PS
paul swed
Wed, Aug 5, 2020 2:00 PM
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
MD
Magnus Danielson
Wed, Aug 5, 2020 2:51 PM
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> run. Nice.
> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
> Enjoy.
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Wed, Aug 5, 2020 5:21 PM
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> > run. Nice.
> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
> > Enjoy.
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
TK
Tom Knox
Wed, Aug 5, 2020 7:40 PM
Hi Paul and Magnus;
Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
Cheers;
Tom Knox
actast@hotmail.com
"Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both MLK and Albert Einstein
From: time-nuts time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com on behalf of paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
Hi Paul and Magnus;
Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
Cheers;
Tom Knox
actast@hotmail.com
"Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both MLK and Albert Einstein
________________________________
From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com> on behalf of paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> > run. Nice.
> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
> > Enjoy.
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
J
jimlux
Wed, Aug 5, 2020 9:30 PM
On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
Hi Paul and Magnus;
Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high -
GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously
high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based
on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites).
In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf
"GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10
Mt) detonations of our trial set."
I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak
and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at
400km cased significant problems.
The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based
assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is
denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) -
conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and
36,000km (GEO)
Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from
whatever the phenomenon is.
I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing
in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it
with GNSS satellites. Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave
broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO
satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km. Inverse square
law really helps.
Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over.
Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the
ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to
compensate.
I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it
as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far.
Cheers;
Tom Knox
actast@hotmail.com
"Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both MLK and Albert Einstein
From: time-nuts time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com on behalf of paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
> Hi Paul and Magnus;
> Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high -
GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously
high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based
on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites).
In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf
"GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10
Mt) detonations of our trial set."
I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak
and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at
400km cased significant problems.
The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based
assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is
denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) -
conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and
36,000km (GEO)
Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from
whatever the phenomenon is.
I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing
in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it
with GNSS satellites. Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave
broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO
satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km. Inverse square
law really helps.
Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over.
Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the
ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to
compensate.
I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it
as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far.
> Cheers;
>
> Tom Knox
>
> actast@hotmail.com
>
> "Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both MLK and Albert Einstein
>
> ________________________________
> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com> on behalf of paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
>
> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
> have heard of in Europe.
> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> Sorry for that editorial.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
>>> run. Nice.
>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
>>> Enjoy.
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
PS
paul swed
Wed, Aug 5, 2020 9:56 PM
Jim
Thanks for the insights. Oh I am not selling it for emp. I am simply saying
no would be general wants a rusty old steel tower as a career booster. I
remember when LORAN C was shut down the president said he was saving $36M a
year. Thats drop in the old bucket. I also remember the LORAN C antennas on
mobile tower sites for timing along with GPS.
Thanks again Jim.
Fire up that LORAN C receiver and see what you can hear.
Regards
Paul
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:41 PM jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
Hi Paul and Magnus;
Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a
ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high -
GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously
high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based
on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites).
In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf
"GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10
Mt) detonations of our trial set."
I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak
and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at
400km cased significant problems.
The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based
assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is
denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) -
conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and
36,000km (GEO)
Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from
whatever the phenomenon is.
I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing
in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it
with GNSS satellites. Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave
broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO
satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km. Inverse square
law really helps.
Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over.
Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the
ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to
compensate.
I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it
as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far.
Cheers;
Tom Knox
actast@hotmail.com
"Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Jim
Thanks for the insights. Oh I am not selling it for emp. I am simply saying
no would be general wants a rusty old steel tower as a career booster. I
remember when LORAN C was shut down the president said he was saving $36M a
year. Thats drop in the old bucket. I also remember the LORAN C antennas on
mobile tower sites for timing along with GPS.
Thanks again Jim.
Fire up that LORAN C receiver and see what you can hear.
Regards
Paul
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:41 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
> > Hi Paul and Magnus;
> > Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a
> ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
>
> The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high -
> GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously
> high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based
> on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites).
>
> In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much.
>
> https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf
>
> "GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10
> Mt) detonations of our trial set."
>
> I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak
> and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at
> 400km cased significant problems.
>
> The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based
> assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is
> denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) -
> conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and
> 36,000km (GEO)
>
> Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from
> whatever the phenomenon is.
>
> I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing
> in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it
> with GNSS satellites. Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave
> broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO
> satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km. Inverse square
> law really helps.
>
>
> Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over.
>
>
> Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the
> ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to
> compensate.
>
>
> I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it
> as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far.
>
>
> > Cheers;
> >
> > Tom Knox
> >
> > actast@hotmail.com
> >
> > "Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both
> MLK and Albert Einstein
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com> on behalf of paul
> swed <paulswedb@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
> >
> > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
> > have heard of in Europe.
> > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> Space
> > Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > Sorry for that editorial.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> air
> >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> have
> >>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> >>> run. Nice.
> >>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> also.
> >>> Enjoy.
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
FC
Forrest Christian (List Account)
Wed, Aug 5, 2020 11:45 PM
We seem to be going through another stage in our technological evolution
right now as far as redundancy goes.
To explain what I mean:
A long time ago things were so unreliable that everyone knew that you
needed two systems, even if one was the watch in your pocket and a compass
and sextant for PNT.
As technological systems got better and better somehow we forgot this
lesson. GPS is so reliable that people don't even think about the
possibility that it might go away, so we got complacent about maintaining
the old systems to maintain a backup. Things like LORAN C were cut for
'cost savings' reasons, since why keep a backup for a system that never
fails? I can't fault the logic, assuming one buys the perfect
reliability premise (no I don't buy this as at all).
Recently it's become obvious there are lots of ways that our technology can
fail. Not just GPS but I could cite other examples not relevant to this
list. So we've now entered the phase where we're trying to figure out
what to do to regain the capabilities we carelessly discarded in the past
based on a false premise of the new stuff being perfectly reliable.
Fortunately for PNT, the US government definitely signaled that the
redundancy must be ground-based when they passed the "National Timing
Resilience and Security Act". So hopefully we don't have to worry about
the second system being space-based. Heck, we already have at least 2
space-based alternatives in orbit.
They were supposed to get this in place within 2 years, which I think means
the end of 2020 if I'm reading the dates right. Since it's already
August, I doubt they'll meet the deadline. Hopefully, with the testing
they're doing, it won't be much longer.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:15 PM paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Jim
Thanks for the insights. Oh I am not selling it for emp. I am simply saying
no would be general wants a rusty old steel tower as a career booster. I
remember when LORAN C was shut down the president said he was saving $36M a
year. Thats drop in the old bucket. I also remember the LORAN C antennas on
mobile tower sites for timing along with GPS.
Thanks again Jim.
Fire up that LORAN C receiver and see what you can hear.
Regards
Paul
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:41 PM jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
Hi Paul and Magnus;
Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a
ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high -
GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously
high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based
on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites).
In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf
"GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10
Mt) detonations of our trial set."
I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak
and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at
400km cased significant problems.
The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based
assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is
denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) -
conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and
36,000km (GEO)
Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from
whatever the phenomenon is.
I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing
in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it
with GNSS satellites. Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave
broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO
satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km. Inverse square
law really helps.
Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over.
Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the
ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to
compensate.
I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it
as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far.
Cheers;
Tom Knox
actast@hotmail.com
"Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice"
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
We seem to be going through another stage in our technological evolution
right now as far as redundancy goes.
To explain what I mean:
A long time ago things were so unreliable that everyone knew that you
needed two systems, even if one was the watch in your pocket and a compass
and sextant for PNT.
As technological systems got better and better somehow we forgot this
lesson. GPS is so reliable that people don't even think about the
possibility that it might go away, so we got complacent about maintaining
the old systems to maintain a backup. Things like LORAN C were cut for
'cost savings' reasons, since why keep a backup for a system that never
fails? I can't fault the logic, assuming one buys the perfect
reliability premise (no I don't buy this as at all).
Recently it's become obvious there are lots of ways that our technology can
fail. Not just GPS but I could cite other examples not relevant to this
list. So we've now entered the phase where we're trying to figure out
what to do to regain the capabilities we carelessly discarded in the past
based on a false premise of the new stuff being perfectly reliable.
Fortunately for PNT, the US government definitely signaled that the
redundancy must be ground-based when they passed the "National Timing
Resilience and Security Act". So hopefully we don't have to worry about
the second system being space-based. Heck, we already have at least 2
space-based alternatives in orbit.
They were supposed to get this in place within 2 years, which I think means
the end of 2020 if I'm reading the dates right. Since it's already
August, I doubt they'll meet the deadline. Hopefully, with the testing
they're doing, it won't be much longer.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:15 PM paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jim
> Thanks for the insights. Oh I am not selling it for emp. I am simply saying
> no would be general wants a rusty old steel tower as a career booster. I
> remember when LORAN C was shut down the president said he was saving $36M a
> year. Thats drop in the old bucket. I also remember the LORAN C antennas on
> mobile tower sites for timing along with GPS.
> Thanks again Jim.
> Fire up that LORAN C receiver and see what you can hear.
> Regards
> Paul
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:41 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
> > > Hi Paul and Magnus;
> > > Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a
> > ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
> >
> > The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high -
> > GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously
> > high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based
> > on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites).
> >
> > In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much.
> >
> > https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf
> >
> > "GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10
> > Mt) detonations of our trial set."
> >
> > I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak
> > and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at
> > 400km cased significant problems.
> >
> > The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based
> > assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is
> > denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) -
> > conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and
> > 36,000km (GEO)
> >
> > Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from
> > whatever the phenomenon is.
> >
> > I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing
> > in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it
> > with GNSS satellites. Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave
> > broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO
> > satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km. Inverse square
> > law really helps.
> >
> >
> > Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over.
> >
> >
> > Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the
> > ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to
> > compensate.
> >
> >
> > I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it
> > as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far.
> >
> >
> > > Cheers;
> > >
> > > Tom Knox
> > >
> > > actast@hotmail.com
> > >
> > > "Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice"
> Both
> > MLK and Albert Einstein
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com> on behalf of paul
> > swed <paulswedb@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
> > > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> > time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
> > >
> > > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> > > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> > > have heard of in Europe.
> > > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> > Space
> > > Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> > > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> > > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > > Sorry for that editorial.
