What's the aging like for watch crystals?

What type of cut to watch crystals use?  Are there any generalizations about
aging?

I don't remember any tales of watches changing from good to bad after a
couple of years.  Surely there are enough geeks who keep an eye on the
performance of their watches that somebody would have noticed.  Or maybe they
setup the initial calibration so it gets better as it ages for the first
year...

--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.

On Nov 30, 2007 1:04 PM, Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net wrote:

http://www.foxonline.com/pdfs/ncseries.pdf

Aging: +-3ppm/year

I believe the type of cut is just called "tuning fork", but I am not sure.

In my experience watches come from the factory adjusted to gain about 5
seconds a month.  The ones I have owned over the years seemed to be fairly
stable in that.  I have always wished there was a way for someone who is not
a watch maker to open up such a watch and turn the trimmer capacitor, there
has to be one, to set it right on.  Then it would be much easier to tell how
the crystal is aging.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O D S.

Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Hal Murray" hmurray@megapathdsl.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chronometer contest sponsored by IEEE Spectrum

Max Robinson wrote:

Not true, its no more difficult to measure the aging if the frequency is
slightly high or initially spot on.

Bruce

I found this article randomly this evening, it has some interesting
tidbits about quartz oscillators in watches.  I had never heard of the
venerable Sieko "twin quartz" from 1978, good to +/- 5 seconds a year:

http://people.timezone.com/msandler/Articles/CarlosFinalParadigm/FinalParadigm.html

jeff

Max Robinson wrote:

Hi Max,

I haven't seen a quartz watch with a trimmer capacitor
in something like 20 years.

What they do now days is use a microprocessor with flash ram, and
the timing machine reprograms the microprocessor's second counter
to trip at the right time.

-Chuck Harris (amateur watchmaker)

Max Robinson wrote:

Yes, they have a trimmer (at least all of mine do). Most backs can be opened by
either prying, screws, or threaded ring.
It's very helpful to have good lighting and some magnifiers.  If you've done any
surface mount work, this would be a piece of cake.

Daun

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf
Of Max Robinson
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:09 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chronometer contest sponsored by IEEE Spectrum

In my experience watches come from the factory adjusted to gain about 5
seconds a month.  The ones I have owned over the years seemed to be fairly
stable in that.  I have always wished there was a way for someone who is not
a watch maker to open up such a watch and turn the trimmer capacitor, there
has to be one, to set it right on.  Then it would be much easier to tell how
the crystal is aging.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O D S.

Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hal Murray" hmurray@megapathdsl.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chronometer contest sponsored by IEEE Spectrum

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.

I believe watchmakers have a device they use to measure the vibration from
the stepper motor or the escape mechanism and indicate if the watch gains or
looses time. I am not sure how accurate that system is, and if something
equivalent is in use on crystal watches.

Chuck, can you tell us?

My son's Bulova was at the repair shop for something like 3 months
(August-November, I got it back last week) for what I initially thought was
a dead battery (the watch was erratic). The watchmaker said a capacitor had
to be replaced (did not ask which, I assumed it was the trimmer capacitor).
He further said the factory sent the wrong capacitor 3 times, after which he
decided to replace the entire movement instead, hence the 3 months and $60
repair (after discount).

I am not sure if my son's watch is crystal controlled or some other system,
I know some Bulovas used to use a mechanical tuning fork resonator
(Accutron?) His watch is only 2 or 3 years old.

Didier

Twiddling the trimmer on those watches that do have one (really old watches)
is not the right way to do the job.  You will waste an incredible amount of time
moving the trimmer, and waiting only to find that you overshot your mark.  Here
is the correct way to do it:

Before you test, set the watch accurately to your favorite time source, and
wear the watch  normally for one week.  At the end of the week, check the time,
and make note of the offset.  Calculate from the offset in time, the number of
parts per million the watch is in error.

Put the watch in the center of a coil of wire that has a few hundred to a few
thousand turns.  Connect the coil to a reciprocal frequency counter, and count
the crystal's frequency (It is a good idea to add some parallel capacitance
equal to the amount necessary to make your coil resonate at 32KHz.).

Take that measured frequency, and add or subtract the "personal offset" of the
watch, and then using the trimmer adjust so the counter shows the slightly offset
frequency.  Put the watch back together, and wear it for another week.

The thing is watches rates are dependent on how you personally wear them.
Some people's wrists are warmer than others, some people take the watch
off at certain times of day, others don't...  If you wear the watch normally,
and measure your personal offset, you can adjust the crystal to compensate
for that change.  The watch won't be any more accurate at any given instant,
but it will stay spot-on over the course of a week.

