Emergency tiller
There are few people who's opinion I value more than Peter, so if he says a
N40 is no better or worse than other boats I must adjust my perspective.
For the benefit of others I'll describe my frame of reference and current
experience so my opinion can be measured:
a. Previous to my N40 I operated only a half dozen or so boats. This
included a 17' catamaran sailboat, two 17' outboard powered runabout fishing
boats, a 31 foot Camano (fast trawler) a charter 36 Grand Banks and various
other craft. All these boats would hold a reasonable course for say 100
yards without helm input. I could set the helm in a direction and they boat
would either track straight or require very little if any input to keep them
true for the 100 or so yards. When input was needed it was very slight,
more like a nudge.
b. On the N40 if I get it heading straight and true the most I can expect
is 15 or 20 seconds of time to elapse before I need to provide helm input to
return it to a straight path. In other words, after 15 or 20 seconds, if
input is not provided the boat will fall off in one direction or another.
Once its fallen to port or starboard it will hold that set until helm is
provided to return it to a straight path, and the process repeats.
It sound like this may be perfectly normal and in fact when Capt. Mike was
on the boat he said I was over controlling it, so I've made a significant
effort to modify my behavior and try to get better at hand steering. When I
asked the owner of a Krogen 44 if his boat showed the same tendencies he
told me he could establish a course and not touch the helm for 4 or 5
minutes. I believe him, as we often discuss the warts on our boats.
So, I don't know if it's my boat, or my lack of experience, but I just feel
that the hull is less stable than other boats with a kinder, more stable
shape.
Sincerely,
Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA
Your stabilizer fins have "end-plates" on them. I wonder if these plates
could be accenuating any tendency of the boat to wander an acceptable
amount. Sounds like your autopilot gets allot of work.
Ron Rogers
The issue about wandering is pretty typical for that kind of hull
design. It's not that every model or even all the built boats in a model
group will have the problem, but it is a known problem.
The steel Cape Horn Trawlers were prone. I recall a specific 55' that
was very prone and I have heard that it had a lot of effort put into
fixing it, with mediocre improvement.
Heeling from wind pressure changes the underwater profile, which changes
the dynamics of the underwater resistance. If the boat hasn't enough
keel to maintain strait line stability under some or all conditions, it
will exhibit these undesirable traits.
Adding Niade type fins, changes the resistance and all of this is
complex enough as to be not susceptible of easy diagnosis or fixing.
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Beaverton Oregon(Near Portland)
Dear Scott:
I personally have over 15,000 miles on both of the 40s that we have owned and
I can tell you with absolute confidence that the N40 steers beautifully under
all conditions. I have video of the boat running down swell during gale
conditions in the Pacific and then even tougher conditions in the
Mediterranean and it shows the boat tracking straight with little yaw despite
the steep and high seas coming up astern . We all marveled that during our
around the world voyage on N40#21 there was never one time when the boat had
to be hand steered during the many gales and a few storms we encountered.
I understand that you believe the boat is steering badly with the fins
centered and locked and if your observation is correct then I suggest that you
have air in your steering system. Your boat is equipped with Hynautic
equipment and the bleeding process is relatively easy but you must do it
exactly as stated by Hynautic within their operators manual.
The problem is easy to understand if you think of it in simple terms. A
hydraulic steering system free of air provides precise steering with very
little play. A system with air entrapped within is mushy and has lots of play.
When you initially apply rudder the forces against the rudder are at their
greatest. As the boat begins to turn and momentum is developed the force on
the rudder is slightly reduced. If you have air in the system and the rudder
is initially deflected the air within the steering system compresses until the
compression is sufficient to move the rudder. As the force against the rudder
is reduced after the turn is initiated then the compressed air causes the
rudder to move farther with no further input from the helm.
This is particularly true when running in any kind of sea. As the sea rolls
under the boat it tries to turn the boat until the helmsman or autopilot
recognizes what is happening and the rudder is deflected to stop the turn and
bring the boat back on course. The boat is turning and momentum has developed.
