It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and L3
phases of the house. :)

there is no current in the neutral so the losses in the line from pole to
house are based on a 240 load rather than 120.  (1/4, for the same size

You have to use a lot more power than a typical house to get 3 phase.

are PG&E's rules:
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_RULES_2.pdf

--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.

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Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes?

A simple way to measure the line frequency (up to a given precision...)
is to watch on a waterfall program to one of its harmonics.

In the following picture you can see the 53rd harmonic of the 50 Hz line
frequency in Italy. It was captured by just connecting a random length
of wire to the line input of a sound card, thus capturing the ambient hum.

More sophisticated ways can be used, of course....  :-)

http://www.sdradio.eu/images/53x50hzita.jpg

73  Alberto  I2PHD

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Alberto,

That's a cute plot. I see 53 x 50 = 2650. What is the x axis scale?

But I'm curious -- the pending issue with 60 Hz in the US is more about
uncorrected long-term accumulated time drift and less about short-term
frequency stability.

So it seems like you would have to integrate all the wiggles in the 53rd
harmonic of your waterfall plot in order to compute time drift, yes?

Is there any chance you could run both the waterfall frequency monitor
and also a 50 Hz phase comparator for a couple of days to see how
well (or how poorly) one can compute the net long-term mains time drift
from a set of independent short-term frequency deviation measurements?

A simple way to measure the line frequency (up to a given precision...)
is to watch on a waterfall program to one of its harmonics.

In the following picture you can see the 53rd harmonic of the 50 Hz line
frequency in Italy. It was captured by just connecting a random length
of wire to the line input of a sound card, thus capturing the ambient hum.

Will Matney wrote:

  snip

  As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major
  roads where business resides, but when you get into the residential
  areas, it's only single phase on the poles.

  Best,

  Will

Will,

I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue).  In
residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4
KV.  Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center
tapped via a transformer.  AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt
lines at a lower level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that
transformer.  Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are
stringers from a transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but
only because there was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that
direction.

The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation.
That is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected
(single phase) alternately across different phases.

At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast !  I realize
there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country,
particularly along the East Coast.

I am located in San Diego, CA area.  What part of the country are you
in ?

Bill....WB6BNQ

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On 6/26/2011 at 4:27 PM WB6BNQ wrote:
Will Matney wrote:
snip
As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major roads

Best,
Will

Will,
I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue).  In

The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation.  That

At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast !  I realize

I am located in San Diego, CA area.  What part of the country are you in ?

Bill....WB6BNQ

Bill,

I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where

general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the

WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your
thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all the
way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river.

I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2
miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the
Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot
wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral, the
telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug
onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out of
the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the pole,
if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like
that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county seat
at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along the
highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all
residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's
because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now
that's it built up over the past 30 years. The farms are gone, and in

and follow the instructions there.

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http://www.eset.com

Bill,

I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where the
general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the Huntington,
WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your
thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all the
way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river.

I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2
miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the
Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot
wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral, the
telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug
onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out of
the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the pole,
if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like
that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county seat
at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along the
highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all
residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's
because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now
that's it built up over the past 30 years. The farms are gone, and in their
place are new sub divisions, but they still run the power to the new homes
the same way. To have three phase here, you either have to own property by
the highway (St Rt 7), or you use a converter. I guess that's just the way
AEP wants to do it.

Best,

Will

?*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
?
?On 6/26/2011 at 4:27 PM WB6BNQ wrote:
?Will Matney wrote:
?snip
?As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major roads
where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas, it's
only single phase on the poles.
?
?Best,
?Will
?
?Will,
?I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue).  In
residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 KV.
Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center tapped via a
transformer.  AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt lines at a lower
level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that transformer.
Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are stringers from a
transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but only because there
was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that direction.
?The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation.  That
is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected (single
phase) alternately across different phases.
?At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast !  I realize
there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, particularly
along the East Coast.
?I am located in San Diego, CA area.  What part of the country are you in ?

?Bill....WB6BNQ

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Will,

What you describe does NOT make sense.  When you say nuetral or ground do

mean a second wire ?  Surely you do not mean they are using the earth

return path ?  That would be terribly inefficient !  Equally, if the 220

tap is earthed along with one side of the higher voltage from the primary

the transformer, then I could see where some serious issues if the return

gets interrupted but the center tap and return line from the transformer

still connected.

If I am understanding what you are saying, such a layout would not provide

reliable operation for the last drop point if it is a very long run.

Just how long are these single wire runs ?  Do you know what the voltage

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Bill,

I'm not sure what the voltage is, as I remember asking about it at one
time, when the transformer went belly up, and I think he said 4 kV, but I'm
not sure. Now, as to the neutral wire, it runs along the poles just under
the hot, and about even with the transformer. It's a two wire system, with
ground, they have running, and they feed about a two block stretch behind
two rows of houses (along our back yards). The insulated neutral is
carried, or supported, by an uninsulated aluminum cable, or ground, between
the poles. Actually, it's what they use to attach it to the side of the
pole with. There is a small spiral wire that wraps around the insulated
neutral and ground, and holds the two together in a bundle. In other words,
counting the hot on top of the pole, there would be three wires, a neutral,
ground, and a hot. They bug onto the neutral directly from the transformers
primary, and to the hot, on top of the pole, through the blow out fuse. Of
course the seconday carries the normal 220-110 Vac single phase into the
home, and that ground runs down the pole to a ground rod, which is also
tied to the ground (that runs with the neutral) from pole to pole, and is
attached to a ground rod at the home too.

No, if they tried to use the earth as a return, that would be really bad
news, it's ground only. What they do here, is down by the highway, they
have a larger transformer, hooked to the three phase main line, that feeds
these different single phase lines to the rows of homes. About every row
goes to its own transformer at the end of the line, as I have been without
power, or my whole row has, and the row of houses in front of me, across
the street, and behind me, across that street, have power. That in turn
means that the fuse has opened down at the highway, at that transformer
bank, over a short up this line somewhere, generally due to a tree limb
making contact with the hot on the top of the pole.

I don't have a photo of the pole here, but all we have is a pole with a
single insulator on the tip top. It has no means of carrying multiple hots
like you describe on arms, for the three phases. Just below the hot, about
two feet down the pole, is where the ground and neutral run. That is also
about the top of the transformers that feed the homes here. The only thing
we have that set up like your speaking of is down by the highway. You would
have to know AEP, as they are bad to undersize everything, especially
transformers. Here, they had five houses running off a transformer meant
for two, or three at the most, until it finally gave out. I complained,
they sent up a supreviser, and they upsized it, and we've had no more
trouble.

Best,

Will

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 6/26/2011 at 5:52 PM WB6BNQ wrote:

?Will,
?
?What you describe does NOT make sense.  When you say nuetral or ground do
you
?mean a second wire ?  Surely you do not mean they are using the earth
(dirt) as a
?return path ?  That would be terribly inefficient !  Equally, if the 220
center
?tap is earthed along with one side of the higher voltage from the primary
side of
?the transformer, then I could see where some serious issues if the return
path
?gets interrupted but the center tap and return line from the transformer
are
?still connected.
?
?If I am understanding what you are saying, such a layout would not provide
a very
?reliable operation for the last drop point if it is a very long run.
?
?Just how long are these single wire runs ?  Do you know what the voltage
is on
?that top wire ?
?
?Could you clarify this a bit more ?
?
?Bill....WB6BNQ
?
?
?Will Matney wrote:
?
?? Bill,
??
?? I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where
the
?? general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the
Huntington,
?? WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your
?? thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all
the
?? way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river.
??
?? I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2
?? miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the
?? Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot
?? wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral,
the
?? telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug
?? onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out
of
?? the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the
pole,
?? if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like
?? that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county
seat
?? at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along
the
?? highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all
?? residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's
?? because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now
?? that's it built up over the past 30 years. The farms are gone, and in
their
?? place are new sub divisions, but they still run the power to the new
homes
?? the same way. To have three phase here, you either have to own property
by
?? the highway (St Rt 7), or you use a converter. I guess that's just the
way
?? AEP wants to do it.
??
?? Best,
??
?? Will
??
?? ?*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
?? ?
?? ?On 6/26/2011 at 4:27 PM WB6BNQ wrote:
?? ?Will Matney wrote:
?? ?snip
?? ?As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major
roads
?? where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas,
it's
?? only single phase on the poles.
?? ?
?? ?Best,
?? ?Will
?? ?
?? ?Will,
?? ?I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue).  In
?? residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 KV.
?? Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center tapped via
a
?? transformer.  AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt lines at a lower
?? level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that transformer.
?? Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are stringers from
a
?? transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but only because
there
?? was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that direction.
?? ?The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation.
That
?? is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected (single
?? phase) alternately across different phases.
?? ?At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast !  I realize
?? there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, particularly
?? along the East Coast.
?? ?I am located in San Diego, CA area.  What part of the country are you
in ?
??
?? ?Bill....WB6BNQ
??
?? _______________________________________________
?? time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
?? To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
?? and follow the instructions there.
?
?
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signature database 5851 (20110206) __________
?
?The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
?
?http://www.eset.com

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