-Chuck Harris (amateur watchmaker)

Note:  If you don't have a reciprocal counter, such as a 5370B, you can also use
a good fractional /N synthesizer, such as the 3666[a,b,c] and an oscilloscope.
Put the 3666 on the horizontal axis, and the coil on the vertical axis.  Adjust
the synthesizer until you get a good stable circle.  Add/subtract your personal
offset from the synthesizer's frequency and reset it to the offset frequency.
Then adjust the watch's trimmer for a good stable circle.

Daun Yeagley wrote:

Hi Didier,

In the days of mechanical watches, every watchmaker had a watch timing machine,
such as a Vibrograf, Griener, L&R, .... .

What the watch timing machine did, was take an accurate crystal oscillator, and
divide it down to the various ticking rates of the mechanical watches of the
day.  The most popular rate was 18,000 beats per hour.  The reference in the
timing machine drove a synchronous motor that spun a drum, and the watch's
noises were amplified to a level that could move a tapper, and the tapper
hit a spiral wire on the rotating drum, and left a mark on a slowly advancing
piece of paper.  This left a record of the watch's rate as compared to the
crystal's rate.

Then the Bulova Accutron came on to the scene, and the watch timing machines
added an inductive loop that could sense the coils that drove the tuning fork,
and a pulse generator that divided the signal heard by the inductive loop into
pulses that the timing machine could record (18000BPH).

Everything else remained essentially the same.

The quartz watch changed the picture slightly.  The only audible sounds
were a very faint 32KHz mechanical vibration, and a 1pps tick of the stepper
motor.

There was however, a rather peppy 32KHz E-M signal.  So, most of the machines
either listened to the mechanical tick, or sniffed for the RF signal of the
quartz oscillator, or both.

The easiest way to go for someone with a time-nuts sort of laboratory is to
use a coil of wire that is resonated at 32KHz, an oscilloscope, and a nice
fractional divide by N synthesizer (ala HP3336A,B,C or HP3586A,B,C, ...)

The synthesizer can either be used to trigger the timebase, or as the horizontal
input, depending on whether you prefer Lissajous patterns or sliding waveforms
for making your adjustments.

You can also use a good reciprocal counter; though, some signal processing will
probably be required for that route.

In any case, the technique used is to set the watch to your reference clock.
Wear it for 1 week, and then note the exact time difference from your reference
clock.  Calculate the number of PPM offset.  Next measure the watch's 32KHz
oscillator using the loop of wire.  If you use a Lissajous, or sliding waveform
to make this measurement, your synthesizer will end up set to the watch's
frequency.  Add or subtract the offset, and reset the synthesizer.  Then
adjust the watch to exactly the new frequency.

Doing the adjustment this way will result in the watch being slightly wrong
on your bench, but the environmental variations that happen as you wear your
watch will be compensated out so that your weekly rate will be nearly perfect.
If it isn't, try again.

Didier Juges wrote:

Real tuning form Accutrons are collectibles now, and it is not unheard of for
an unscrupulous watchmaker to steal the movement out of one, and replace it with
a cheap quartz movement, all in the name of doing the watch's owner a favor.

The economics are thus:  The Accutron movement can bring several hundred dollars
worth of parts, with the tuning fork coils being the most valuable, and the
quartz replacement costs between $2 and $20 depending on how generous the
watchmaker was feeling.  If this happened, your Accutron will now go tic...tic...tic
instead of hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...  And it will have been transformed from
a significant antique relic to a worthless piece of junk.

-Chuck Harris

"Didier Juges" didier@cox.net wrote:

The original Accutron was indeed a mechanical tuning fork (hold it
up to your ear and hear a high-pitched hum) and while they still use
that trademark, they are now "just" quartz crystals.

I'm guessing the mechanical tuning fork model went away in the 70's for
most purposes. Some lab instruments used Accutron mechanisms for
timekeeping.

The mechanical tuning fork ones are quite collectible, and there's
no way in hell you'd ever get one repaired for $600!

Tim.

machine,

Of course the legacy watch timing machines have spawned modern electronic
solutions. The best one I know of  is offered by Graham Baxter of the UK.
http://www.delphelectronics.co.uk/products.html

Graham also has a discussion of watch timing accuracy using this system:
http://www.delphelectronics.co.uk/stability.htm

Bill, K8CU

Bill,

See also Brian's:
http://www.bmumford.com/mset/model3.html

and some clock measurement examples:
http://www.bmumford.com/mset/examples.html

/tvb

Hi Tim

Actually, the Accutrons aren't that expensive to repair.  Typical costs are
around $100, to maybe $200 if it is in bad shape.
I still have the Accutron Spaceview (the one where you can see the movement)
that my wife bought me on our first Christmas in 1967. I had it put back in
"like new" shape a year or so ago, and it cost $100.  I've also bought a couple
of "junkers" on Ebay for less than $50, and got them going myself.  They are
actually quite simple, with few moving parts.
Indeed, the name "Accutron" has really been cheapened IMHO by Bulova's marketing
of rather cheap quartz watches that they brand as Accutron.  The true Accutrons
(with the tuning forks) ceased manufacture around 1977.  The sad thing is that
they destroyed all the tooling used to make them.

Daun

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf
Of Tim Shoppa
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:48 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Watches

"Didier Juges" didier@cox.net wrote:

The original Accutron was indeed a mechanical tuning fork (hold it
up to your ear and hear a high-pitched hum) and while they still use
that trademark, they are now "just" quartz crystals.

I'm guessing the mechanical tuning fork model went away in the 70's for
most purposes. Some lab instruments used Accutron mechanisms for
timekeeping.

The mechanical tuning fork ones are quite collectible, and there's
no way in hell you'd ever get one repaired for $600!

Tim.

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and follow the instructions there.

That's not good news.  I guess I'll have to get one of those atomic watches.
I think they receive their time reference from the GPS rather than WWVB.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O D S.

Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Harris" cfharris@erols.com
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chronometer contest sponsored by IEEE Spectrum

I once saw one of the original machines used for adjusting balance wheel
watches.  It used an audio frequency tuning fork oscillator and a series of
count downs to drive a drum at the rate the watch ticked.  The watch was
placed on top of a microphone that picked up its ticks and caused a pen to
ink a paper chart on the drum.  The pen moved along the axis of the drum at
a constant rate.  The slope of the line showed how many seconds a watch
would gain or loose in 24 hours.  I wonder if you could use an induction
coil to pick up the 32678 Hz from the quartz oscillator and trim it up.
Only in an older watch, I guess.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O D S.

Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Didier Juges" didier@cox.net
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:17 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Watches

Yes, it could, but it would probably be more work than it would be worth.
There are timing machines available that do just that.

I still use one of those old machines, a Vibrograf B100.  It is full of
miniature tubes, and still works great.

I use a coil of wire with a hundred or so turns, and a capacitor
to resonate.  I connect it to the input of a vertical amp plug in on my
scope, and trigger the scope with a HP3336B.

-Chuck Harris

Max Robinson wrote:

Not just unscrupulous watchmakers, that's what happens if you send
your watch back to Bulova for repair!

If you know enough to include a note saying do not replace, they
return it untouched, as they no longer service the tuning fork
movements (I imagine they would put in a battery and new o-rings for
the case, but anyone can do that, so why risk a possible error?).

There are now folks who specialize in repairing these nifty pieces of
technological ephemera.

I understand the weak point in the design is the 300 tooth escape
wheel which rides the tuning fork.  Fragile teeth.

Tom Frank

Hi Tom,

Yep, there was a weak point there, but not for the reasons you
might imagine.  The big 300 tooth wheel was a ratchet wheel
that was driven by a pair of sapphire pawls that were attached
the tuning fork by a thin springy wire.  The 300 tooth wheel directly
drove the second hand of the watch.  That is why the watch had that
velvet smooth second hand.  If the watchmaker forced the second
hand to rotate, it would bend the springy pieces of wire (not wire
actually), and that was that.

It was difficult adjusting the phase of the two ratchet pawls relative
to the teeth on the wheel.  One pawl had to be half way between a root
and a crest when the motive pawl ligned up with a crest.  A 20-30x
microscope was necessary.... that and a very steady hand.

Electrically the biggest failure item was the tuning fork coils
themselves.  The coils were wound with wire that was around #48
AWG.  It would break, or corrode at the solder joint, and the
watch would stop.  Rewinding the coils is a doable task if you can
get the wire, and you know how to deal with it.

Now days, the 1.35V mercury cells that the Accutron used are no longer
available, and the 1.5V silver oxide cells overdrive the tuning
fork, causing lots of noise, and motion problems.  Changing a resistor,
and adjusting the phase of the pawls will usually allow the use of
politically correct cells.