The rudder is deflected and the loads against are significantly more that what
is required in a turn from a straight line due to the momentum which has to be
overcome. The helm is turned and the air compresses against the heavily loaded
rudder just to stop the turn in progress. As the turn stops the load is
reduced the air expands, the rudder moves even further. As the turn is now in
process the momentum is established and the load on the rudder is further
decreased. Again the air expands and the rudder moves even farther causing the
boat to turn too far. Finally big counter rudder is applied to stop the
excessive turn and then the process repeats itself over and over.
Before you condemn your boat to the world I suggest you carefully go through
the process of bleeding the steering system and I'm certain that if your boat
is indeed steering badly with fins locked and centered - air is the problem
and you will see a remarkable improvement.
Best Regards,
Jim Leishman
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Bulger
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 4:14 PM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: Re: [PUP] Emergency tiller
on the Trac units I run them either Active or Off. If Off they are
also pinned in place, they do not move. The boat, with the fins off
and pinned wanders all over the sea like a sailor on shore leave in
the Roja district.
What more can I say?
Scott
On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Ron Rogers rcrogers6@kennett.net wrote:
Let me be more clear. On my ancient Naiads there be "Off" and "Centered"
and
"On." "Centered" on my boat means that the system is on and hydraulic
pressure is holding the fins rigid - locked. This can also be done with the
pins provided. Mine can move around when the system is "Off."
I noticed the difference both when heading into 5 and 6 foot seas and when
docking, My boat handles better when docking (astern) if the Naiads (Model
252) are "Centered."
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott E. Bulger" scottebulger@gmail.com
To: "'Passagemaking Under Power List'"
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [PUP] Emergency tiller
| As I said:
|
|
| "it does it with our without the fins active."
|
| Wanders like the eyes of a teenage boy at the prom...
|
| Scott
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
| [mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
| Ron Rogers
| Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 1:11 PM
| To: Passagemaking Under Power List
| Subject: Re: [PUP] Emergency tiller
|
| Before excusing the stabilizer fins, try going straight with the fins
| "centered." I'll bet she stays on course.
|
| Ron Rogers
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Yeah Scott, it's obviously your fault, not the makers. :) ;).> Date: Tue, 18
Mar 2008 17:11:47 -0700> From: jim@nordhavn.com> To:
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> Subject: Re: [PUP] Emergency
tiller> > Dear Scott:> > I personally have over 15,000 miles on both of the
40s that we have owned and> I can tell you with absolute confidence that the
N40 steers beautifully under> all conditions. I have video of the boat running
down swell during gale> conditions in the Pacific and then even tougher
conditions in the> Mediterranean and it shows the boat tracking straight with
little yaw despite> the steep and high seas coming up astern . We all marveled
that during our> around the world voyage on N40#21 there was never one time
when the boat had> to be hand steered during the many gales and a few storms
we encountered.> > I understand that you believe the boat is steering badly
with the fins> centered and locked and if your observation is correct then I
suggest that you> have air in your steering system. Your boat is equipped with
Hynautic> equipment and the bleeding process is relatively easy but you must
do it> exactly as stated by Hynautic within their operators manual.> > The
problem is easy to understand if you think of it in simple terms. A> hydraulic
steering system free of air provides precise steering with very> little play.
A system with air entrapped within is mushy and has lots of play.> When you
initially apply rudder the forces against the rudder are at their> greatest.
