Re: PowerPulse battery magic - or snake oil?
[SNIP]
So then I guess that any further evaluation of this PowerPulse system
should consider both uses of a battery: cranking, and storage. I'm
curious to know if this sulfate can be put back into solution or not. I've
always understood that it falls to the bottom of the case, and there it
stays. Who can shed any additional light onto the matter? Any battery
experts lurking out there?
-
Remember that an expert is just an ordinary man a long way from home.
-
Unless physically damaged, the standard lead-acid battery can be charged
and discharged an unlimited number of times. The base lead in the cell (I
forgot its name) is turned into lead sulfate each and every time it
discharges. It is returned to its original condition each and every time it
is charged. This is the well known electrical - chemical process of the
cell. It must be remembered that this all works infinitely only in a
perfect world. -
The lead sulfate is not as well attached to the plates at the original
lead. Mechanical vibrations will cause it to fall to the bottom. If it
does fall to the bottom, it can't be recovered. This is one of the main
causes of battery capacity loss. The mass of the stuff which falls to the
bottom is part of the material which gives the battery capacity. When you
lose a pint from a quart, you only have a pint left.
One of the major reasons for cells to "short" is for the lead sulfate to
make contact between two cells as it accumulates on the bottom.
-
Leaving a battery in less than a charged condition makes some amount of
lead sulfate remain on the surface of the plates. It gets hard and makes it
difficult for a charging current to drive acid through the cell and charge
the cell. When this condition exists, the cell gets what is called a
"Surface Charge." The voltage increases on the surface of the cell, but the
resistance doesn't let the acid penetrate completely so the cell has only a
little charge which is quickly lost under load. -
One way to restore the capacity of a battery in good condition is to
completely discharge it with a moderate load and then recharge it several
times in succession. This will help the acid finally get through the hard
lead sulfate. I have been able to restore more than 90 percent of the
capacity to many RV batteries using this process. In fact, I used to do
this function for my friends all the time. -
In theory, a battery should have only water and acid in its electrolyte.
Adding anything else should be done only with great care. In the past,
some chemicals have shown a short improvement in battery performance by
making the hard lead sulfate soft and allowing the acid to penetrate better.
Those chemicals can not, however, reclaim the lead sulfate which has already
fallen to the bottom. They can do, and need to do, nothing about soft lead
sulfate which will be returned to its original state when the battery is
recharged timely and properly. -
The most important tool you can have with a battery is a hydrometer.
Reading and analyzing the specific gravity of a lead-acid battery will tell
you the whole story about the battery. -
The most important things you can do to maintain lead-acid battery life
are, don't expose them to loads above their rating, charge them properly
immediately upon discharge, protect them from vibrations when discharged,
keep the water and specific gravity proper, and don't let them freeze. -
If your lead-acid battery is not lasting at least twice as long as the
warranty period, you're doing something wrong. Well maintained batteries
need nothing else. Poorly maintained batteries can not survive long in any
event.
CaptnWil
40 Pier Pointe
New Bern NC 28562
(252) 636-3601
captnwil@coastalnet.com
Thankyou Wil,
You have answered questions I've often wondered about. I was in the Marine
Electronics business for about 20 years so I grew to have a close
relationship with batteries.
A word of warning to those working around batteries; they will blow up if
in a gaesous state from a close by spark and if you make enough of short
across 12 volts as I did by lying across an engine while sweaty with no
shirt on and my metal watch band on my sweaty wrist touched the positive
cable on the starter motor: WOW I still carry the scars on my wrist from
the burn I received. Talk about the smell of flesh cooking.
The morale is batteries are packed with power, caution when you work around
them.
Al
Captain Al Pilvinis M/V Driftwood--- Prairie 46
2630 N.E. 41st Street
Lighthouse Point, Fl 33064-8064 954-941-2556 Fax 954-788-2666
Email CaptainAl@Juno.com Check site for color photos and info.
Website http://home.earthlink.net/~yourcaptain/
Here is what I found on initial research on batteries:
Three types:
- Absorbed glass mat(AGM) batteries
- Gel batteries
- Flooded batteries
AGM and Gel cost double initially, but the cost per amp hour is so much
lower than Flooded, that it will make up more than the initial cost in a
very short time and you will actually save money, and AGM and Gel are sealed
and maintenance free!!! One word of caution, make sure your alternator or
charger(s) have voltage regulators, most of the good chargers have them
built right in, because AGM and Gel can be damaged by overcharging.
Safety note, AGM and Gel don't release dangerous hydrogen gas, if you
have ever seen or heard a car battery blow, you will appreciate that
feature.
Any other questions on this topic, just ask as I am doing continual
research. This is what I consider one of the more important topics, as I
have had metric tons more problems with batteries than with engine oil. I
had to throw that in.
Myles
Capn Will,
Why is it said to only put distilled water in a battery?
Myles
Hi Myles,
Fromeverything I have read about Gel batteries they say they are a waste
of money. Their capacty is no greater Same time to recharge and the voltage
out put is slightly less, so voltage sensitive equipment will shut down
sooner such as inverters. The good point is if you want to cruise upside
down they won't spill.