-Chuck Harris

Thomas A. Frank wrote:

Hi Chuck

Have you ever attempted, or know someone who has rewound or repaired the coils?
There was a guy on the Yahoo Accutron list that was experimenting with it, but I
don't know the final outcome. Seems that wire is thinner than most normally
available wire.
Seems that the "usual" way to deal with the silver oxide vs. mercury battery
problem is to use a schottkey diode in series with the battery (there's even
someone marketing a battery assembly with the diode imbedded, called an
Accucell).  I've been thinking all along that the best way to do it is to
re-bias the transistor.  I've wanted to experiment with that, but I need to come
up with another Accutron, as I don't want to ruin the Spaceview that I got from
my wife on our first Christmas way back in '67!  Know any reasonable sources?
I've been looking on Ebay, but they always seem to get bid way up, even for one
that doesn't run.
Glad to get another time-nuts take on this!

Daun

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf
Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 7:51 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Watches

Hi Tom,

Yep, there was a weak point there, but not for the reasons you
might imagine.  The big 300 tooth wheel was a ratchet wheel
that was driven by a pair of sapphire pawls that were attached
the tuning fork by a thin springy wire.  The 300 tooth wheel directly
drove the second hand of the watch.  That is why the watch had that
velvet smooth second hand.  If the watchmaker forced the second
hand to rotate, it would bend the springy pieces of wire (not wire
actually), and that was that.

It was difficult adjusting the phase of the two ratchet pawls relative
to the teeth on the wheel.  One pawl had to be half way between a root
and a crest when the motive pawl ligned up with a crest.  A 20-30x
microscope was necessary.... that and a very steady hand.

Electrically the biggest failure item was the tuning fork coils
themselves.  The coils were wound with wire that was around #48
AWG.  It would break, or corrode at the solder joint, and the
watch would stop.  Rewinding the coils is a doable task if you can
get the wire, and you know how to deal with it.

Now days, the 1.35V mercury cells that the Accutron used are no longer
available, and the 1.5V silver oxide cells overdrive the tuning
fork, causing lots of noise, and motion problems.  Changing a resistor,
and adjusting the phase of the pawls will usually allow the use of
politically correct cells.

-Chuck Harris

Thomas A. Frank wrote:

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and follow the instructions there.

Chuck,

My dad has one of the original tuning fork Accutron. I know he stopped
wearing it a while back, but I am not sure why. I will ask him if he still
has it and if it works and in case he does, I would like to go back to you
for more information in order to make it work again, if that's OK.

Thanks in advance,

Didier

Hi Daun,

I haven't done it.  I am strictly a mechanical watch guy.  I fix
quartz mechanical watches only because I have a couple in my stable.

It is very fine wire, but not finer than is used in little audio
transformers.  I believe it is #48.  In any case, it is the same
size as most quartz watches use on their stepper motors.  Your best
source may be taking apart a quartz watch, or a transistor radio
transformer.

The original Accutron circuit was designed to operate nominally over
a voltage range of about 1.1V to 1.7V, IIRC.  For this to work, requires
phasing, and a few other adjustments to be exactly correct.  Running over
1.35V really makes the watch sing.  If you leave one on your night stand,
it will drive you nuts!  Re biasing the transistor is the correct
thing to do, but most watch guys aren't EE's, so they look for plugin
solutions.  There was a company that made an adapter between the old
1.35V Hg cell package, and a modern AgO cell.  They included a resistor
in series with the cell to drop the voltage down to a proper level.  This
was sanctioned by Bulova.  Any of these drop in solutions will waste
power from the cell to the tune of 0.2V x I.  Cells wear out on Accutrons
fast enough as it is.

Whatever you do, don't use Wein Cells (Zn-Air).  They put out the correct
voltage, but they also emit water vapor in operation.  Your watch doesn't
need that.  Also, they die in 6 weeks whether you draw current or not.  And
they can use up the free oxygen in the watch case if your seals are good.

One source for reasonably priced accutrons is Tom Mister at dashto.com .
He loves the things, and usually has a few on his website.  He prices things
to his own ideas of what they are worth... not ebay's.

-Chuck Harris

Daun Yeagley wrote:

Hi Didier,

I would bet that it still works, and he couldn't get
mercury cells to power it with anymore.  Accutrons eat cells
for lunch.  You get 1 year and not much more.  Remember the
one transistor oscillator is cranking 24/7, and the hum is
audible if the watch sits on any kind of sounding board.

I'd be happy to help.

-Chuck Harris

Didier Juges wrote:

Hi Didier
I agree with Chuck.  I keep my Accutron on a nightstand beside my bed, and even
with my bad ear, I can hear it humming away!  The one year life for a battery
is about right too.
Mercury cells were what they were designed to run on, and since those are no
longer available, silver oxide cells are used as replacements.  Since the
voltage on these is higher, it drives the tuning fork harder and not only are
they louder, but they need to be "re-phased" so that they index correctly with
the increased amplitude.  This has been a topic of much discussion in Accutron
circles!

