Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
Hi all,
With all the recent talk of clocks etc in spacecraft I though you guys
might like this...
http://www.csiro.au/en/Portals/Media/Pulsars-make-a-GPS-for-the-cosmos.aspx
regards
Tim
--
VK2XAX :: QF56if23 :: BMARC :: WIA
I remember when pulsars were first discovered one speculation was that they
were interstellar navigation beacons established by intelligent life forms.
Regards.
Max. K 4 O DS.
Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com
Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Woodworking site
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to.
funwithtransistors-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to
funwithwood-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim" timt@skybase.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 7:38 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
Hi all,
With all the recent talk of clocks etc in spacecraft I though you guys
might like this...
http://www.csiro.au/en/Portals/Media/Pulsars-make-a-GPS-for-the-cosmos.aspx
regards
Tim
--
VK2XAX :: QF56if23 :: BMARC :: WIA
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Some of them might be....... you could certainly speculate that any culture that has attained sufficient technology to make interstellar travel possible (and need navigation beacons) would probably have sufficient power to 'engineer' the occasional neutron star into the correct configuration.
Of course, if 'your' local star happens to be the one they need.......... you just have to hope they are not Vogons :-)
regards,
Paul g8gja
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Max Robinson
Sent: 26 September 2013 08:23
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
I remember when pulsars were first discovered one speculation was that they
were interstellar navigation beacons established by intelligent life forms.
Regards.
Max. K 4 O DS.
Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com
Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Woodworking site
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to.
funwithtransistors-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to
funwithwood-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim" timt@skybase.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 7:38 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
Hi all,
With all the recent talk of clocks etc in spacecraft I though you guys
might like this...
http://www.csiro.au/en/Portals/Media/Pulsars-make-a-GPS-for-the-cosmos.aspx
regards
Tim
--
VK2XAX :: QF56if23 :: BMARC :: WIA
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
If there is Alien life on this planet they are most assuredly Time-Nuts.
Thomas Knox
From: Paul.Reeves@uk.thalesgroup.com
To: maX@maxsmusicplace.com; time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 08:59:17 +0100
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
Some of them might be....... you could certainly speculate that any culture that has attained sufficient technology to make interstellar travel possible (and need navigation beacons) would probably have sufficient power to 'engineer' the occasional neutron star into the correct configuration.
Of course, if 'your' local star happens to be the one they need.......... you just have to hope they are not Vogons :-)
regards,
Paul g8gja
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Max Robinson
Sent: 26 September 2013 08:23
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
I remember when pulsars were first discovered one speculation was that they
were interstellar navigation beacons established by intelligent life forms.
Regards.
Max. K 4 O DS.
Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com
Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Woodworking site
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to.
funwithtransistors-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to
funwithwood-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim" timt@skybase.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 7:38 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
Hi all,
With all the recent talk of clocks etc in spacecraft I though you guys
might like this...
http://www.csiro.au/en/Portals/Media/Pulsars-make-a-GPS-for-the-cosmos.aspx
regards
Tim
--
VK2XAX :: QF56if23 :: BMARC :: WIA
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 3:59 PM, REEVES Paul <Paul.Reeves@uk.thalesgroup.com
wrote:
Some of them might be....... you could certainly speculate that any
culture that has attained sufficient technology to make interstellar travel
possible (and need navigation beacons) would probably have sufficient power
to 'engineer' the occasional neutron star into the correct configuration.
Question: So Pulsars would be covered by the ITU-R "Dissemination by Radio"
rules? How would you encode leap-seconds :-)
--
Sanjeev Gupta
+65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane
It seems you would need to think of the Pulsar as the clock behind the GPS sat. You then have an algorithm to add the other need information at the rec end. To make things easier add to the constellation one master clock signal with corrections and other needed info from earth.
Thomas Knox
From: ghane0@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2013 16:48:14 +0800
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 3:59 PM, REEVES Paul <Paul.Reeves@uk.thalesgroup.com
wrote:
Some of them might be....... you could certainly speculate that any
culture that has attained sufficient technology to make interstellar travel
possible (and need navigation beacons) would probably have sufficient power
to 'engineer' the occasional neutron star into the correct configuration.
Question: So Pulsars would be covered by the ITU-R "Dissemination by Radio"
rules? How would you encode leap-seconds :-)
--
Sanjeev Gupta
+65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 09/26/2013 08:25 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
It seems you would need to think of the Pulsar as the clock behind the GPS sat. You then have an algorithm to add the other need information at the rec end. To make things easier add to the constellation one master clock signal with corrections and other needed info from earth.
With enough of them, you can compare their beatings against your local
clock and use that to count backwards in order to establish the TAI
relationship of your clock in rate and phase, if only reference phase
and frequency observations where made and listed. You would not get
leap-seconds and UTC, because that needs the earth spin observations,
but you can get a fair TAI if you work the numbers.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 9/28/13 4:14 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
On 09/26/2013 08:25 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
It seems you would need to think of the Pulsar as the clock behind the GPS sat. You then have an algorithm to add the other need information at the rec end. To make things easier add to the constellation one master clock signal with corrections and other needed info from earth.