As the boat begins to turn and momentum is developed the force on> the rudder
is slightly reduced. If you have air in the system and the rudder> is
initially deflected the air within the steering system compresses until the>
compression is sufficient to move the rudder. As the force against the rudder>
is reduced after the turn is initiated then the compressed air causes the>
rudder to move farther with no further input from the helm.> > This is
particularly true when running in any kind of sea. As the sea rolls> under the
boat it tries to turn the boat until the helmsman or autopilot> recognizes
what is happening and the rudder is deflected to stop the turn and> bring the
boat back on course. The boat is turning and momentum has developed.> The
rudder is deflected and the loads against are significantly more that what> is
required in a turn from a straight line due to the momentum which has to be>
overcome. The helm is turned and the air compresses against the heavily
loaded> rudder just to stop the turn in progress. As the turn stops the load
is> reduced the air expands, the rudder moves even further. As the turn is now
in> process the momentum is established and the load on the rudder is further>
decreased. Again the air expands and the rudder moves even farther causing
the> boat to turn too far. Finally big counter rudder is applied to stop the>
excessive turn and then the process repeats itself over and over.> > Before
you condemn your boat to the world I suggest you carefully go through> the
process of bleeding the steering system and I'm certain that if your boat> is
indeed steering badly with fins locked and centered - air is the problem> and
you will see a remarkable improvement.> > Best Regards,> > Jim Leishman> >
-----Original Message-----> From:
passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com>
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of>
Scott Bulger> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 4:14 PM> To: Passagemaking Under
Power List> Subject: Re: [PUP] Emergency tiller> > on the Trac units I run
them either Active or Off. If Off they are> also pinned in place, they do not
move. The boat, with the fins off> and pinned wanders all over the sea like a
sailor on shore leave in> the Roja district.> > What more can I say?> > Scott>
On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Ron Rogers rcrogers6@kennett.net
wrote:> > Let me be more clear. On my ancient Naiads there be "Off" and
"Centered"> and> > "On." "Centered" on my boat means that the system is on and
hydraulic> > pressure is holding the fins rigid - locked. This can also be
done with the> > pins provided. Mine can move around when the system is
"Off."> >> > I noticed the difference both when heading into 5 and 6 foot seas
and when> > docking, My boat handles better when docking (astern) if the
Naiads (Model> > 252) are "Centered."> >> > Ron> >> > ----- Original Message
-----> > From: "Scott E. Bulger" scottebulger@gmail.com> > To:
"'Passagemaking Under Power List'"> >
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 15,
2008 4:35 PM> > Subject: Re: [PUP] Emergency tiller> >> >> > | As I said:> >
|> > |> > | "it does it with our without the fins active."> > |> > | Wanders
like the eyes of a teenage boy at the prom...> > |> > | Scott> > |> > |> > |
-----Original Message-----> > | From:
passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com> > |
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of> > |
Ron Rogers> > | Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 1:11 PM> > | To: Passagemaking
Under Power List> > | Subject: Re: [PUP] Emergency tiller> > |> > | Before
excusing the stabilizer fins, try going straight with the fins> > |
"centered." I'll bet she stays on course.> > |> > | Ron Rogers> >
_______________________________________________> >
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power> >> > To
unsubscribe send email to> >
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word> >
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.> >> >
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,>
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.>
_______________________________________________>
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power> > To
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Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
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Well, I don't recall anyone else mentioning this possibility so it's a good
thing to try. As I recall, this a two person job with one person manning a
bleed valve in the lazzarette and another following a strict procedure
moving the wheel in different directions while adding oil on the flybridge
if you have one.
It was nice of Jim to respond and one can understand his having taken
umbrage at extrapolating from one boat and one cruise to a class of boats.
In fairness, most of us did not embrace that concept.
Ron Rogers
1985 Willard 40FBS
AIRBORNE
Lying Washington, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Leishman" jim@nordhavn.com
| Dear Scott:
|
| I understand that you believe the boat is steering badly with the fins
| centered and locked and if your observation is correct then I suggest that
you
| have air in your steering system. Your boat is equipped with Hynautic
| equipment and the bleeding process is relatively easy but you must do it
| exactly as stated by Hynautic within their operators manual.