Daun

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf
Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:08 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Watches

Hi Didier,

I would bet that it still works, and he couldn't get
mercury cells to power it with anymore.  Accutrons eat cells
for lunch.  You get 1 year and not much more.  Remember the
one transistor oscillator is cranking 24/7, and the hum is
audible if the watch sits on any kind of sounding board.

I'd be happy to help.

-Chuck Harris

Didier Juges wrote:

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and follow the instructions there.

At 8:06 PM -0500 12/3/07, Daun Yeagley wrote:

Funny you should mention that... I was just asked today to wind a
batch of subminiature superconducting magnet coils for the SuperCam
heterodyne submillimeter array receiver they're building down the
hall at my office. I've done it before.

These coils have 1800 turns on a bobbin that's not too much bigger
than those in an Accutron. I seem to remember that the wire is 25
microns - close to 48 gauge.

I use an old old German motorized coil winder that goes smoothly from
very slow to very fast and has a gear-driven traverse mechanism. With
some careful adjustment, it works quite well.

The winder would need a special wire guide made to accommodate the
fact that the bobbin has a protrusion that gets in the way of a
straight wire feed. But that's just a little piece of metal; no big
deal.

This could be a fun sideline if the quantity and price are sufficient
to make it worthwhile.

--David Forbes, Tucson, AZ
http://www.cathodecorner.com/

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:06:01 -0500, "Daun Yeagley" daun@yeagley.net wrote:

I've wanted to experiment with that, but I need to come

There's at least one SpaceView out there in the wild.  The one my "jeweler" stole
from me back in the early 80s.  I took it in to get a new crystal and told him I'd
pick it up when I returned from a trip.  Couple months later when I returned I got
that ole "What watch?" treatment.  Bastid!

Sleazebay isn't a very good source for that kind of stuff.  Watch your area for
estate auctions.  I've seen a few Accutrons go through in the last few years.  They
typically bring very little.  I've been holding out for another SpaceView so I
haven't bought anything.

John

John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Better remain silent and be thought a fool than to cite Wikipedia and remove all doubt.

The Spaceview is the Accutron model that everyone seems to want (even I want one),
so much so that the Chinese are now making the necessary reproduction parts to
convert a model with a normal dial to a Spaceview.

Apparently, there is no fraud so large, or so small that somebody in China
won't do the work necessary to make the fraud possible.

-Chuck Harris

Neon John wrote:

Hi John

I don't think you are alone in that boat.  Not only that, but don't send one to
Bulova to get fixed.  They'll just swap the magical parts and replace it with a
(not very good) quartz movement.  To me that kills the whole reason for having
one in the first place.
I agree on the Sleezebay comment too.  I just need to find enough time to get to
some estate auctions.  That really does seem to be the place to find them.  I've
tried to notify some friends that tend to go to those to be looking out for me.
I figure the more eyes out there looking, the better the chances.

Daun

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf
Of Neon John
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 4:05 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Watches

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:06:01 -0500, "Daun Yeagley" daun@yeagley.net wrote:

I've wanted to experiment with that, but I need to come

There's at least one SpaceView out there in the wild.  The one my "jeweler"
stole
from me back in the early 80s.  I took it in to get a new crystal and told him
I'd
pick it up when I returned from a trip.  Couple months later when I returned I
got
that ole "What watch?" treatment.  Bastid!

Sleazebay isn't a very good source for that kind of stuff.  Watch your area for
estate auctions.  I've seen a few Accutrons go through in the last few years.
They
typically bring very little.  I've been holding out for another SpaceView so I
haven't bought anything.

John

John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Better remain silent and be thought a fool than to cite Wikipedia and remove all
doubt.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.

Yeah, and I sure hope they don't poison something in the process.

Daun

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf
Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 5:54 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Watches

The Spaceview is the Accutron model that everyone seems to want (even I want
one),
so much so that the Chinese are now making the necessary reproduction parts to
convert a model with a normal dial to a Spaceview.

Apparently, there is no fraud so large, or so small that somebody in China
won't do the work necessary to make the fraud possible.

-Chuck Harris

Neon John wrote:

from

sources?

stole

I'd

got

one

for

They

all doubt.

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Hi Chuck,

Well, there is another point of view to consider.  If Bulova cannot see the need then MAYBE
there is nothing wrong with someone else providing that which is wanted.

Of course they should be up front and put there own name on it.  It seems that Bulova has
cheapened their product to some extent and are not paying attention to the market.

Bill....WB6BNQ

Chuck Harris wrote: