One of the things that I have been curious about with a fixed mount
FLIR is the effect of any kind of a sea on the picture.  I've not
seen any kind of indication that any of these units are image
stabilized.  Flat Earth has not experienced many ocean passages
smooth enough where a non stabilized image would be useful.  I have
been looking at several hand held units which could be considered
"human stabilized".    This could open up a discussion of the merits
of a hand held unit vs a permanently mounted unit.

Phil Eslinger
Flat Earth  N50
Ko Olina, Hi.

Phil asked:  One of the things that I have been curious about with a fixed
mount
FLIR is the effect of any kind of a sea on the picture.

I can tell you we had a 4' swell and it was very manageable.  I was
concerned about seasickness being induced by looking at the screen, but
didn't experience it.  In a serious sea I do think it would become a
problem.  Adding image stabilization to it would increase the cost
dramatically, when it's marginally affordable considering the benefit
already.  IMHO, Scott

Funny, as John noticed thousands of these have been sold and to the best of
my knowledge I'm one of the few people to suggest I bought something that
didn't live up to the hype.  It's hard to admit you paid for something and
didn't get what you hoped for, kind of like putting salt in an open wound.
Anyway, anyone that wants to see this stuff is welcome to come on my boat
and see it!  I'll try to get a flip video of it and put it on youtube.
Thanks, scott

I have the NVTi 5000 FLIR unit, which is permanently mounted, but not
stabilized.

Although not stabilized, it does a better job than I would have expected at
being stable when in use. I have no complaint with its stability.

The camera has three modes:

• Normal color video (daylight)
• Thermal Imaging
• Ultra low-light

I put samples of the three operating modes on this webpage:

http://www.nordhavn68.com/m/364952

As you can see in the pictures, the ultra low light mode (they claim .00015
lux) isn't in focus. The focusing is set at the factory, and is hard wired
at infinity. Adjusting the focus (for the ultra low light mode) means taking
the camera off and sending it to the factory.

Here's a link to the manufacturers site:
http://nightvisiontechnologies.com/products/5000series/

In addition to looking kind of "spiffy", it has a very cool feature: You can
highlight any ARPA or AIS target on the radar and the camera will
automatically track it. I thought I would use this, for finding targets
while at sea, but in actual practice I never found it better than looking
out the window. Perhaps when they get the low-light mode focused it will be
useful.

My sample image isn't a perfect representation of the thermal imaging mode,
because it was taken during day light hours when everything was warmed by
the sun. That said, had I taken this same image on a dark moonless night, it
wouldn't have looked all that different. The thermal imaging mode at close
range, in clear conditions, is very good when there is a clear temperature
differentiation between objects.

A swimmer on a pitch black night would be very visible - I'm guessing, but
perhaps as far as a half mile away. On the other hand, a log which has been
in the water for a while, would be at roughly the same temperature as the
water, and not visible until perhaps a hundred yards. I never was able to
test on a log at night, but did see birds, and crab traps, and was always
too close to them by the time they appeared to have been able to avoid them
had it been necessary.

My real hope for the system had been to use as an aid cruising at night, and
in fog, in the Pacific NW, where logs are common. I had also hoped that it
would assist in spotting unlit fishing boats (such as the Earthrace
collision). The problem with this is that it is so unlikely that we would
encounter an unlit boat while cruising, which escapes radar, that even if I
leave the night vision going on a monitor, no one is likely to be watching
it.

I had also thought it would come in handy entering strange ports at night --
but, a few weeks ago I entered Crescent City (which was certainly strange to
me) in pitch black, and shut the night vision down, deciding I preferred
pitch dark, so I could see the buoys.

At this point, I'm still a fan of night vision, but thinking the right
answer is a high-end set of binoculars. I had a set previously of Gen 3
binoculars and found them very handy. Unfortunately, they went with my
previous boat when it was sold.

-Ken Williams
www.nordhavn68.com
Sans Souci

-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
Philip Eslinger
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:45 AM
To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PUP] FLIR and Nauticomp display

One of the things that I have been curious about with a fixed mount
FLIR is the effect of any kind of a sea on the picture.  I've not
seen any kind of indication that any of these units are image
stabilized.  Flat Earth has not experienced many ocean passages
smooth enough where a non stabilized image would be useful.  I have
been looking at several hand held units which could be considered
"human stabilized".    This could open up a discussion of the merits
of a hand held unit vs a permanently mounted unit.

Phil Eslinger
Flat Earth  N50
Ko Olina, Hi.

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Ken suggested:  I had also hoped that it would assist in spotting unlit
fishing boats (such as the Earthrace collision). The problem with this is
that it is so unlikely that we would encounter an unlit boat while cruising,
which escapes radar, that even if I leave the night vision going on a
monitor, no one is likely to be watching it.