> > > Regards
> > > Paul
> > > WB8TSL
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Magnus
> > >>
> > >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > >>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> > air
> > >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> > have
> > >>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > >>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> > >>> run. Nice.
> > >>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> > also.
> > >>> Enjoy.
> > >>> Paul
> > >>> WB8TSL
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >>> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
--
- Forrest
MD
Magnus Danielson
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 5:35 AM
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
> have heard of in Europe.
> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> Sorry for that editorial.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
>>> run. Nice.
>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
>>> Enjoy.
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 1:12 PM
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> to date with the progress.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
> > have heard of in Europe.
> > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> Space
> > Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > Sorry for that editorial.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> air
> >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> have
> >>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> >>> run. Nice.
> >>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> also.
> >>> Enjoy.
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
TK
Taka Kamiya
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 4:17 PM
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations. What's the other?
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations. What's the other?
---------------------------------------
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> to date with the progress.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
> > have heard of in Europe.
> > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> Space
> > Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > Sorry for that editorial.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> air
> >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> have
> >>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> >>> run. Nice.
> >>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> also.
> >>> Enjoy.
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 8:22 PM
Iridium but not available for general use.
But there are actually more proposals then GPS and Iridium.
Some might call it Piles-of-satellites. LEO stuff. $$$
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:48 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency
solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations.
What's the other?
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
wrote:
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Iridium but not available for general use.
But there are actually more proposals then GPS and Iridium.
Some might call it Piles-of-satellites. LEO stuff. $$$
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:48 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency
> solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations.
> What's the other?
>
> ---------------------------------------
> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>
>
> On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Magnus
> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> and some other LEO satellites.
> But thats about it.
> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> turns a LED on if the stations active.
> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> > as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> > to date with the progress.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> >
> > On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> > > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> > > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> > > have heard of in Europe.
> > > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> > Space
> > > Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> > > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> > > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > > Sorry for that editorial.
> > > Regards
> > > Paul
> > > WB8TSL
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Magnus
> > >>
> > >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > >>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> > air
> > >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> > have
> > >>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > >>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> > >>> run. Nice.
> > >>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> > also.
> > >>> Enjoy.
> > >>> Paul
> > >>> WB8TSL
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >>> and follow the instructions there.
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
BK
Bob kb8tq
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 8:25 PM
On Aug 6, 2020, at 12:17 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations. What's the other?
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
The Russians put up the Gloanss system many years ago. It took a while to get all
the kinks out of it. It has been running pretty well for over a decade:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS>
The European Union is in the process of fleshing out the Galileo system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)>
The Chinese have their BeiDou system still in the “getting going” phase (with some
level of functionality being delivered for a number of years):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeiDou <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeiDou>
All are aimed at being world wide / stand alone “competitors” to GPS. All deliver
timing along with navigation.
Bob
> On Aug 6, 2020, at 12:17 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations. What's the other?
>
> ---------------------------------------
> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>
>
> On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Magnus
> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> and some other LEO satellites.
> But thats about it.
> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> turns a LED on if the stations active.
> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> wrote:
>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
>> to date with the progress.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
>>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
>>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
>>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
>>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
>>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
>>> have heard of in Europe.
>>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
>>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
>>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
>>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
>> Space
>>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
>>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
>>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
>>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
>>> Sorry for that editorial.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Magnus
>>>>
>>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
>>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
>>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
>> air
>>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
>> have
>>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
>>>>> run. Nice.
>>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
>> also.
>>>>> Enjoy.
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
J
jimlux
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 8:40 PM
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
> ---------------------------------------
> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>
>
> On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Magnus
> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> and some other LEO satellites.
> But thats about it.
> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> turns a LED on if the stations active.
> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> wrote:
>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
>> to date with the progress.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
>>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
>>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
>>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
>>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
>>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
>>> have heard of in Europe.
>>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
>>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
>>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
>>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
>> Space
>>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
>>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
>>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
>>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
>>> Sorry for that editorial.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Magnus
>>>>
>>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
>>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
>>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
>> air
>>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
>> have
>>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
>>>>> run. Nice.
>>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
>> also.
>>>>> Enjoy.
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
PS
paul swed
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 8:47 PM
Both China and India also have Geostationary satellites for Navigation.
It compliments their MEO satellites.
Regards
Paul.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 4:43 PM jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Both China and India also have Geostationary satellites for Navigation.
It compliments their MEO satellites.
Regards
Paul.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 4:43 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> > Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> constellations. What's the other?
>
> Transit?
>
> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>
>
> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
> are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>
> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Magnus
> > Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> Europe
> > seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> > performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> more
> > satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> > and some other LEO satellites.
> > But thats about it.
> > What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> > turns a LED on if the stations active.
> > Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> >> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> >> to date with the progress.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> >>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> >>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> >>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> >> Space
> >>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> >>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> >>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Magnus
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> >> air
> >>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> >> have
> >>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> >>>>> run. Nice.
> >>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >> also.
> >>>>> Enjoy.
> >>>>> Paul
> >>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
BK
Bob kb8tq
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 9:07 PM
On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do "common view" kinds of time transfer.
Another couple of “up in the air” question:
Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or three different bands. Does each
band count as a separate time source?
If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a time source all by it’s self. Do they
each count?
I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
Bob
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
> On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
>> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations. What's the other?
>
> Transit?
>
> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>
>
> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>
> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do "common view" kinds of time transfer.
Another couple of “up in the air” question:
Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or three different bands. Does each
band count as a separate time source?
If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a time source all by it’s self. Do they
each count?
I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
Bob
>
>
>
>
>> ---------------------------------------
>> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
>> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>> On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Magnus
>> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
>> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
>> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
>> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
>> and some other LEO satellites.
>> But thats about it.
>> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
>> turns a LED on if the stations active.
>> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> wrote:
>>> Hi Paul,
>>>
>>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
>>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
>>> to date with the progress.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Magnus
>>>
>>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
>>>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
>>>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
>>>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
>>>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
>>>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
>>>> have heard of in Europe.
>>>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
>>>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
>>>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
>>>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
>>> Space
>>>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
>>>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
>>>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
>>>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
>>>> Sorry for that editorial.
>>>> Regards
>>>> Paul
>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Magnus
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
>>>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
>>>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
>>> air
>>>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
>>> have
>>>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>>>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
>>>>>> run. Nice.
>>>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
>>> also.
>>>>>> Enjoy.
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
BN
Bill Notfaded
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 9:22 PM
Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.
Bill
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.
Bill
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> > Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> constellations. What's the other?
>
> Transit?
>
> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>
>
> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
> are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>
> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Magnus
> > Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> Europe
> > seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> > performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> more
> > satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> > and some other LEO satellites.
> > But thats about it.
> > What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> > turns a LED on if the stations active.
> > Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> >> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> >> to date with the progress.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> >>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> >>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> >>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> >> Space
> >>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> >>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> >>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Magnus
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> >> air
> >>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> >> have
> >>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> >>>>> run. Nice.
> >>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >> also.
> >>>>> Enjoy.
> >>>>> Paul
> >>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
SQ
shouldbe q931
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 9:46 PM
Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.
Bill
Unless I have misunderstood, CDMA on an Endrun would be a cellular
receiver, not satellite...
Cheers
Arne
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:40 PM Bill Notfaded <notfaded1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
> that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
> need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
> couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
> and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
> satellites.
>
> Bill
Unless I have misunderstood, CDMA on an Endrun would be a cellular
receiver, not satellite...
Cheers
Arne
TK
Taka Kamiya
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 9:59 PM
I think CDMA in this case is part of a cellular phone network, not a satellite system.....
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 5:40:49 PM EDT, Bill Notfaded <notfaded1@gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.
Bill
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
I think CDMA in this case is part of a cellular phone network, not a satellite system.....
---------------------------------------
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 5:40:49 PM EDT, Bill Notfaded <notfaded1@gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.
Bill
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> > Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> constellations. What's the other?
>
> Transit?
>
> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>
>
> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
> are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>
> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Magnus
> > Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> Europe
> > seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> > performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> more
> > satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> > and some other LEO satellites.
> > But thats about it.
> > What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> > turns a LED on if the stations active.
> > Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> >> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> >> to date with the progress.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> >>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> >>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> >>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> >> Space
> >>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> >>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> >>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Magnus
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> >> air
> >>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> >> have
> >>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> >>>>> run. Nice.
> >>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >> also.
> >>>>> Enjoy.
> >>>>> Paul
> >>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 10:24 PM
Transit has been off the air some 20+ years. It really was one of the
beginnings of satellite navigation.
Regards Paul
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 5:40 PM Bill Notfaded notfaded1@gmail.com wrote:
Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.
Bill
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Transit has been off the air some 20+ years. It really was one of the
beginnings of satellite navigation.
Regards Paul
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 5:40 PM Bill Notfaded <notfaded1@gmail.com> wrote:
> Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
> that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
> need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
> couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
> and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
> satellites.
>
> Bill
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> > > Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> > frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> > constellations. What's the other?
> >
> > Transit?
> >
> > I don't believe they are still operational, though.
> >
> >
> > I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> > commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
> > are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> > uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial
> broadcast.
> >
> > One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> > location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> > "common view" kinds of time transfer.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------
> > > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> > paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Magnus
> > > Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> > Europe
> > > seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> > > performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> > more
> > > satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the
> tests
> > > and some other LEO satellites.
> > > But thats about it.
> > > What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> > > turns a LED on if the stations active.
> > > Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> > > Regards
> > > Paul
> > > WB8TSL
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Paul,
> > >>
> > >> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> > >> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
> up
> > >> to date with the progress.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Magnus
> > >>
> > >> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> > >>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > >>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > >>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > >>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
> communicate
> > >>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
> proposals
> > I
> > >>> have heard of in Europe.
> > >>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > >>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > >>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > >>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> > >> Space
> > >>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > >>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year
> to
> > >>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
> mind
> > >>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > >>> Sorry for that editorial.
> > >>> Regards
> > >>> Paul
> > >>> WB8TSL
> > >>>
> > >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hi,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
> sites?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>> Magnus
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > >>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > >>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on
> the
> > >> air
> > >>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> > >> have
> > >>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > >>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> > long
> > >>>>> run. Nice.
> > >>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> > >> also.
> > >>>>> Enjoy.
> > >>>>> Paul
> > >>>>> WB8TSL
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >>> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
J
jimlux
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 10:42 PM
On 8/6/20 2:22 PM, Bill Notfaded wrote:
Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.
Bill
A CDMA satellite? Iridium Next might be CDMA.. I've seen rooftop
receivers for CDMA cellphone signals but they're terrestrial.
On 8/6/20 2:22 PM, Bill Notfaded wrote:
> Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
> that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
> need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
> couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
> and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
> satellites.
>
> Bill
A CDMA satellite? Iridium Next might be CDMA.. I've seen rooftop
receivers for CDMA cellphone signals but they're terrestrial.
FC
Forrest Christian (List Account)
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 11:28 PM
If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
failure modes:
-
Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have more
satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
-
Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
multiple GNSS constellations.
-
Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band from
GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite dish
and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative to
GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm more
thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
But, a good quality terrestrial option would be useful too.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:40 PM Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite are
typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the uplinks
may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
Another couple of “up in the air” question:
Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or three
different bands. Does each
band count as a separate time source?
If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a time
source all by it’s self. Do they
each count?
I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
Bob
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
failure modes:
1) Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have more
satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
multiple GNSS constellations.
3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band from
GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite dish
and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative to
GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm more
thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
But, a good quality terrestrial option would be useful too.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:40 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote:
> Hi
>
> > On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> >> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> constellations. What's the other?
> >
> > Transit?
> >
> > I don't believe they are still operational, though.
> >
> >
> > I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite are
> typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the uplinks
> may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
> >
> > One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
> Another couple of “up in the air” question:
>
> Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or three
> different bands. Does each
> band count as a separate time source?
>
> If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a time
> source all by it’s self. Do they
> each count?
>
> I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
>
> Bob
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> ---------------------------------------
> >> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> >> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >> On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Magnus
> >> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> Europe
> >> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> >> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> more
> >> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> >> and some other LEO satellites.
> >> But thats about it.
> >> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> >> turns a LED on if the stations active.
> >> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> wrote:
> >>> Hi Paul,
> >>>
> >>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> >>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
> up
> >>> to date with the progress.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Magnus
> >>>
> >>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> >>>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
> communicate
> >>>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
> proposals I
> >>>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> >>> Space
> >>>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> >>>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
> mind
> >>>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Paul
> >>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
> sites?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>> Magnus
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> >>> air
> >>>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> >>> have
> >>>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> >>>>>> run. Nice.
> >>>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >>> also.
> >>>>>> Enjoy.
> >>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
--
- Forrest
BK
Bob kb8tq
Thu, Aug 6, 2020 11:37 PM
Hi
The problem with CDMA timing is that not all network operators sync their
systems to GPS in all areas. That results in some really strange timing issue
when using one of the CDMA based devices. More or less, Symmetericom
got a lot of devices into the field before they found that out …..
Bob
On Aug 6, 2020, at 5:22 PM, Bill Notfaded notfaded1@gmail.com wrote:
Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.
Bill
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
The problem with CDMA timing is that not all network operators sync their
systems to GPS in all areas. That results in some really strange timing issue
when using one of the CDMA based devices. More or less, Symmetericom
got a *lot* of devices into the field before they found that out …..
Bob
> On Aug 6, 2020, at 5:22 PM, Bill Notfaded <notfaded1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Isn't there also CDMA? We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
> that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
> need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna. This was handy for rooms that
> couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all. It was a good reference
> and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
> satellites.
>
> Bill
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
>>> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
>> frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
>> constellations. What's the other?
>>
>> Transit?
>>
>> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>>
>>
>> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
>> commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
>> are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
>> uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>>
>> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
>> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
>> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------
>>> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
>>> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
>> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Magnus
>>> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
>> Europe
>>> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
>>> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
>> more
>>> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
>>> and some other LEO satellites.
>>> But thats about it.
>>> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
>>> turns a LED on if the stations active.
>>> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>
>>>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
>>>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
>>>> to date with the progress.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Magnus
>>>>
>>>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
>>>>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
>>>>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
>>>>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
>>>>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
>>>>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
>> I
>>>>> have heard of in Europe.
>>>>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
>>>>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
>>>>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
>>>>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
>>>> Space
>>>>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
>>>>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
>>>>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
>>>>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
>>>>> Sorry for that editorial.
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Magnus
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
>>>>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
>>>> air
>>>>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
>>>> have
>>>>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>>>>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
>> long
>>>>>>> run. Nice.
>>>>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
>>>> also.
>>>>>>> Enjoy.
>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
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J
jimlux
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 12:12 AM
On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
failure modes:
-
Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have more
satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
-
Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
multiple GNSS constellations.
-
Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band from
GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite dish
and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative to
GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm more
thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
need ground monitoring and updating.
One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
uplink, and there you go.
My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
service. Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
That 600k would probably buy you one space qualified Rb oscillator of
"good enough" performance, maybe. USOs like used on GRAIL were
$1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
around $10M. Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half that.
All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
Look up CHOMPTT - CSAC and optical links.
https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407&context=smallsat
On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
> If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
> failure modes:
>
> 1) Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have more
> satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
>
> 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
> software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
> multiple GNSS constellations.
>
> 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
> need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
>
> For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
> to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band from
> GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite dish
> and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative to
> GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm more
> thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
>
Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
need ground monitoring and updating.
One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
uplink, and there you go.
My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
service. Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
That 600k would probably buy you *one* space qualified Rb oscillator of
"good enough" performance, maybe. USOs like used on GRAIL were
$1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
around $10M. Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half that.
All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
Look up CHOMPTT - CSAC and optical links.
https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407&context=smallsat
TS
Tim Shoppa
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 12:17 AM
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Transit 5B-5 (from 1965) is nuclear powered and still transmitting. Nobody
has any idea how to pull out the time code, though!
https://twitter.com/coastal8049/status/1260802699051692033
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 4:43 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> > Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> constellations. What's the other?
>
> Transit?
>
> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>
>
> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
> are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>
> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Magnus
> > Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> Europe
> > seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> > performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> more
> > satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> > and some other LEO satellites.
> > But thats about it.
> > What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> > turns a LED on if the stations active.
> > Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> >> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> >> to date with the progress.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> >>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> >>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> >>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> >> Space
> >>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> >>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> >>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Magnus
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> >> air
> >>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> >> have
> >>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> >>>>> run. Nice.
> >>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >> also.
> >>>>> Enjoy.
> >>>>> Paul
> >>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
BK
Bob kb8tq
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 1:09 AM
On Aug 6, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) lists@packetflux.com wrote:
If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
failure modes:
-
Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have more
satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
-
Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
multiple GNSS constellations.
-
Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band from
GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite dish
and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative to
GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm more
thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
Right now GNSS systems run in somewhere between 3 and 5 “bands” depending
on how you count them. Various chunks of spectrum between 1 and 2 GHz get
used by this or that system.
Bob
But, a good quality terrestrial option would be useful too.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:40 PM Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite are
typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the uplinks
may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
Another couple of “up in the air” question:
Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or three
different bands. Does each
band count as a separate time source?
If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a time
source all by it’s self. Do they
each count?
I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
Bob
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
> On Aug 6, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <lists@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
> If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
> failure modes:
>
> 1) Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have more
> satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
>
> 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
> software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
> multiple GNSS constellations.
>
> 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
> need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
>
> For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
> to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band from
> GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite dish
> and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative to
> GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm more
> thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
Right now GNSS systems run in somewhere between 3 and 5 “bands” depending
on how you count them. Various chunks of spectrum between 1 and 2 GHz get
used by this or that system.
Bob
>
> But, a good quality terrestrial option would be useful too.
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:40 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>>> On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
>>>> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
>> frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
>> constellations. What's the other?
>>>
>>> Transit?
>>>
>>> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
>> commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite are
>> typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the uplinks
>> may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>>>
>>> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
>> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
>> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>>
>> Another couple of “up in the air” question:
>>
>> Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or three
>> different bands. Does each
>> band count as a separate time source?
>>
>> If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a time
>> source all by it’s self. Do they
>> each count?
>>
>> I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
>>>> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>>>> On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
>> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Magnus
>>>> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
>> Europe
>>>> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
>>>> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
>> more
>>>> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
>>>> and some other LEO satellites.
>>>> But thats about it.
>>>> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
>>>> turns a LED on if the stations active.
>>>> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
>>>> Regards
>>>> Paul
>>>> WB8TSL
>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
>>>>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
>> up
>>>>> to date with the progress.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Magnus
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
>>>>>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
>>>>>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
>>>>>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
>> communicate
>>>>>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
>> proposals I
>>>>>> have heard of in Europe.
>>>>>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
>>>>>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
>>>>>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
>>>>>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
>>>>> Space
>>>>>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
>>>>>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
>>>>>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
>> mind
>>>>>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
>>>>>> Sorry for that editorial.
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
>> sites?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Magnus
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
>>>>>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
>>>>> air
>>>>>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>>>>>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
>> long
>>>>>>>> run. Nice.
>>>>>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
>>>>> also.
>>>>>>>> Enjoy.
>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
> --
> - Forrest
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
FC
Forrest Christian (List Account)
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 1:38 AM
I probably need to clarify where I'm coming from in relation to my previous
message.
I have a fair bit of background in dealing with using GPS clock sources for
synchronization at communication sites. Many of these sites are lucky to
have a rubidium oscillator in place for holdover, although some do (usually
the larger ones). And we're talking about thousands and thousands and
thousands of these sites.
Where I was coming from is that at these sites, GPS can be a challenge -
it's in a narrow band, very low signal, and, at least from my worldview, it
seems like GPS interference is becoming more prevalent instead of less.
As a result, whether terrestrial or via satellite, it would be nice to
have a second alternative in a different band where one could obtain a
reasonably aligned 1PPS (+-1uSish).
I'm hopeful that eLORAN will result in this result. I'm also curious
about the GPS L5 signal once it becomes operational since that is far
enough away frequency wise that one would hope that it wouldn't be affected
by the same interference source.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 6:19 PM jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
failure modes:
- Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have
satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
-
Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
multiple GNSS constellations.
-
Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
need ground monitoring and updating.
One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
uplink, and there you go.
My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
service. Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
That 600k would probably buy you one space qualified Rb oscillator of
"good enough" performance, maybe. USOs like used on GRAIL were
$1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
around $10M. Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half that.
All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
Look up CHOMPTT - CSAC and optical links.
https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407&context=smallsat
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
I probably need to clarify where I'm coming from in relation to my previous
message.
I have a fair bit of background in dealing with using GPS clock sources for
synchronization at communication sites. Many of these sites are lucky to
have a rubidium oscillator in place for holdover, although some do (usually
the larger ones). And we're talking about thousands and thousands and
thousands of these sites.
Where I was coming from is that at these sites, GPS can be a challenge -
it's in a narrow band, very low signal, and, at least from my worldview, it
seems like GPS interference is becoming more prevalent instead of less.
As a result, whether terrestrial or via satellite, it would be nice to
have a second alternative in a different band where one could obtain a
reasonably aligned 1PPS (+-1uSish).
I'm hopeful that eLORAN will result in this result. I'm also curious
about the GPS L5 signal once it becomes operational since that is far
enough away frequency wise that one would hope that it wouldn't be affected
by the same interference source.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 6:19 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
> > If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
> > failure modes:
> >
> > 1) Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have
> more
> > satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
> >
> > 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
> > software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
> > multiple GNSS constellations.
> >
> > 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
> > need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
> >
> > For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
> > to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
> from
> > GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
> dish
> > and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
> to
> > GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
> more
> > thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
> >
>
> Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
> need ground monitoring and updating.
>
> One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
> satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
> uplink, and there you go.
>
> My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
> service. Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
>
> That 600k would probably buy you *one* space qualified Rb oscillator of
> "good enough" performance, maybe. USOs like used on GRAIL were
> $1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
> the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
>
> And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
> work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
> around $10M. Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half that.
>
>
> All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
> cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
>
> If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
> have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
> and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
>
> Look up CHOMPTT - CSAC and optical links.
>
>
> https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407&context=smallsat
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
--
- Forrest
BN
Bill Notfaded
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 1:51 AM
The GNSS spectrum poster is good for that it's current. Attached.
Bill
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 6:35 PM Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
On Aug 6, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
failure modes:
- Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have
satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
-
Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
multiple GNSS constellations.
-
Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
Right now GNSS systems run in somewhere between 3 and 5 “bands” depending
on how you count them. Various chunks of spectrum between 1 and 2 GHz get
used by this or that system.
Bob
But, a good quality terrestrial option would be useful too.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:40 PM Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
constellations. What's the other?
Transit?
I don't believe they are still operational, though.
I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
"common view" kinds of time transfer.
Another couple of “up in the air” question:
Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or
different bands. Does each
band count as a separate time source?
If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a
source all by it’s self. Do they
each count?
I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
Bob
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se
Hi Paul,
I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
to date with the progress.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <
Hi,
Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
The GNSS spectrum poster is good for that it's current. Attached.
Bill
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 6:35 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote:
> Hi
>
> > On Aug 6, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> lists@packetflux.com> wrote:
> >
> > If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
> > failure modes:
> >
> > 1) Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have
> more
> > satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
> >
> > 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
> > software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
> > multiple GNSS constellations.
> >
> > 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
> > need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
> >
> > For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
> > to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
> from
> > GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
> dish
> > and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
> to
> > GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
> more
> > thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
>
> Right now GNSS systems run in somewhere between 3 and 5 “bands” depending
> on how you count them. Various chunks of spectrum between 1 and 2 GHz get
> used by this or that system.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> >
> > But, a good quality terrestrial option would be useful too.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:40 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >>> On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> >>>> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> >> frequency solutions" exists already. I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> >> constellations. What's the other?
> >>>
> >>> Transit?
> >>>
> >>> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> >> commercial TV broadcast transponder. The transponders on the satellite
> are
> >> typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> uplinks
> >> may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
> >>>
> >>> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> >> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> >> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
> >>
> >> Another couple of “up in the air” question:
> >>
> >> Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or
> three
> >> different bands. Does each
> >> band count as a separate time source?
> >>
> >> If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a
> time
> >> source all by it’s self. Do they
> >> each count?
> >>
> >> I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> ---------------------------------------
> >>>> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> >>>> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >>>> On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> >> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Magnus
> >>>> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> >> Europe
> >>>> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> >>>> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> >> more
> >>>> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the
> tests
> >>>> and some other LEO satellites.
> >>>> But thats about it.
> >>>> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> >>>> turns a LED on if the stations active.
> >>>> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Paul
> >>>> WB8TSL
> >>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Paul,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on
> time-nuts,
> >>>>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
> >> up
> >>>>> to date with the progress.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>> Magnus
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>>>>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>>>>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of
> an
> >>>>>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
> >> communicate
> >>>>>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
> >> proposals I
> >>>>>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>>>>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>>>>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>>>>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>>>>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force
> or
> >>>>> Space
> >>>>>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>>>>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year
> to
> >>>>>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
> >> mind
> >>>>>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>>>>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <
> magnus@rubidium.se>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
> >> sites?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>> Magnus
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>>>>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on
> the
> >>>>> air
> >>>>>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm
> they
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>>>>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> >> long
> >>>>>>>> run. Nice.
> >>>>>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >>>>> also.
> >>>>>>>> Enjoy.
> >>>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Forrest
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
PS
paul swed
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 1:56 AM
I some tests I was fortunate to be a part of the eLloran system was able to
deliver very accurate time even in buildings. I won't quote numbers as it
was 5 years ago. But suspect the details are online. The extra data channel
allows for the transmission of various corrections.
Regards
Paul
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
lists@packetflux.com> wrote:
I probably need to clarify where I'm coming from in relation to my previous
message.
I have a fair bit of background in dealing with using GPS clock sources for
synchronization at communication sites. Many of these sites are lucky to
have a rubidium oscillator in place for holdover, although some do (usually
the larger ones). And we're talking about thousands and thousands and
thousands of these sites.
Where I was coming from is that at these sites, GPS can be a challenge -
it's in a narrow band, very low signal, and, at least from my worldview, it
seems like GPS interference is becoming more prevalent instead of less.
As a result, whether terrestrial or via satellite, it would be nice to
have a second alternative in a different band where one could obtain a
reasonably aligned 1PPS (+-1uSish).
I'm hopeful that eLORAN will result in this result. I'm also curious
about the GPS L5 signal once it becomes operational since that is far
enough away frequency wise that one would hope that it wouldn't be affected
by the same interference source.
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 6:19 PM jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a
failure modes:
- Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have
satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
- Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you
multiple GNSS constellations.
- Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why
need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a
to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
need ground monitoring and updating.
One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
uplink, and there you go.
My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
service. Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
That 600k would probably buy you one space qualified Rb oscillator of
"good enough" performance, maybe. USOs like used on GRAIL were
$1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
around $10M. Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half
All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
Look up CHOMPTT - CSAC and optical links.
I some tests I was fortunate to be a part of the eLloran system was able to
deliver very accurate time even in buildings. I won't quote numbers as it
was 5 years ago. But suspect the details are online. The extra data channel
allows for the transmission of various corrections.
Regards
Paul
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
lists@packetflux.com> wrote:
> I probably need to clarify where I'm coming from in relation to my previous
> message.
>
> I have a fair bit of background in dealing with using GPS clock sources for
> synchronization at communication sites. Many of these sites are lucky to
> have a rubidium oscillator in place for holdover, although some do (usually
> the larger ones). And we're talking about thousands and thousands and
> thousands of these sites.
>
> Where I was coming from is that at these sites, GPS can be a challenge -
> it's in a narrow band, very low signal, and, at least from my worldview, it
> seems like GPS interference is becoming more prevalent instead of less.
> As a result, whether terrestrial or via satellite, it would be nice to
> have a second alternative in a different band where one could obtain a
> reasonably aligned 1PPS (+-1uSish).
>
> I'm hopeful that eLORAN will result in this result. I'm also curious
> about the GPS L5 signal once it becomes operational since that is far
> enough away frequency wise that one would hope that it wouldn't be affected
> by the same interference source.
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 6:19 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
> > > If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a
> few
> > > failure modes:
> > >
> > > 1) Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have
> > more
> > > satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
> > >
> > > 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
> > > software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you
> have
> > > multiple GNSS constellations.
> > >
> > > 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why
> you
> > > need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
> > >
> > > For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a
> payload
> > > to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
> > from
> > > GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
> > dish
> > > and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
> > to
> > > GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
> > more
> > > thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
> > >
> >
> > Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
> > need ground monitoring and updating.
> >
> > One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
> > satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
> > uplink, and there you go.
> >
> > My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
> > service. Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
> >
> > That 600k would probably buy you *one* space qualified Rb oscillator of
> > "good enough" performance, maybe. USOs like used on GRAIL were
> > $1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
> > the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
> >
> > And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
> > work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
> > around $10M. Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half
> that.
> >
> >
> > All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
> > cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
> >
> > If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
> > have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
> > and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
> >
> > Look up CHOMPTT - CSAC and optical links.
> >
> >
> >
> https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407&context=smallsat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> --
> - Forrest
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
HB
Hugh Blemings
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 4:05 AM
Hi,
Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and wonder
(truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of receiving
any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
Cheers,
Hugh
Hi,
Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and wonder
(truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of receiving
any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
Cheers,
Hugh
PK
Poul-Henning Kamp
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 5:16 AM
Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and wonder
(truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of receiving
any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe they're still up.
(Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
--------
Hugh Blemings writes:
> Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and wonder
> (truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
>
> My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of receiving
> any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
> Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe they're still up.
(Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
B
Björn
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 9:08 AM
Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia to the far side of Australia.
/Björn
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp phk@phk.freebsd.dk wrote:
--------
Hugh Blemings writes:
Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and wonder
(truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of receiving
any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia to the far side of Australia.
/Björn
Sent from my iPhone
> On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
> --------
> Hugh Blemings writes:
>
>> Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and wonder
>> (truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
>>
>> My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of receiving
>> any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
>> Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
>
> You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe they're still up.
>
> (Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
BK
Bob kb8tq
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 12:18 PM
On Aug 6, 2020, at 9:38 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) lists@packetflux.com wrote:
I probably need to clarify where I'm coming from in relation to my previous
message.
I have a fair bit of background in dealing with using GPS clock sources for
synchronization at communication sites. Many of these sites are lucky to
have a rubidium oscillator in place for holdover, although some do (usually
the larger ones). And we're talking about thousands and thousands and
thousands of these sites.
Where I was coming from is that at these sites, GPS can be a challenge -
it's in a narrow band, very low signal, and, at least from my worldview, it
seems like GPS interference is becoming more prevalent instead of less.
As a result, whether terrestrial or via satellite, it would be nice to
have a second alternative in a different band where one could obtain a
reasonably aligned 1PPS (+-1uSish).
I'm hopeful that eLORAN will result in this result. I'm also curious
about the GPS L5 signal once it becomes operational since that is far
enough away frequency wise that one would hope that it wouldn't be affected
by the same interference source.
The problem is that you have a moving target. As system speeds have gone up,
so have timing requirements. 10 us used to be the “drop dead” number for a
cell system. Now it’s more likely to be 1 us (or less …). At 1 us, you need a
timing reference that is sub-100 ns, pretty much all the time. Getting that from a
single terrestrial broadcast source is unlikely.
The “simple" answer is the one already being used. Send the timing over fiber.
Yes, there are problems with various implementations. They can be worked
out a lot easier than putting up a broadcast (and reception) system from
scratch.
Bob
On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
failure modes:
- Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have
satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
-
Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
multiple GNSS constellations.
-
Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
need ground monitoring and updating.
One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
uplink, and there you go.
My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
service. Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
That 600k would probably buy you one space qualified Rb oscillator of
"good enough" performance, maybe. USOs like used on GRAIL were
$1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
around $10M. Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half that.
All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
Look up CHOMPTT - CSAC and optical links.
https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407&context=smallsat
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
> On Aug 6, 2020, at 9:38 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <lists@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
> I probably need to clarify where I'm coming from in relation to my previous
> message.
>
> I have a fair bit of background in dealing with using GPS clock sources for
> synchronization at communication sites. Many of these sites are lucky to
> have a rubidium oscillator in place for holdover, although some do (usually
> the larger ones). And we're talking about thousands and thousands and
> thousands of these sites.
>
> Where I was coming from is that at these sites, GPS can be a challenge -
> it's in a narrow band, very low signal, and, at least from my worldview, it
> seems like GPS interference is becoming more prevalent instead of less.
> As a result, whether terrestrial or via satellite, it would be nice to
> have a second alternative in a different band where one could obtain a
> reasonably aligned 1PPS (+-1uSish).
>
> I'm hopeful that eLORAN will result in this result. I'm also curious
> about the GPS L5 signal once it becomes operational since that is far
> enough away frequency wise that one would hope that it wouldn't be affected
> by the same interference source.
The problem is that you have a moving target. As system speeds have gone up,
so have timing requirements. 10 us used to be the “drop dead” number for a
cell system. Now it’s more likely to be 1 us (or less …). At 1 us, you need a
timing reference that is sub-100 ns, pretty much all the time. Getting that from a
single terrestrial broadcast source is unlikely.
The “simple" answer is the one already being used. Send the timing over fiber.
Yes, there are problems with various implementations. They can be worked
out a *lot* easier than putting up a broadcast (and reception) system from
scratch.
Bob
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 6:19 PM jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
>>> If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
>>> failure modes:
>>>
>>> 1) Loss of a satellite (or two). This is why the constellations have
>> more
>>> satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
>>>
>>> 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
>>> software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure. This is why you have
>>> multiple GNSS constellations.
>>>
>>> 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc. This is why you
>>> need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
>>>
>>> For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
>>> to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
>> from
>>> GNSS. It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
>> dish
>>> and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
>> to
>>> GNSS. I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
>> more
>>> thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
>>>
>>
>> Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
>> need ground monitoring and updating.
>>
>> One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
>> satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
>> uplink, and there you go.
>>
>> My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
>> service. Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
>>
>> That 600k would probably buy you *one* space qualified Rb oscillator of
>> "good enough" performance, maybe. USOs like used on GRAIL were
>> $1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
>> the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
>>
>> And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
>> work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
>> around $10M. Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half that.
>>
>>
>> All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
>> cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
>>
>> If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
>> have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
>> and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
>>
>> Look up CHOMPTT - CSAC and optical links.
>>
>>
>> https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407&context=smallsat
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
> --
> - Forrest
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 12:59 PM
I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
mention of it.
With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles. It
would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn bg@lysator.liu.se wrote:
Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia to
the far side of Australia.
/Björn
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp phk@phk.freebsd.dk wrote:
--------
Hugh Blemings writes:
Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
(truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
(Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
and follow the instructions there.
I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
mention of it.
With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles. It
would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn <bg@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
> Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
> transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia to
> the far side of Australia.
>
> /Björn
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> >
> > --------
> > Hugh Blemings writes:
> >
> >> Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
> wonder
> >> (truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
> >>
> >> My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
> receiving
> >> any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
> >> Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
> >
> > You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
> they're still up.
> >
> > (Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
> >
> > --
> > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
TK
Taka Kamiya
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 3:32 PM
Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't constant in dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we pursue?
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Friday, August 7, 2020, 9:14:23 AM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
mention of it.
With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles. It
would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn bg@lysator.liu.se wrote:
Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia to
the far side of Australia.
/Björn
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp phk@phk.freebsd.dk wrote:
--------
Hugh Blemings writes:
Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
(truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
(Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
and follow the instructions there.
Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't constant in dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we pursue?
---------------------------------------
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Friday, August 7, 2020, 9:14:23 AM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
mention of it.
With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles. It
would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn <bg@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
> Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
> transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia to
> the far side of Australia.
>
> /Björn
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> >
> > --------
> > Hugh Blemings writes:
> >
> >> Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
> wonder
> >> (truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
> >>
> >> My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
> receiving
> >> any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
> >> Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
> >
> > You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
> they're still up.
> >
> > (Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
> >
> > --
> > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
BK
Bob kb8tq
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 6:16 PM
Hi
The idea is that over a limited coverage area, you can supply “correction” info to reduce the impact
of propagation. GPS (and other GNSS systems) do this sort of thing already. Just as with GNSS, the
corrections will (likely) only get you just so far.
Bob
On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:32 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't constant in dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we pursue?
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Friday, August 7, 2020, 9:14:23 AM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
mention of it.
With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles. It
would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn bg@lysator.liu.se wrote:
Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia to
the far side of Australia.
/Björn
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp phk@phk.freebsd.dk wrote:
--------
Hugh Blemings writes:
Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
(truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
(Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
The idea is that over a limited coverage area, you can supply “correction” info to reduce the impact
of propagation. GPS (and other GNSS systems) do this sort of thing already. Just as with GNSS, the
corrections will (likely) only get you just so far.
Bob
> On Aug 7, 2020, at 11:32 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't constant in dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we pursue?
>
> ---------------------------------------
> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>
>
> On Friday, August 7, 2020, 9:14:23 AM EDT, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
> mention of it.
> With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
> European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles. It
> would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn <bg@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
>
>> Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
>> transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia to
>> the far side of Australia.
>>
>> /Björn
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Hugh Blemings writes:
>>>
>>>> Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
>> wonder
>>>> (truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
>>>>
>>>> My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
>> receiving
>>>> any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
>>>> Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
>>>
>>> You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
>> they're still up.
>>>
>>> (Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>>> phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>>> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
>> incompetence.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 6:18 PM
Taka
Yes it does. More ionosphere than air. It would be skywave or indirect
path. I mentioned that earlier.
Now silly thought would a huge antenna work especially if you are at the
antipode. Further would it be gray line propagation.
Thats just silly talk. But something to think about.
Regards
Paul.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:01 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The
signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't constant in
dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we
pursue?
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Friday, August 7, 2020, 9:14:23 AM EDT, paul swed <
paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
mention of it.
With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles. It
would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn bg@lysator.liu.se wrote:
Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia
the far side of Australia.
/Björn
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp phk@phk.freebsd.dk wrote:
--------
Hugh Blemings writes:
Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
(truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
(Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
and follow the instructions there.
Taka
Yes it does. More ionosphere than air. It would be skywave or indirect
path. I mentioned that earlier.
Now silly thought would a huge antenna work especially if you are at the
antipode. Further would it be gray line propagation.
Thats just silly talk. But something to think about.
Regards
Paul.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:01 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The
> signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't constant in
> dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we
> pursue?
>
> ---------------------------------------
> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>
>
> On Friday, August 7, 2020, 9:14:23 AM EDT, paul swed <
> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
> mention of it.
> With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
> European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles. It
> would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn <bg@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
>
> > Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
> > transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia
> to
> > the far side of Australia.
> >
> > /Björn
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> > >
> > > --------
> > > Hugh Blemings writes:
> > >
> > >> Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
> > wonder
> > >> (truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
> > >>
> > >> My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
> > receiving
> > >> any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
> > >> Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
> > >
> > > You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
> > they're still up.
> > >
> > > (Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> > incompetence.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
GC
Gilles Clement
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 10:16 PM
Would’nt 100khz carrier propagate mostly by ground wave (during day time) ? So following earth curvature ?
Gilles.
Le 7 août 2020 à 21:34, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com a écrit :
Taka
Yes it does. More ionosphere than air. It would be skywave or indirect
path. I mentioned that earlier.
Now silly thought would a huge antenna work especially if you are at the
antipode. Further would it be gray line propagation.
Thats just silly talk. But something to think about.
Regards
Paul.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:01 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The
signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't constant in
dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we
pursue?
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Friday, August 7, 2020, 9:14:23 AM EDT, paul swed <
paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
mention of it.
With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles. It
would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn bg@lysator.liu.se wrote:
Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia
the far side of Australia.
/Björn
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp phk@phk.freebsd.dk wrote:
--------
Hugh Blemings writes:
Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
(truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
(Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
and follow the instructions there.
Would’nt 100khz carrier propagate mostly by ground wave (during day time) ? So following earth curvature ?
Gilles.
> Le 7 août 2020 à 21:34, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
> Taka
> Yes it does. More ionosphere than air. It would be skywave or indirect
> path. I mentioned that earlier.
> Now silly thought would a huge antenna work especially if you are at the
> antipode. Further would it be gray line propagation.
> Thats just silly talk. But something to think about.
> Regards
> Paul.
>
>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:01 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
>> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The
>> signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't constant in
>> dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we
>> pursue?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------
>> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
>> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>>
>>
>> On Friday, August 7, 2020, 9:14:23 AM EDT, paul swed <
>> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
>> mention of it.