Air in the lines doesn't usually make a boat wonder. If the rudder is amidship
you would think the boat would maintain a straight line, for awhile at least,
in calm conditions, with no steering input. I will agree that overcompensation
AND air can make the situation worse, but then I don't think Scott is a novice
at getting a boat across the water so I assume he can steer. Some boats, mine
included, just do this. This reminds me of an old fable "but, the king is not
wearing clothes".> From: rcrogers6@kennett.net> To:
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:16:15
-0400> Subject: Re: [PUP] Emergency tiller> > Well, I don't recall anyone else
mentioning this possibility so it's a good > thing to try. As I recall, this a
two person job with one person manning a > bleed valve in the lazzarette and
another following a strict procedure > moving the wheel in different
directions while adding oil on the flybridge > if you have one.> > It was nice
of Jim to respond and one can understand his having taken > umbrage at
extrapolating from one boat and one cruise to a class of boats. > In fairness,
most of us did not embrace that concept.> > Ron Rogers> 1985 Willard 40FBS>
AIRBORNE> Lying Washington, NC> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim
Leishman" jim@nordhavn.com> > > | Dear Scott:> |> | I understand that you
believe the boat is steering badly with the fins> | centered and locked and if
your observation is correct then I suggest that > you> | have air in your
steering system. Your boat is equipped with Hynautic> | equipment and the
bleeding process is relatively easy but you must do it> | exactly as stated by
Hynautic within their operators manual. >
_______________________________________________>
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power> > To
unsubscribe send email to> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com
with the word> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the
message.> > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.>
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
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This reminds me of an old
fable "but, the king is not
wearing clothes
I'm sorry, but this simply isn't fair. Jim Leishman's
comments are fair and deserve a try (BTW, Hynautic's
systems require pressurization) - certainly more
helpful than punditry. Yea, he has an interest in
selling boats, but he, like many principals in PAE,
have more miles under their keel than any of us can
fathom. Nordhavn may have been PAE's first foray into
power boats, but not their first into passage makers:
they cut their teeth on the prestigious Mason line of
sailboats, sailing offshore when many of us (myself
included) were still dreaming of our first pair of
topsiders.
I used to do a fair amount of work with PAE, a part of
my past which I'm very proud. They're not perfect, but
their heart's in the right place.
My opinion only.
Peter
Willard 36 Sedan
San Francisco
Scott,
The only time I got pissed at my Willard was when the tillerarm was loose
owing to a progressing crack in the bronze. When you're in the lazarette,
you should check all linkages and insure that everything is intact and
lined-up properly.
Ron Rogers
As Peter says, the Hynautic reservoir needs to stay pressurized. I
assume air can get into the system if it isn't pressurized properly.
Some of the air fill valves on the reservoir leak, so this needs to be
checked frequently. Hynautic says to keep pressurized to 30 pounds...
but I'm not sure what pressure drop will lead to problems. I have to
pump mine back up at least once a month to keep it near 30.
That said, my N55 tracks pretty well in calm water (I've got a 50 foot
waterline), but otherwise I have the same basic hull shape as your
boat, Scott. However, quartering, following seas will induce a fair
bit of yaw as the wave lifts one corner first and then runs diagonally
under the boat. A properly tuned autopilot will handle it, but its not
fun to hand steer with the seas at that angle.
A narrow, canoe-shaped stern might help with that, but you'd lose a
heck of a lot of storage and cockpit space.
John Marshall
Serendipity - N55-20
On Mar 18, 2008, at 9:38 PM, Peter Pisciotta wrote:
This reminds me of an old
fable "but, the king is not
wearing clothes
I'm sorry, but this simply isn't fair. Jim Leishman's
comments are fair and deserve a try (BTW, Hynautic's
systems require pressurization) - certainly more
helpful than punditry. Yea, he has an interest in
selling boats, but he, like many principals in PAE,
have more miles under their keel than any of us can
fathom. Nordhavn may have been PAE's first foray into
power boats, but not their first into passage makers:
they cut their teeth on the prestigious Mason line of
sailboats, sailing offshore when many of us (myself
included) were still dreaming of our first pair of
topsiders.
I used to do a fair amount of work with PAE, a part of
my past which I'm very proud. They're not perfect, but
their heart's in the right place.
My opinion only.
Peter
Willard 36 Sedan
San Francisco
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