This is from magazine articles, nothing I have personally researched.
Al
Captain Al Pilvinis M/V Driftwood--- Prairie 46
2630 N.E. 41st Street
Lighthouse Point, Fl 33064-8064 954-941-2556 Fax 954-788-2666
Email CaptainAl@Juno.com Check site for color photos and info.
Website http://home.earthlink.net/~yourcaptain/
Capt Al,
Ditto, that is pretty much the same opinion I am forming on Gel. That
is why I am leaning toward AGM. With the AGM, you get about 10% more CCA
and MCA, and the biggest benefit for me, since I will be installing an
inverter, is the reserve minutes. AGM has 100% more reserve minutes than
Gel or Flooded. Oh yeah, AGM has about 20% more amp hours also.
The only real negatives on AGM for me is the high initial cost, which is
quickly made up and then some, and the weight, they weigh about 50lbs more
than a flooded battery, they can be installed sideways or at any angle,
however. I better eat my Wheaties before I install em !!!
Myles
Rejuvenating old batteries if OK unless you must totally rely on that
rejuvinated battery. If it fails unexpedly, it's usually a lot more
expensive than replacing it at the first sign of trouble. If the single
battery in my boat or car even slightly burps after a couple years -
it's history.
Nick in Spartanburg, SC
PS I'm looking for the papers we kept with the sailboat to see if there
are any records re: provisioning -- I'm not optomistic; it was back in
the early 70's, but even if there are no papers I will enjoy the
opportunity to try and revive some of those aging memories.
There's two things that happen to us as we get older. The first thing
is our memory starts to go...and, well I can't remember what the second
thing is.
[snip]
5. One way to restore the capacity of a battery in good condition is to
completely discharge it with a moderate load and then recharge it
several
times in succession.
[snip]
Hi Myles:
Something to consider when you are replacing batteries. On my last boat,
some 20 odd years ago, I removed a large, heavy, hard to handle 8D's and
replaced them with 3 Die Hards, 550cca. Had no problems, was cranking a
rather large Cummins engine at that time, they were a lot easier to handle
and the warranty was 6 years compared to 24 months on the 8D's. The nice
part about this package was that if a cell went bad in one of the
batteries, I just replaced the one battery at much less expense than
replacing the whole 8D. This system worked so well that one of the first
things on I did on my present boat was to removed the large battery and put
in 6 Die Hards, 2 3-battery banks. I am running a lot of 12V equipment and
a 2,000KW inverter and the ship's power supply has been working just fine.
An interesting side light was we met some people in the Bahamas who lost
the battery for their generator, we gave them one of ours and never missed
it. Another comforting thought is that any one of those 6 batteries will
start up my diesel engines and generator and get me home. This is not
possible the way most battery systems in boats are set up and one of the
nice features of the new batteries - they have built in handles for easy
handling. Just think how much easier it is to install or remove a battery
the size of one you have in your car compared to one of those marine suckers.
Just a hint, when you go to buy these batteries, tell the salesman you are
buying them for a car instead of a boat, otherwise the warranty will be cut
in half and purchase the ones with the maximum cca (cold cranking amps),
marine cranking amps are half of cold cranking amps. Two batteries, marine
and auto with the same cranking amp number, the auto battery will have
twice the capacity.
Food for thought, works and has worked for me.
Al
Captain Al Pilvinis M/V Driftwood--- Prairie 46
2630 N.E. 41st Street
Lighthouse Point, Fl 33064-8064 954-941-2556 Fax 954-788-2666
Email CaptainAl@Juno.com Check site for color photos and info.
Website http://home.earthlink.net/~yourcaptain/
chud wrote:
Here is what I found on initial research on batteries:
Three types:
- Absorbed glass mat(AGM) batteries
- Gel batteries
- Flooded batteries
AGM and Gel cost double initially, but the cost per amp hour is so much
lower than Flooded, (snip)
I don;t believe this is true. Cost/amp hour is higher than flooded cell
batteries. ( a Prevailer 8D cost about $459 for 210 amp hour, while a good
flooded cell costs $200
for 225 amp hours, and will get more cycles of discharge-charge per battery)
Dick B.
Dick B. wrote:
"I don't believe this is true. Cost/amp hour is higher than flooded cell
batteries. ( a Prevailer 8D cost about $459 for 210 amp hour, while a good
flooded cell costs $200
for 225 amp hours, and will get more cycles of discharge-charge per
battery)
Dick B."
Well, my research shows that you can expect 1,000 cycles or more from
an AGM battery, and only about 300-350 from a flooded cell battery. How
many cycles can you get from your flooded cell? Lifeline AGM Batteries,
made by Concorde, advertises 255 amp-hours and over 1,000 cycles, all while
providing 1,350 CCA and a whopping 801 reserve minutes. If you got a
flooded cell that will do all that for $200, please let me know ASAP and
thanx! in advance.
Myles