>> With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
>> European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles. It
>> would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn <bg@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
>>>
>>> Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
>>> transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east Asia
>> to
>>> the far side of Australia.
>>>
>>> /Björn
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Hugh Blemings writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
>>> wonder
>>>>> (truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
>>>>>
>>>>> My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
>>> receiving
>>>>> any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
>>>>> Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
>>>>
>>>> You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
>>> they're still up.
>>>>
>>>> (Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>>>> phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>>>> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>>>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
>>> incompetence.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
PK
Poul-Henning Kamp
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 10:35 PM
Would’nt 100khz carrier propagate mostly by ground wave (during day time) ? So following earth curvature ?
First: It's not really a 100kHz carrier, it is a 85-115kHz spread-spectrum signal.
Second: Yes, and that is exactly the point.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
--------
Gilles Clement writes:
> Would’nt 100khz carrier propagate mostly by ground wave (during day time) ? So following earth curvature ?
First: It's not really a 100kHz carrier, it is a 85-115kHz spread-spectrum signal.
Second: Yes, and that is exactly the point.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
PS
paul swed
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 11:07 PM
Exactly and at night you have groundwave and skywave. In reality both exist
all of the time its just the strength changes. This is why LORAN C radios
have ability to reduce the effects of skywave. It has to do with the
structure of teh transmitted signal.
Paul
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:25 PM Gilles Clement clemgill@gmail.com wrote:
Would’nt 100khz carrier propagate mostly by ground wave (during day time)
? So following earth curvature ?
Gilles.
Le 7 août 2020 à 21:34, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com a écrit :
Taka
Yes it does. More ionosphere than air. It would be skywave or indirect
path. I mentioned that earlier.
Now silly thought would a huge antenna work especially if you are at the
antipode. Further would it be gray line propagation.
Thats just silly talk. But something to think about.
Regards
Paul.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:01 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The
signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't
dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we
pursue?
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Friday, August 7, 2020, 9:14:23 AM EDT, paul swed <
paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
mention of it.
With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles.
would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn bg@lysator.liu.se wrote:
Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east
the far side of Australia.
/Björn
Sent from my iPhone
--------
Hugh Blemings writes:
Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
(truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
(Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
and follow the instructions there.
and follow the instructions there.
Exactly and at night you have groundwave and skywave. In reality both exist
all of the time its just the strength changes. This is why LORAN C radios
have ability to reduce the effects of skywave. It has to do with the
structure of teh transmitted signal.
Paul
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:25 PM Gilles Clement <clemgill@gmail.com> wrote:
> Would’nt 100khz carrier propagate mostly by ground wave (during day time)
> ? So following earth curvature ?
> Gilles.
>
>
> > Le 7 août 2020 à 21:34, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> a écrit :
> >
> > Taka
> > Yes it does. More ionosphere than air. It would be skywave or indirect
> > path. I mentioned that earlier.
> > Now silly thought would a huge antenna work especially if you are at the
> > antipode. Further would it be gray line propagation.
> > Thats just silly talk. But something to think about.
> > Regards
> > Paul.
> >
> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:01 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
> >> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The
> >> signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't
> constant in
> >> dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we
> >> pursue?
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------
> >> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> >> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >>
> >>
> >> On Friday, August 7, 2020, 9:14:23 AM EDT, paul swed <
> >> paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I believe South Korea is indeed building new eLORAN chains. I have seen
> >> mention of it.
> >> With respect to distance In the US I could occasionally receive the
> >> European West chain at night and in the winter. Thats about 3200 miles.
> It
> >> would also be by skywave so that deteriorates accuracy.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:26 AM Björn <bg@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Are not South Korea are building one? new eLoran chain? Are they
> >>> transmitting? But don’t underestimate the distances from south east
> Asia
> >> to
> >>> the far side of Australia.
> >>>
> >>> /Björn
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>>> On 7 Aug 2020, at 10:24, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> --------
> >>>> Hugh Blemings writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Been following this thread with the usual mixture of joy, awe and
> >>> wonder
> >>>>> (truly!) - fantastic stuff :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My read of the situation is that there is next to no chance of
> >>> receiving
> >>>>> any meaningful signal at the VLF frequencies in question down here in
> >>>>> Melbourne - a great circle path of some 10,000 mi / 16000 km ?
> >>>>
> >>>> You might be able to pick out the Chinese Loran chains, I believe
> >>> they're still up.
> >>>>
> >>>> (Use sdr.dh web-sdr's to find out ?)
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> >>>> phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> >>>> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> >>>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> >>> incompetence.
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
BB
Bill Byrom
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 11:13 PM
See this 1961 IRE paper at the NIST website:
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2303.pdf
IRE merged with AIEE in 1963 to form IEEE.
Figure 7 shows the calculated amplitude transfer of the ground wave signal vs frequency and distance. Note that for 100 kHz signals, the ground wave signal is reasonably strong at 2,000 miles but lousy at 5,000 miles.
As this paper notes, the sky wave reflections are delayed, and this delay depends on the ionization state of the ionosphere along the propagation path. This delay is shown in figure 2.
Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
Bill Byrom N5BB
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, at 5:16 PM, Gilles Clement wrote:
Would’nt 100khz carrier propagate mostly by ground wave (during day time) ? So following earth curvature ?
Gilles.
Le 7 août 2020 à 21:34, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com a écrit :
Taka
Yes it does. More ionosphere than air. It would be skywave or indirect
path. I mentioned that earlier.
Now silly thought would a huge antenna work especially if you are at the
antipode. Further would it be gray line propagation.
Thats just silly talk. But something to think about.
Regards
Paul.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:01 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The
signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't constant in
dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we
pursue?
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
See this 1961 IRE paper at the NIST website:
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2303.pdf
IRE merged with AIEE in 1963 to form IEEE.
Figure 7 shows the calculated amplitude transfer of the ground wave signal vs frequency and distance. Note that for 100 kHz signals, the ground wave signal is reasonably strong at 2,000 miles but lousy at 5,000 miles.
As this paper notes, the sky wave reflections are delayed, and this delay depends on the ionization state of the ionosphere along the propagation path. This delay is shown in figure 2.
Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
--
Bill Byrom N5BB
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, at 5:16 PM, Gilles Clement wrote:
> Would’nt 100khz carrier propagate mostly by ground wave (during day time) ? So following earth curvature ?
> Gilles.
>
>
> > Le 7 août 2020 à 21:34, paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> a écrit :
> >
> > Taka
> > Yes it does. More ionosphere than air. It would be skywave or indirect
> > path. I mentioned that earlier.
> > Now silly thought would a huge antenna work especially if you are at the
> > antipode. Further would it be gray line propagation.
> > Thats just silly talk. But something to think about.
> > Regards
> > Paul.
> >
> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:01 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
> >> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Wouldn't such a long distance propagation result in less precision? The
> >> signal will have to go through distance through air which isn't constant in
> >> dialectic values. Wouldn't it be problematic for level of accuracy we
> >> pursue?
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------
> >> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> >> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
J
jimlux
Fri, Aug 7, 2020 11:33 PM
On 8/7/20 4:13 PM, Bill Byrom wrote:
See this 1961 IRE paper at the NIST website:
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2303.pdf
IRE merged with AIEE in 1963 to form IEEE.
Figure 7 shows the calculated amplitude transfer of the ground wave signal vs frequency and distance. Note that for 100 kHz signals, the ground wave signal is reasonably strong at 2,000 miles but lousy at 5,000 miles.
As this paper notes, the sky wave reflections are delayed, and this delay depends on the ionization state of the ionosphere along the propagation path. This delay is shown in figure 2.
Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
Bill Byrom N5BB
and such stuff is why Omega worked at VLF frequencies - none of that
pesky skywave - lambda=30km and you're ALWAYS below ionospheric cutoff.
Alas, they made some boneheaded mistakes like making one of the
frequencies an exact multiple of 60Hz.
There is something positively Tesla-ian about Omega with high power low
frequency transmitters into physically enormous antennas - like the one
with the top hat across the fjord. None of this tiny L-band patch
antenna stuff inside a wristwatch.
On 8/7/20 4:13 PM, Bill Byrom wrote:
> See this 1961 IRE paper at the NIST website:
> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2303.pdf
> IRE merged with AIEE in 1963 to form IEEE.
>
> Figure 7 shows the calculated amplitude transfer of the ground wave signal vs frequency and distance. Note that for 100 kHz signals, the ground wave signal is reasonably strong at 2,000 miles but lousy at 5,000 miles.
>
> As this paper notes, the sky wave reflections are delayed, and this delay depends on the ionization state of the ionosphere along the propagation path. This delay is shown in figure 2.
>
> Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
> --
> Bill Byrom N5BB
>
>
and such stuff is why Omega worked at VLF frequencies - none of that
pesky skywave - lambda=30km and you're ALWAYS below ionospheric cutoff.
Alas, they made some boneheaded mistakes like making one of the
frequencies an exact multiple of 60Hz.
There is something positively Tesla-ian about Omega with high power low
frequency transmitters into physically enormous antennas - like the one
with the top hat across the fjord. None of this tiny L-band patch
antenna stuff inside a wristwatch.
BK
Bob kb8tq
Sat, Aug 8, 2020 12:16 AM
Hi
Back in the day, if you hung out for a while in the lobby at Continental Electronics, you would notice a
model of an old style transmitter over by one wall. Go over and look a it for a a while and all the usual
parts were there. Couple of big tubes, big matching coil insulators here and there. Eventually you would
notice this tiny spec down by the bottom of the model … hmmm … wonder what that is?
Eventually one might figure out that the tiny spec was a person. The model was of an Omega transmitter ….
Bob
See this 1961 IRE paper at the NIST website:
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2303.pdf
IRE merged with AIEE in 1963 to form IEEE.
Figure 7 shows the calculated amplitude transfer of the ground wave signal vs frequency and distance. Note that for 100 kHz signals, the ground wave signal is reasonably strong at 2,000 miles but lousy at 5,000 miles.
As this paper notes, the sky wave reflections are delayed, and this delay depends on the ionization state of the ionosphere along the propagation path. This delay is shown in figure 2.
Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
Bill Byrom N5BB
and such stuff is why Omega worked at VLF frequencies - none of that pesky skywave - lambda=30km and you're ALWAYS below ionospheric cutoff. Alas, they made some boneheaded mistakes like making one of the frequencies an exact multiple of 60Hz.
There is something positively Tesla-ian about Omega with high power low frequency transmitters into physically enormous antennas - like the one with the top hat across the fjord. None of this tiny L-band patch antenna stuff inside a wristwatch.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
Hi
Back in the day, if you hung out for a while in the lobby at Continental Electronics, you would notice a
model of an old style transmitter over by one wall. Go over and look a it for a a while and all the usual
parts were there. Couple of big tubes, big matching coil insulators here and there. Eventually you would
notice this tiny spec down by the bottom of the model … hmmm … wonder what that is?
Eventually one might figure out that the tiny spec was a person. The model was of an Omega transmitter ….
Bob
> On Aug 7, 2020, at 7:33 PM, jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> On 8/7/20 4:13 PM, Bill Byrom wrote:
>> See this 1961 IRE paper at the NIST website:
>> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2303.pdf
>> IRE merged with AIEE in 1963 to form IEEE.
>> Figure 7 shows the calculated amplitude transfer of the ground wave signal vs frequency and distance. Note that for 100 kHz signals, the ground wave signal is reasonably strong at 2,000 miles but lousy at 5,000 miles.
>> As this paper notes, the sky wave reflections are delayed, and this delay depends on the ionization state of the ionosphere along the propagation path. This delay is shown in figure 2.
>> Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
>> --
>> Bill Byrom N5BB
>
> and such stuff is why Omega worked at VLF frequencies - none of that pesky skywave - lambda=30km and you're ALWAYS below ionospheric cutoff. Alas, they made some boneheaded mistakes like making one of the frequencies an exact multiple of 60Hz.
>
> There is something positively Tesla-ian about Omega with high power low frequency transmitters into physically enormous antennas - like the one with the top hat across the fjord. None of this tiny L-band patch antenna stuff inside a wristwatch.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
BB
Bill Byrom
Sat, Aug 8, 2020 2:48 AM
Whit Griffith N5SU was the Chief Radio Scientist (or some similar title) for Continental Electronics in the 1980's in Dallas. In around 1990 Whit gave a slide show presentation to a Dallas Amateur Radio Club meeting at the National Communications Museum, a project at the Dallas Communication Complex in Irving started by Bill Bragg KA5PIP (SK) who became the voice of BIG TEX. Whit showed amazing photos of the VLF transmitter and antenna they had installed in Germany - I believe it was DHO38 at 23.4 kHz. The helix/variometer room was huge, and the antenna used large cables strung between tall towers as a capacitive top hat, and included an impressive ground system.
The radiation resistance of a VLF vertical antenna is very low. At 100 kHz one wavelength is 3 km (9,843 feet). So if an antenna was 412 m tall (1,352 feet), it would only be 0.137 wavelength long. The low radiation resistance of such a short antenna requires a high antenna current. At high power levels (1 MW or even more), the antenna current can be several hundreds of amps, and this can produce very high voltages across reactive components of the antenna system and matching network.
The result is that high power VLF transmitting stations require a lot of land, a very expensive and large antenna and matching system which retunes itself as the weather changes the antenna impedance, expensive provisions for lightning and high wind protection, an expensive transmitter, and a very high cost for the utility power and maintenance.
Bill Byrom N5BB
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
Hi
Back in the day, if you hung out for a while in the lobby at Continental Electronics, you would notice a
model of an old style transmitter over by one wall. Go over and look a it for a a while and all the usual
parts were there. Couple of big tubes, big matching coil insulators here and there. Eventually you would
notice this tiny spec down by the bottom of the model … hmmm … wonder what that is?
Eventually one might figure out that the tiny spec was a person. The model was of an Omega transmitter ….
Bob
See this 1961 IRE paper at the NIST website:
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2303.pdf
IRE merged with AIEE in 1963 to form IEEE.
Figure 7 shows the calculated amplitude transfer of the ground wave signal vs frequency and distance. Note that for 100 kHz signals, the ground wave signal is reasonably strong at 2,000 miles but lousy at 5,000 miles.
As this paper notes, the sky wave reflections are delayed, and this delay depends on the ionization state of the ionosphere along the propagation path. This delay is shown in figure 2.
Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
Bill Byrom N5BB
and such stuff is why Omega worked at VLF frequencies - none of that pesky skywave - lambda=30km and you're ALWAYS below ionospheric cutoff. Alas, they made some boneheaded mistakes like making one of the frequencies an exact multiple of 60Hz.
There is something positively Tesla-ian about Omega with high power low frequency transmitters into physically enormous antennas - like the one with the top hat across the fjord. None of this tiny L-band patch antenna stuff inside a wristwatch.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Whit Griffith N5SU was the Chief Radio Scientist (or some similar title) for Continental Electronics in the 1980's in Dallas. In around 1990 Whit gave a slide show presentation to a Dallas Amateur Radio Club meeting at the National Communications Museum, a project at the Dallas Communication Complex in Irving started by Bill Bragg KA5PIP (SK) who became the voice of BIG TEX. Whit showed amazing photos of the VLF transmitter and antenna they had installed in Germany - I believe it was DHO38 at 23.4 kHz. The helix/variometer room was huge, and the antenna used large cables strung between tall towers as a capacitive top hat, and included an impressive ground system.
The radiation resistance of a VLF vertical antenna is very low. At 100 kHz one wavelength is 3 km (9,843 feet). So if an antenna was 412 m tall (1,352 feet), it would only be 0.137 wavelength long. The low radiation resistance of such a short antenna requires a high antenna current. At high power levels (1 MW or even more), the antenna current can be several hundreds of amps, and this can produce very high voltages across reactive components of the antenna system and matching network.
The result is that high power VLF transmitting stations require a lot of land, a very expensive and large antenna and matching system which retunes itself as the weather changes the antenna impedance, expensive provisions for lightning and high wind protection, an expensive transmitter, and a very high cost for the utility power and maintenance.
--
Bill Byrom N5BB
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
>
> Back in the day, if you hung out for a while in the lobby at Continental Electronics, you would notice a
> model of an old style transmitter over by one wall. Go over and look a it for a a while and all the usual
> parts were there. Couple of big tubes, big matching coil insulators here and there. Eventually you would
> notice this tiny spec down by the bottom of the model … hmmm … wonder what that is?
>
> Eventually one might figure out that the tiny spec was a person. The model was of an Omega transmitter ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Aug 7, 2020, at 7:33 PM, jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > On 8/7/20 4:13 PM, Bill Byrom wrote:
> >> See this 1961 IRE paper at the NIST website:
> >> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2303.pdf
> >> IRE merged with AIEE in 1963 to form IEEE.
> >> Figure 7 shows the calculated amplitude transfer of the ground wave signal vs frequency and distance. Note that for 100 kHz signals, the ground wave signal is reasonably strong at 2,000 miles but lousy at 5,000 miles.
> >> As this paper notes, the sky wave reflections are delayed, and this delay depends on the ionization state of the ionosphere along the propagation path. This delay is shown in figure 2.
> >> Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
> >> --
> >> Bill Byrom N5BB
> >
> > and such stuff is why Omega worked at VLF frequencies - none of that pesky skywave - lambda=30km and you're ALWAYS below ionospheric cutoff. Alas, they made some boneheaded mistakes like making one of the frequencies an exact multiple of 60Hz.
> >
> > There is something positively Tesla-ian about Omega with high power low frequency transmitters into physically enormous antennas - like the one with the top hat across the fjord. None of this tiny L-band patch antenna stuff inside a wristwatch.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
HB
Hugh Blemings
Sat, Aug 8, 2020 4:49 AM
Hiya,
Thank you for all the thoughtful replies on list and a couple received
off list too.
There is at least one VLF station in north western Australia which I
think will be close enough to at least warrant the experiments, so will
get myself set up with a loop antenna and suitable SDR and see what
eventuates!
Thanks all again,
vy 73
Hugh
Hiya,
Thank you for all the thoughtful replies on list and a couple received
off list too.
There is at least one VLF station in north western Australia which I
think will be close enough to at least warrant the experiments, so will
get myself set up with a loop antenna and suitable SDR and see what
eventuates!
Thanks all again,
vy 73
Hugh
PK
Poul-Henning Kamp
Sat, Aug 8, 2020 7:32 AM
Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
This is a time-lapse "gif" of night's worth of Loran-C.
http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/animation2.gif
If you have a minutes worth of patience, you will see the skywave start dancing around after the groundwave.
In this case there were only 200 km between me and the transmitter, so the skywave takes a big detour.
The further out you are from the transmitter, the smaller the difference becomes.
Loran-C's specification calls for timing the 3rd positive zero-crossing, and the published coverage areas are truncated at the distances where the skywave might interfere with the timing.
When you monitor Loran-C outside the "official" coverage area, the skywave can easily swamp the 3rd positive zero crossing.
(The gif above tracks the 3rd negative crossing, because that transmitter is on the "backside" of my loop-antenna.)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
--------
Bill Byrom writes:
> Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
This is a time-lapse "gif" of night's worth of Loran-C.
http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/animation2.gif
If you have a minutes worth of patience, you will see the skywave start dancing around after the groundwave.
In this case there were only 200 km between me and the transmitter, so the skywave takes a big detour.
The further out you are from the transmitter, the smaller the difference becomes.
Loran-C's specification calls for timing the 3rd positive zero-crossing, and the published coverage areas are truncated at the distances where the skywave might interfere with the timing.
When you monitor Loran-C outside the "official" coverage area, the skywave can easily swamp the 3rd positive zero crossing.
(The gif above tracks the 3rd negative crossing, because that transmitter is on the "backside" of my loop-antenna.)
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
BK
Bob kb8tq
Sat, Aug 8, 2020 1:29 PM
On Aug 7, 2020, at 10:48 PM, Bill Byrom time@radio.sent.com wrote:
Whit Griffith N5SU was the Chief Radio Scientist (or some similar title) for Continental Electronics in the 1980's in Dallas. In around 1990 Whit gave a slide show presentation to a Dallas Amateur Radio Club meeting at the National Communications Museum, a project at the Dallas Communication Complex in Irving started by Bill Bragg KA5PIP (SK) who became the voice of BIG TEX. Whit showed amazing photos of the VLF transmitter and antenna they had installed in Germany - I believe it was DHO38 at 23.4 kHz. The helix/variometer room was huge, and the antenna used large cables strung between tall towers as a capacitive top hat, and included an impressive ground system.