With enough of them, you can compare their beatings against your local
clock and use that to count backwards in order to establish the TAI
relationship of your clock in rate and phase, if only reference phase
and frequency observations where made and listed. You would not get
leap-seconds and UTC, because that needs the earth spin observations,
but you can get a fair TAI if you work the numbers.
Don't forget the Doppler and relativistic effects of the earth moving
around the solar system barycenter. But that's not much different than
you do for GPS (e.g. knowing satellite orbits, etc.)
On 09/28/2013 01:42 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
On 9/28/13 4:14 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
On 09/26/2013 08:25 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
It seems you would need to think of the Pulsar as the clock behind
the GPS sat. You then have an algorithm to add the other need
information at the rec end. To make things easier add to the
constellation one master clock signal with corrections and other
needed info from earth.
With enough of them, you can compare their beatings against your local
clock and use that to count backwards in order to establish the TAI
relationship of your clock in rate and phase, if only reference phase
and frequency observations where made and listed. You would not get
leap-seconds and UTC, because that needs the earth spin observations,
but you can get a fair TAI if you work the numbers.
Don't forget the Doppler and relativistic effects of the earth moving
around the solar system barycenter. But that's not much different
than you do for GPS (e.g. knowing satellite orbits, etc.)
Naturally. You also needs to compensate for their decay-rate as you try
to span longer periods.
You can use them for navigation and time, just like GPS. Even seen a
presentation on that.
Cheers,
Magnus
Don't forget the Doppler and relativistic effects of the earth moving
around the solar system barycenter. But that's not much different
than you do for GPS (e.g. knowing satellite orbits, etc.)
Naturally. You also needs to compensate for their decay-rate as you try
to span longer periods.
You can use them for navigation and time, just like GPS. Even seen a
presentation on that.
The big hiccup is that you need a fairly good sized antenna to detect
the pulsars. They're "bright" in the sense of radio astronomy, but
remember that those folks think in terms of 1000 ft apertures at Arecibo
and huge arrays like the VLA or ATA.
http://www.radio-astronomy.org/pdf/pulsars.pdf
http://www.k5so.com/Radio_astronomy_pulsars.html - an 8.6 meter dish
with a UHF feed. He's using a Rb, by the way
http://www.moetronix.com/pulsar/index.htm They used a 26 meter antenna.
Scrolling down, it looks like they're getting a whopping 0.5 dB SNR on
the Crab Nebula pulsar.
So, pulsar nav seems a bit impractical for present day space vehicles.
NCC-1701 Enterprise might be big enough to carry a suitable phased array.
On 09/28/2013 02:15 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
Don't forget the Doppler and relativistic effects of the earth moving
around the solar system barycenter. But that's not much different
than you do for GPS (e.g. knowing satellite orbits, etc.)
Naturally. You also needs to compensate for their decay-rate as you try
to span longer periods.
You can use them for navigation and time, just like GPS. Even seen a
presentation on that.
The big hiccup is that you need a fairly good sized antenna to detect
the pulsars. They're "bright" in the sense of radio astronomy, but
remember that those folks think in terms of 1000 ft apertures at
Arecibo and huge arrays like the VLA or ATA.
http://www.radio-astronomy.org/pdf/pulsars.pdf
http://www.k5so.com/Radio_astronomy_pulsars.html - an 8.6 meter dish
with a UHF feed. He's using a Rb, by the way
http://www.moetronix.com/pulsar/index.htm They used a 26 meter
antenna. Scrolling down, it looks like they're getting a whopping 0.5
dB SNR on the Crab Nebula pulsar.
So, pulsar nav seems a bit impractical for present day space vehicles.
NCC-1701 Enterprise might be big enough to carry a suitable phased array.
On a space-craft it becomes easier to handle thermal noises thought.
Cheers,
Magnus
Le 28 sept. 2013 à 14:26, Magnus Danielson a écrit :
On 09/28/2013 02:15 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
Don't forget the Doppler and relativistic effects of the earth moving
around the solar system barycenter. But that's not much different
than you do for GPS (e.g. knowing satellite orbits, etc.)
Naturally. You also needs to compensate for their decay-rate as you try
to span longer periods.
You can use them for navigation and time, just like GPS. Even seen a
presentation on that.
The big hiccup is that you need a fairly good sized antenna to detect
the pulsars. They're "bright" in the sense of radio astronomy, but
remember that those folks think in terms of 1000 ft apertures at
Arecibo and huge arrays like the VLA or ATA.
http://www.radio-astronomy.org/pdf/pulsars.pdf
http://www.k5so.com/Radio_astronomy_pulsars.html - an 8.6 meter dish
with a UHF feed. He's using a Rb, by the way
http://www.moetronix.com/pulsar/index.htm They used a 26 meter
antenna. Scrolling down, it looks like they're getting a whopping 0.5
dB SNR on the Crab Nebula pulsar.