Scott suggests:  I've been told there are a lot of wooden fishing boats in
Mexico and CA that have people sleeping in them at night and are completely
unlit.  A friend I'm traveling with said it was very common to come across
these manned boats close and far from shore in the middle of the night.  He
went on to say that sometimes the boats will start up and chase after you,
or the faster boats will circle around you, again unlit and not on your
radar (too close at this point).  This is the scenario where I would hope to
identify some fishermen versus someone wishing to do us harm.  I don't know
that I could really tell the difference, but if they came close enough to
attempt a boarding I plan to try to ram them.  At that point I'll hope and
pray my Nordhavn has thicker fiberglass then their panga or other craft.  As
I suggested early in my posting I do believe these devices will have a large
payoff, but it won't be in the area I originally hoped, the crap pot dodge.

What a great exchange of feedback, I bet the FLIR manufacture would love a
chance to comment?

Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA

Funny, Ken choose to use screen shots that include a boat of the type I use
to own (yes my Camano 31 finally sold :).  I can almost make out the owner,
I think it's Ron in Latitude.  So much for anonymity while cruising!  As Ken
also  suggested, these thermal cameras are great for capturing images in a
marina or on the trade show floor.  It gives a whole new meeting to the
phrase Hot Mamma!  Oh boy, I'm in trouble now  :)

Scott

The Dashews are in Eureka, waiting for some gales so they can go "surfing"

http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/dashew/dashew424.html

These are the same folks who ride through Devil's Hole with a nine
knot current (with the autopilot steering!):

http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/dashew/dashew416.html

Each to their own.

Steve

Steve Dubnoff
1966 Willard Pilothouse
www.mvnereid.com
sdubnoff@circlesys.com

There are a number of us pinned down on in the region by this gale.  Paloma
and Alanui are in Brookings waiting out the same forecast.  The predicted
winds have yet to materialize.  Marian and I have had a delightful day
washing the boat, its sunny, clear and beautiful here!

The Dashew's have decades of experience and a purpose built boat.  I suspect
to them this is no worse than a spring breeze crossing between NZ and
Australia.  Amazing how perspective and experience change everything?

Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA

Last week, we had a discussion about Flir. I spoke with the head of
marketing at NVTi, the maker of my unit to see if they wanted to comment.
They said they would, and perhaps they shall.

In the meantime, I'm passing along this posting on the same subject that was
on the Nordhavn list last week (with the author's permission).

-Ken Williams
Nordhavn68.com, Sans Souci

To all:

There has been a lot of valuable technical discussion, trade-off analysis,
and practical insight on the FLIR. I'm now going to add a little personal
experience to this discussion.

Just like the AIS, I believe the FLIR capability provides an additional
resource to enhance safety. MOANA KUEWA has a ThermoVision Mariner that
shows an object which has a temperature that radiates in the infrared. It
has a pan and tilt camera assembly and a remote joystick for steering the
camera. It is powered off a standard 12V battery and provides a composite
video output. I display it on my Samsung TV that is mounted in the overhead
corner of my pilothouse. Here are a few "real" examples of its benefit:

MedBound 2007 - Leg 3 (between Horta,Faial,Azores and Gibraltar in May
2007).  My crew member, Mary Ann Edson-Plumb, was on watch. At 2135 hrs, she
thought she saw a dim light approximately = nm dead-ahead (no AIS, no radar
signature, no radio communication, nothing. - not atypical of many small
sailboats on long passages trying to conserve energy by turning off all
lights, electronics.....AND GOING TO SLEEP). She studied the FLIR and was
able to identify the sailboat when it breached the top of the large rollers
just in time to adjust course without incident.

Approaching the San Blas Islands in Panama (after transiting the Panama
Canal the day before on January 19th, 2007). After departing the Shelter
Island Marina at the north end of the Panama Canal, MOANA KUEWA encountered
6-15 foot waves with 15-25 knot winds off our bow. We had a sea-sick crew
member and arrived after dark in the Gulf of San Blas. Our plan was to
anchor in a protected area around the point near the airport. This was the
closest anchorage that would protect us from the winds and surge. It was a
moonless/starless night. The FLIR really paid for itself when suddenly we
saw three anchored sailboats 1 to 1 = nm directly in our path. Again, they
did not have ANY LIGHTS, electronics, or radar reflectors. Seeing them
allowed us to quickly complete a 1800 turn, avoid the multitude of
reefs/rocks, and find safe anchorage in the Bahia de Tiburon (Bay of
Sharks).

During our "shake-down" cruise between Dana Point, CA, and Stockton, CA, in
August 2006, we encountered 10-12 foot rollers and 2-3 foot wind waves
around Point Conception (both heading north and then again heading south). I
was on watch both nights in the pitch-dark when again you cannot see
anything from the pilothouse (no moon, no stars, overcast, and 40 miles off
the coast). We were taking water over the bow on occasion and spray up to
the pilothouse. The FLIR allowed me to see the waves I was facing heading
north and the waves I was sliding down heading south. There is a degree of
"comfort" in this type of visibility.

Besides safety, the FLIR allowed us to see some beautiful sights at night.
During the Atlantic crossing, we were able to see the flying fish skim the
inside of the curl of waves, schools of fish swimming a few inches below the
surface, dolphins racing ahead of MOANA KUEWA's bow, and dramatic rainstorms
on the horizon.

Obviously, I believe the FLIR is worth the price.

Christine M. Bauman
Captain/Sole Manager of MOANA KUEWA, L.L.C.
Nordhavn 55, Hull #11