The radiation resistance of a VLF vertical antenna is very low. At 100 kHz one wavelength is 3 km (9,843 feet). So if an antenna was 412 m tall (1,352 feet), it would only be 0.137 wavelength long. The low radiation resistance of such a short antenna requires a high antenna current. At high power levels (1 MW or even more), the antenna current can be several hundreds of amps, and this can produce very high voltages across reactive components of the antenna system and matching network.
The result is that high power VLF transmitting stations require a lot of land, a very expensive and large antenna and matching system which retunes itself as the weather changes the antenna impedance, expensive provisions for lightning and high wind protection, an expensive transmitter, and a very high cost for the utility power and maintenance.
Bill Byrom N5BB
One of the WWVB transmitters might fit in a large garage. The antenna matching gear at the base
of one of the antennas …. no way. It’s closer to the size of a small house. Of course as VLF stations
go, WWVB is “low power”.
Same basic issue, lots of weird interactions and a need to keep the signal very precise. Not as easy
as it might seem.
Bob
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
Hi
Back in the day, if you hung out for a while in the lobby at Continental Electronics, you would notice a
model of an old style transmitter over by one wall. Go over and look a it for a a while and all the usual
parts were there. Couple of big tubes, big matching coil insulators here and there. Eventually you would
notice this tiny spec down by the bottom of the model … hmmm … wonder what that is?
Eventually one might figure out that the tiny spec was a person. The model was of an Omega transmitter ….
Bob
See this 1961 IRE paper at the NIST website:
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2303.pdf
IRE merged with AIEE in 1963 to form IEEE.
Figure 7 shows the calculated amplitude transfer of the ground wave signal vs frequency and distance. Note that for 100 kHz signals, the ground wave signal is reasonably strong at 2,000 miles but lousy at 5,000 miles.
As this paper notes, the sky wave reflections are delayed, and this delay depends on the ionization state of the ionosphere along the propagation path. This delay is shown in figure 2.
Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
Bill Byrom N5BB
and such stuff is why Omega worked at VLF frequencies - none of that pesky skywave - lambda=30km and you're ALWAYS below ionospheric cutoff. Alas, they made some boneheaded mistakes like making one of the frequencies an exact multiple of 60Hz.
There is something positively Tesla-ian about Omega with high power low frequency transmitters into physically enormous antennas - like the one with the top hat across the fjord. None of this tiny L-band patch antenna stuff inside a wristwatch.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
> On Aug 7, 2020, at 10:48 PM, Bill Byrom <time@radio.sent.com> wrote:
>
> Whit Griffith N5SU was the Chief Radio Scientist (or some similar title) for Continental Electronics in the 1980's in Dallas. In around 1990 Whit gave a slide show presentation to a Dallas Amateur Radio Club meeting at the National Communications Museum, a project at the Dallas Communication Complex in Irving started by Bill Bragg KA5PIP (SK) who became the voice of BIG TEX. Whit showed amazing photos of the VLF transmitter and antenna they had installed in Germany - I believe it was DHO38 at 23.4 kHz. The helix/variometer room was huge, and the antenna used large cables strung between tall towers as a capacitive top hat, and included an impressive ground system.
>
> The radiation resistance of a VLF vertical antenna is very low. At 100 kHz one wavelength is 3 km (9,843 feet). So if an antenna was 412 m tall (1,352 feet), it would only be 0.137 wavelength long. The low radiation resistance of such a short antenna requires a high antenna current. At high power levels (1 MW or even more), the antenna current can be several hundreds of amps, and this can produce very high voltages across reactive components of the antenna system and matching network.
>
> The result is that high power VLF transmitting stations require a lot of land, a very expensive and large antenna and matching system which retunes itself as the weather changes the antenna impedance, expensive provisions for lightning and high wind protection, an expensive transmitter, and a very high cost for the utility power and maintenance.
> --
> Bill Byrom N5BB
>
>
One of the WWVB transmitters *might* fit in a large garage. The antenna matching gear at the base
of one of the antennas …. no way. It’s closer to the size of a small house. Of course as VLF stations
go, WWVB is “low power”.
Same basic issue, lots of weird interactions and a need to keep the signal very precise. Not as easy
as it might seem.
Bob
>
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> Back in the day, if you hung out for a while in the lobby at Continental Electronics, you would notice a
>> model of an old style transmitter over by one wall. Go over and look a it for a a while and all the usual
>> parts were there. Couple of big tubes, big matching coil insulators here and there. Eventually you would
>> notice this tiny spec down by the bottom of the model … hmmm … wonder what that is?
>>
>> Eventually one might figure out that the tiny spec was a person. The model was of an Omega transmitter ….
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>> On Aug 7, 2020, at 7:33 PM, jimlux <jimlux@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 8/7/20 4:13 PM, Bill Byrom wrote:
>>>> See this 1961 IRE paper at the NIST website:
>>>> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2303.pdf
>>>> IRE merged with AIEE in 1963 to form IEEE.
>>>> Figure 7 shows the calculated amplitude transfer of the ground wave signal vs frequency and distance. Note that for 100 kHz signals, the ground wave signal is reasonably strong at 2,000 miles but lousy at 5,000 miles.
>>>> As this paper notes, the sky wave reflections are delayed, and this delay depends on the ionization state of the ionosphere along the propagation path. This delay is shown in figure 2.
>>>> Figure 6 shows differences between daytime and nighttime propagation of pulsed signals. The received signal is a combination of the ground wave signal and one or more skywave signals (which are delayed with respect to the ground wave signal).
>>>> --
>>>> Bill Byrom N5BB
>>>
>>> and such stuff is why Omega worked at VLF frequencies - none of that pesky skywave - lambda=30km and you're ALWAYS below ionospheric cutoff. Alas, they made some boneheaded mistakes like making one of the frequencies an exact multiple of 60Hz.
>>>
>>> There is something positively Tesla-ian about Omega with high power low frequency transmitters into physically enormous antennas - like the one with the top hat across the fjord. None of this tiny L-band patch antenna stuff inside a wristwatch.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
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> and follow the instructions there.
DG
David G. McGaw
Thu, Aug 13, 2020 6:18 PM
Hi Paul,
Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be? I am not seeing anything
in NH.
Thanks,
David N1HAC
On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
Hi Paul,
Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be? I am not seeing anything
in NH.
Thanks,
David N1HAC
On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> run. Nice.
> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
> Enjoy.
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.febo.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts_lists.febo.com&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cac55ba07ba7e44c56e0408d83949707e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637322334868061249&sdata=ITxnnUFmF7%2F9U2dn25pwR8upRiBuSg6Uzw49CxxZBMQ%3D&reserved=0
> and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Thu, Aug 13, 2020 9:06 PM
Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu
wrote:
Hi Paul,
Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be? I am not seeing anything
in NH.
Thanks,
David N1HAC
On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw <david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu>
wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be? I am not seeing anything
> in NH.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David N1HAC
>
> On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> > run. Nice.
> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
> > Enjoy.
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.febo.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts_lists.febo.com&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cac55ba07ba7e44c56e0408d83949707e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637322334868061249&sdata=ITxnnUFmF7%2F9U2dn25pwR8upRiBuSg6Uzw49CxxZBMQ%3D&reserved=0
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
PS
paul swed
Thu, Aug 13, 2020 9:28 PM
Actually its stranger than that they were down 10db and now are back up to
-71 thats typical here. Its kind of cutting in and out like a bad antenna
connection at 75,000 watts. Yikes.
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:06 PM paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw <
david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Hi Paul,
Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be? I am not seeing anything
in NH.
Thanks,
David N1HAC
On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
Actually its stranger than that they were down 10db and now are back up to
-71 thats typical here. Its kind of cutting in and out like a bad antenna
connection at 75,000 watts. Yikes.
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:06 PM paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw <
> david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be? I am not seeing anything
>> in NH.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> David N1HAC
>>
>> On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
>> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
>> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
>> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
>> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
>> > run. Nice.
>> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
>> > Enjoy.
>> > Paul
>> > WB8TSL
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.febo.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts_lists.febo.com&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cac55ba07ba7e44c56e0408d83949707e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637322334868061249&sdata=ITxnnUFmF7%2F9U2dn25pwR8upRiBuSg6Uzw49CxxZBMQ%3D&reserved=0
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
DW
Dana Whitlow
Thu, Aug 13, 2020 11:48 PM
Sudden changes in amplitude or phase can also be a local phenomenon,
like a loose joint in a rain gutter system for example. One would think
that
such a problem in a high power transmitter installation would be setting
off alarms all over the place and probably automatically tripping the
transmitter off.
Dana
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:59 PM paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Actually its stranger than that they were down 10db and now are back up to
-71 thats typical here. Its kind of cutting in and out like a bad antenna
connection at 75,000 watts. Yikes.
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:06 PM paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw <
david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Hi Paul,
Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be? I am not seeing anything
in NH.
Thanks,
David N1HAC
On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
and follow the instructions there.
Sudden changes in amplitude or phase can also be a local phenomenon,
like a loose joint in a rain gutter system for example. One would think
that
such a problem in a high power transmitter installation would be setting
off alarms all over the place and probably automatically tripping the
transmitter off.
Dana
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:59 PM paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually its stranger than that they were down 10db and now are back up to
> -71 thats typical here. Its kind of cutting in and out like a bad antenna
> connection at 75,000 watts. Yikes.
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:06 PM paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw <
> > david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be? I am not seeing anything
> >> in NH.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> David N1HAC
> >>
> >> On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
> >> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> air
> >> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> have
> >> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> >> > run. Nice.
> >> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> also.
> >> > Enjoy.
> >> > Paul
> >> > WB8TSL
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> > To unsubscribe, go to
> >>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.febo.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts_lists.febo.com&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cac55ba07ba7e44c56e0408d83949707e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637322334868061249&sdata=ITxnnUFmF7%2F9U2dn25pwR8upRiBuSg6Uzw49CxxZBMQ%3D&reserved=0
> >> > and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
