Re: [Esug-list] Few thoughts about Google Summer of Code
On 10/29/2010 12:48 PM, Geert Claes wrote:
It sure cares! If the VCS doesn't allow easy integration of code
with other kinds of assets (pictures, CSS, schemas expressed as
DDL, etc.) and with other people on the team who work on those
assets, developers are going to complain.
VCS and source code organization is something that has now become
standard across all mainstream languages (i.e. Java and C# :->). Your
source code should be saved in class files, in a directory structure
that mirrors the package/namespace structure. Other assets are stored
and versioned in a similar way. You can use any VCSs with any
programming language; indeed, you may be more attached to a VCS than a
language. You will use one VCS for a project, but you may use multiple
languages.
Similar things can be said for IDEs and VMs: you probably pick one and
stick to it, although you use multiple languages.
People choose a programming environment based on (most important first):
- what everybody else is using
- what seems familiar to them
- what is cool
- what is good
Based on that, it's obvious Smalltalk is not going to succeed in a big
way in the foreseeable future. What we need to look at are what areas we
lose out on in 2), and could be changed to fit what everybody else is
doing, without losing much in 4).
To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be doable in
Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based
development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing
debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based
development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk on
another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and focus
on the low-hanging fruit.
Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files,
interface with standard VCS, and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE?
And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there?
Steve
On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:
To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be doable in
Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based
development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing
debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based
development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk on
another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and focus
on the low-hanging fruit.
Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files,
interface with standard VCS
GNU Smalltalk has code in class files, but this ability is (for now)
hampered when you launch the IDE. However, we do have easy to implement
ideas on how to allow filing out packages from the IDE (basically
borrowing the "package is category" ideas of Monticello). Adding VCS
hooks should not be hard.
Smalltalk/X had CVS integration too, no idea if it has been updated to
something more modern.
and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE?
And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there?
GNU Smalltalk's GUI is not yet 100% usable, though it's getting there.
It has inspectors, debuggers, browsers, SUnit. It needs a bit of polishing.
Paolo
On Fri, 2010-10-29 at 13:48 +0200, Paolo Bonzini wrote:
On 10/29/2010 01:36 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:
To my mind, source code in class files and normal VCS would be
doable in
Smalltalk, without losing anything major. In contrast, image-based
development is a major factor in our competitive advantage, allowing
debugging, experimentation etc. It's hard to imagine image-based
development with Eclipse or VisualStudio, and implementing Smalltalk
on
another existing VM is currently too hard, so I'll skip those and
focus
on the low-hanging fruit.
Which Smalltalks (+/- add-on projects) have code in class files,
interface with standard VCS
GNU Smalltalk has code in class files, but this ability is (for now)
hampered when you launch the IDE. However, we do have easy to
implement
ideas on how to allow filing out packages from the IDE (basically
borrowing the "package is category" ideas of Monticello). Adding VCS
hooks should not be hard.
Smalltalk/X had CVS integration too, no idea if it has been updated
to
something more modern.
Smalltalk/X supports CVS and SubVersion.
and yet still have an image-based, GUI IDE?
Smalltalk/X for instance :-)
Jan
And for those that don't, how hard would it be to get there?
GNU Smalltalk's GUI is not yet 100% usable, though it's getting
there.
It has inspectors, debuggers, browsers, SUnit. It needs a bit of
polishing.
Paolo
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On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Steven Kelly stevek@metacase.com wrote:
People choose a programming environment based on (most important first):
- what everybody else is using
- what seems familiar to them
- what is cool
- what is good
IMHO there is one criteria that comes in front of those. First
environment needs to be able to produce cool results. If environment
can do some others can not, people will be using it even if it
requires use of line editor. So being able to produce cool aps is our
priority zero.
Davorin Rusevljan
http://www.cloud208.com/