So, pulsar nav seems a bit impractical for present day space vehicles.
NCC-1701 Enterprise might be big enough to carry a suitable phased array.
I think the radio elescope(s) needed are much smaller. There are apparently 2 pulsar clocks installed here in europe, one in St Catherine's church Gdansk and the other in the European Parliament, Brussels. The Wiki article states "The pulsar clock consists of a radiotelescope with 16 antennas, which receive signals from six designated pulsars. Digital processing of the pulsar signals is done by an FPGA device" . I have tried to find more details without success, but the antennas must be reasonable sized to be installed in such places. I think the OP link indicates that X-ray wavelengths would be used which bring down the detector size. No use on earth though.
On a space-craft it becomes easier to handle thermal noises thought.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 9/29/13 3:42 AM, mc235960 wrote:
Le 28 sept. 2013 à 14:26, Magnus Danielson a écrit :
I think the radio elescope(s) needed are much smaller. There are apparently 2 pulsar clocks installed here in europe, one in St Catherine's church Gdansk and the other in the European Parliament, Brussels. The Wiki article states "The pulsar clock consists of a radiotelescope with 16 antennas, which receive signals from six designated pulsars. Digital processing of the pulsar signals is done by an FPGA device" . I have tried to find more details without success, but the antennas must be reasonable sized to be installed in such places. I think the OP link indicates that X-ray wavelengths would be used which bring down the detector size. No use on earth though.
It would be interesting to find out more info.
Xrays are nice (see X-NAV), but so far, nobody has built a small,
lightweight X-ray detector of sufficient efficiency. You don't want to
have multiple detectors the size of Chandra, XMM, or Nustar
On 09/29/2013 03:11 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
On 9/29/13 3:42 AM, mc235960 wrote:
Le 28 sept. 2013 à 14:26, Magnus Danielson a écrit :
I think the radio elescope(s) needed are much smaller. There are
apparently 2 pulsar clocks installed here in europe, one in St
Catherine's church Gdansk and the other in the European Parliament,
Brussels. The Wiki article states "The pulsar clock consists of a
radiotelescope with 16 antennas, which receive signals from six
designated pulsars. Digital processing of the pulsar signals is done
by an FPGA device" . I have tried to find more details without
success, but the antennas must be reasonable sized to be installed in
such places. I think the OP link indicates that X-ray wavelengths
would be used which bring down the detector size. No use on earth
though.
It would be interesting to find out more info.
Xrays are nice (see X-NAV), but so far, nobody has built a small,
lightweight X-ray detector of sufficient efficiency. You don't want
to have multiple detectors the size of Chandra, XMM, or Nustar
They will be great devised to show where the money went. :)
Cheers,
Magnus
Actually Dr Kent Irwin at NIST has developed very small and extremely sensitive detectors using SQUIDs.
Not exactly a project that can be duplicated at home though. There are a number of articles about his work on line.
Thomas Knox
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2013 06:11:38 -0700
From: jimlux@earthlink.net
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
On 9/29/13 3:42 AM, mc235960 wrote:
Le 28 sept. 2013 à 14:26, Magnus Danielson a écrit :
I think the radio elescope(s) needed are much smaller. There are apparently 2 pulsar clocks installed here in europe, one in St Catherine's church Gdansk and the other in the European Parliament, Brussels. The Wiki article states "The pulsar clock consists of a radiotelescope with 16 antennas, which receive signals from six designated pulsars. Digital processing of the pulsar signals is done by an FPGA device" . I have tried to find more details without success, but the antennas must be reasonable sized to be installed in such places. I think the OP link indicates that X-ray wavelengths would be used which bring down the detector size. No use on earth though.
It would be interesting to find out more info.
Xrays are nice (see X-NAV), but so far, nobody has built a small,
lightweight X-ray detector of sufficient efficiency. You don't want to
have multiple detectors the size of Chandra, XMM, or Nustar
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 9/29/13 1:52 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
Actually Dr Kent Irwin at NIST has developed very small and extremely sensitive detectors using SQUIDs.
Not exactly a project that can be duplicated at home though. There are a number of articles about his work on line.
depends on who's home... Don't you have a dewar of Liquid He standing by?
No I don't have room since I set up my dilution refrigerator for Football season.
Thomas Knox
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2013 14:24:12 -0700
From: jimlux@earthlink.net
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
On 9/29/13 1:52 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
Actually Dr Kent Irwin at NIST has developed very small and extremely sensitive detectors using SQUIDs.
Not exactly a project that can be duplicated at home though. There are a number of articles about his work on line.
depends on who's home... Don't you have a dewar of Liquid He standing by?
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi all,
With all the recent talk of clocks etc in spacecraft I though you guys
might like this...
http://www.csiro.au/en/Portals/Media/Pulsars-make-a-GPS-for-the-cosmos.aspx
regards
Tim
---==
.. and some more information from ESA:
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Operations/Highlights/Brightest_beacons
73,
David GM8ARV
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk