So when it comes time
to move this you unscrew and unbolt and you are on your way.
As added bonuses you have four filing cabinet drawers to keep manuals
and schematics in.

You can see it here: http://www.designer-iii.com/Solder/

Two drawer cabinets that you can buy today are a bit shorter so they
need some cement blocks hidden under them,
or double up on the planks.

I've not seen anyone address the anti-static issues in setting up a workbench...

The Preface to Murphy's Law:
We, the willing,
Lead by the unknowing.
Are doing the impossible for the ungrateful...
We have done so much for so long...
With so little...
We are now qualified to do anything...
With nothing...
Forever!

--
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
http://www.softwaresafety.net/
http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.unusualresearch.com/

Even cheaper and less work than plywood - solid wood doors from Home
Depot, laid across a rectangle using 2x4 as horizontals with 4x4 as
legs.

It you use lag bolts (and you should, as nails work loose over time),
you can take the things apart when you move.

My buddy has a few that all his milling machine parts sit on, and
they haven't sagged.

Ask if they have any scratch and dent doors for really cheap.

Tom Frank, KA2CDK

On Jan 24, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

One thing to be very careful of using doors - the core may not be what you expect it to be. Solid wood may be just that, solid wood pieces laminated together. Think of it as a pice of butcher block countertop. It can also be shredded wood glued together. Think of it as  a thick piece of particle board. The first sort of construction is quite strong. The second not so much so ....

Bob

On Jan 24, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Thomas A. Frank wrote: