Does it need to be a mechanical clock or would a computer display do ?
I think Lady Heather will display GPS time rather than UTC. So a raspberry
pi board (even the very oldest spec, not one of the hard-to-find ones)
would be adequate.
I realise that's different to what you asked for, but it seems as though it
gives you what you want.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 3:25 PM David G. McGaw via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
1PPS into a toggle flip-flop such as a 74AC74 w/ feedback (AC has strong
output drive, can run off 2V to 5.5V) followed by a differentiator
(could be just an appropriate capacitor) could generate the bipolar
pulses for a standard battery clock movement.
David N1HAC
On 12/15/22 2:59 AM, Bill Beam via time-nuts wrote:
Relatively easy DIY project. Most battery operated wall clock movements
are driven
by a two phase motor - positive pulse followed by negative pulse. Many
GPS modules
provide a single phase pps output. The problem is to generate the bi
phase from the
single phase pps. I have a Brooks Shere system running that has a
'heart beat' signal
available (one second on, one second off). If that signal is applied
thru a series capacitor
(about 47-100 microF) it will be differentiated to provide the bi phase
pulses.
Remove the battery from the clock. Locate the motor winding and apply
the bi phase signal.
I have had a couple of wall clocks driven by GPS for years. It only
missis a beat if the GPS goes down.
Alternate solution is to use a micro processor on a chip (about $2.50)
to generate bi phase
from pps. That takes about 4-6 lines of program, depending on the chip.
Regards.
Bill, NL7F
On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:09:26 -0500, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote:
Hi
I realize that this is a bit of an odd project, but this is Time Nuts
G??..
I want a analog wall clock that reads out GPS time. As far as I can
tell, nobody
is crazy enough to make one and sell it in the open market. If indeed
there is
one out there, that would be great. This does not have to be a project.
If it is a project, IG??m lazy, I donG??t want to set the thing and
then count on it never
missing a beat. I want a movement that has some form of feedback. The
WWVB clocks have a movement like this. I could tear one apart and try to
reverse engineer the guts. That sounds like. a project inside a project.
Does anybody sell feedback movements like this in the hobby market? If
so has
anybody used one and can vouch for it working for more than a few
months?
Indeed, doing it with a display of some sort would be easier in some
respects.
For now at least, IG??m looking for a mechanical gizmo with hands that
move.
If it reads out 12 hour time thatG??s ok. 24 hour time would be super
cool, but
itG??s not vital.
Anybody know of a source?
Thanks!
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Bill Beam
NL7F
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
As pointed out by other people already, there are several analog wall
clocks out there that can be set by external means like NTP, GPS, etc.
In my mind they all suffer from the same flaw, which is their
functionality is restricted to advancing time in precise increments but
don't "know the time". I.e. if power goes away and comes back, you'll
have to set such clocks by hand, even though their motor function can be
influenced. What is lacking is a set of 3 absolute position rotary
encoders with 6° resolution like described at [1] which referenced [2].
Somebody^{TM} should put such a clock together. 3 such encoders, a
stepper motor with gears to arrive at 6°, the rest is just software.
-Alex OE2AHL
[1] https://www.instructables.com/Absolute-Position-Encoder-With-Single-Track-Gray-C/
[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6111776/
On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 03:09:26PM -0500, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote:
Hi
I realize that this is a bit of an odd project, but this is Time Nuts …..
I want a analog wall clock that reads out GPS time. As far as I can tell, nobody
is crazy enough to make one and sell it in the open market. If indeed there is
one out there, that would be great. This does not have to be a project.
If it is a project, I’m lazy, I don’t want to set the thing and then count on it never
missing a beat. I want a movement that has some form of feedback. The
WWVB clocks have a movement like this. I could tear one apart and try to
reverse engineer the guts. That sounds like. a project inside a project.
Does anybody sell feedback movements like this in the hobby market? If so has
anybody used one and can vouch for it working for more than a few months?
Indeed, doing it with a display of some sort would be easier in some respects.
For now at least, I’m looking for a mechanical gizmo with hands that move.
If it reads out 12 hour time that’s ok. 24 hour time would be super cool, but
it’s not vital.
Anybody know of a source?
Thanks!
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Hi
One advantage of going straight from a GPS module to the clock is that
the setup should run through the next leap second with no operator intervention.
Having a setup that simply offsets UTC by X seconds and then feeds that
to the clock gets you into updates.
Since this is an “eyeball” measurement, anything better than milliseconds is plenty
good enough. My tired old eyes can’t detect a clock tick that is off by even 10’s
of milliseconds. Not a lot of need for sawtooth correction or fancy pps stuff.
Yes, this is a very different sort of clock and time requirement than most of what
we chat about. Running a clock at the “wrong time” will be interesting. Noticing
that it’s 18 or so seconds off should be pretty easy to do.
Bob
On Dec 15, 2022, at 10:15 AM, paul swed via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Hello to the group.
Interesting subject. There is another approach to this and I and Rodger are
working it.
Thats to reuse broadcast television clocks like Evertz. They make wall
clocks, rackmount versions all driven by LTC timecode. These can be had on
ebay at times for reasonable cost.
How to drive these. The normal way is a gps locked broadcast generator.
However in progress and working is an Arduino gps locked LTC generator.
Uses a cheap ublox GPS receiver and arduino and literally 2-3 cmos chips
74HC series.
OK that nasty soldering iron.
But it is working well. Still reworking some of the code.
Though I have the magical broadcast generator it consumes 30 watts and
given the power cost in New England now the arduino solution is .5 watts
all in.
I will share with timenuts all of the details when ready.
Not expecting this to take long but ordered a LEA-6T from China should be
here any week/day now. Its better than the NEO-6. The LEA has an advantage
it can generate a very good 2 KHz. Eliminating a stable 2 KHz osc in the
solution today.
This uses some code from the open LTC generator. That arduino code has some
very serious issues that are eliminated by the few chips added to build a
proper LTC encoder.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 9:53 AM Bill Notfaded via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Bob-
They don't hang on the wall or have mechanical movements but...
Here's one of my favorite semi analog clocks I have.
http://badnixie.com/Black_Emerald_Nixie.html
I have two modsix clocks running off the same GPS receiver wirelessly. It
outputs 4/6 letter WORD generator, selectable Time Sync out, integrated
GPS, Barometric Pressure, Humidity, Temp , and real GPS coordinates.
You can see them in one of my YouTube videos below. It's the two with
alphanumeric Nixie tubes the B-7971 and B-8971 tubes from Boroughs. I
consider them pretty analog as pure analog GPS receiver isn't something I'm
sure anyone has tried to build ie. no integrated circuits. If someone has
I'd love to see it:
I consider these pretty analog and nuts. 170V and you're good to go plus I
love neon plasma too!
Best Regards,
Bill
On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 10:11 PM Bob Camp via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Hi
I realize that this is a bit of an odd project, but this is Time Nuts …..
I want a analog wall clock that reads out GPS time. As far as I can tell,
nobody
is crazy enough to make one and sell it in the open market. If indeed
there is
one out there, that would be great. This does not have to be a project.
If it is a project, I’m lazy, I don’t want to set the thing and then
count
on it never
missing a beat. I want a movement that has some form of feedback. The
WWVB clocks have a movement like this. I could tear one apart and try to
reverse engineer the guts. That sounds like. a project inside a project.
Does anybody sell feedback movements like this in the hobby market? If so
has
anybody used one and can vouch for it working for more than a few months?
Indeed, doing it with a display of some sort would be easier in some
respects.
For now at least, I’m looking for a mechanical gizmo with hands that
move.
If it reads out 12 hour time that’s ok. 24 hour time would be super cool,
but
it’s not vital.
Anybody know of a source?
Thanks!
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
On 12/15/22 9:57 AM, Alexander Huemer via time-nuts wrote:
As pointed out by other people already, there are several analog wall
clocks out there that can be set by external means like NTP, GPS, etc.
In my mind they all suffer from the same flaw, which is their
functionality is restricted to advancing time in precise increments but
don't "know the time". I.e. if power goes away and comes back, you'll
have to set such clocks by hand, even though their motor function can be
influenced. What is lacking is a set of 3 absolute position rotary
encoders with 6° resolution like described at [1] which referenced [2].
Somebody^{TM} should put such a clock together. 3 such encoders, a
stepper motor with gears to arrive at 6°, the rest is just software.
-Alex OE2AHL
There are clocks that pulse forward with one polarity, and reset to "top
of the hour or day" with a negative pulse. My middle school had them in
the 1970s, and it was interesting to watch the reset cycle (at noon).
Or, to be honest, it might be some sort of "power switching" protocol.
That is, use 60 Hz to run, but some pattern of interruption sets it to a
known time. But I remember watching the minute hand snap to 12, then
advance in discrete steps.
Some time ago I bought a NOS slave clock on eBay for about $25. It runs on
110V 60 Hz. It has a solenoid to reset time to 12:00 and all the clocks in
a building lijj my e a school would get the reset pulse at the time.
Well being ham fisted, I broke or burned out the reset solenoid, so no way
to set the time any more.
But I love this clock! So, I built an inverter and used a microcontroller
to generate a precise 60 Hz sine wave. I’m running it at 90 VAC and it’s
dead quiet. The second hand has continues movement. I wrote the code to
allow running the clock at different frequencies to simply setting the
time. E.g., running it at 59 Hz makes it lose 1 second per minute.
I get the frequency from a GPSDO. Once I set the time, it never drifts.
I spent a bunch of time fretting about power loss, and how to automatically
adjust the time afterwards, but realized I actually didn’t care because the
process of setting the time by running the clock at the wrong speed was
kinda fun.
I can’t begin to tell you how much time I’ve spent staring at this thing
while listening to WWV on the phone, and tuning it so the new minute begins
when the second hand is in the center of the black dot at the 12 position
on the dial.
I do have lights that blink if it loses power, or loses the 10 MHz
reference so I know I need to set it.
I was careful to make a very clean inverter as I didn’t want any harmonics
causing vibration in the synchronous motor.
I can post pics, but it’s just an institutional wall clock like you used to
see in schools or railway stations.
Neil
On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 9:11 PM Bob Camp via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Hi
I realize that this is a bit of an odd project, but this is Time Nuts …..
I want a analog wall clock that reads out GPS time. As far as I can tell,
nobody
is crazy enough to make one and sell it in the open market. If indeed
there is
one out there, that would be great. This does not have to be a project.
If it is a project, I’m lazy, I don’t want to set the thing and then count
on it never
missing a beat. I want a movement that has some form of feedback. The
WWVB clocks have a movement like this. I could tear one apart and try to
reverse engineer the guts. That sounds like. a project inside a project.
Does anybody sell feedback movements like this in the hobby market? If so
has
anybody used one and can vouch for it working for more than a few months?
Indeed, doing it with a display of some sort would be easier in some
respects.
For now at least, I’m looking for a mechanical gizmo with hands that move.
If it reads out 12 hour time that’s ok. 24 hour time would be super cool,
but
it’s not vital.
Anybody know of a source?
Thanks!
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Bob,
TAI, UTC, and GPST (GPS System Time) is available here:
http://leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
I added one for you (Nixie display):
http://leapsecond.com/m/gpst.htm
If your new analog clock disagrees with these let me know. For more
information on GPS Time (GPST), Galileo System Time (GST), and BeiDou
Time (BDT), here's a short summary:
https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.php/Time_References_in_GNSS
Note that GPST = UTC + 18 s (currently) but GPST = TAI - 19 s (always).
So your analog clock will always be correct since TAI, GPST, GST, and
BDT are unaffected by leap seconds in UTC.
/tvb
On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:49 AM Alexander Huemer via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
influenced. What is lacking is a set of 3 absolute position rotary
encoders with 6° resolution like described at [1] which referenced [2].
Somebody^{TM} should put such a clock together. 3 such encoders, a
stepper motor with gears to arrive at 6°, the rest is just software.
Yes, but mechanically is an expensive way to make a small memory. This is
why I suggested a nonvolatile ram/eeprom. It can be in the clock or in the
clock controller : the difference between those is that in the latter,
cabling faults cause memory loss.
The key point is that you align it once (at manufacture) and thereafter
writes (ticks) change both mechanical and electronic representations and
reads (on recovery) read only the electronic one. If a synchronome clock
with a capacitative impulse is used, it can probably be designed to
function even over a power failure synchronised with the tick.
The downside is difficulty of doing DST adjustments, especially autumn, But
since that's not wanted and the only correction is recovery forwards after
a power failure, it fits nicely. I don't know if you need to know that it's
stopped/recovering but a status led could show that.
Another option is to do as Alexander says and fit mechanical
feedback/readout. But it could be simplified with a top-dead-centre marker
I think one of the Synchronome competitors did this using a write-only
protocol. As the hour approached, a special signal was sent that put the
clock mechanically on the exact hour and then the next pulse restarted it
from there. However you need to tolerate a short synchronising error every
hour which sounds as though it wouldn't suit your needs.
Hi
On Dec 15, 2022, at 7:57 PM, Lux, Jim via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
On 12/15/22 9:57 AM, Alexander Huemer via time-nuts wrote:
As pointed out by other people already, there are several analog wall
clocks out there that can be set by external means like NTP, GPS, etc.
In my mind they all suffer from the same flaw, which is their
functionality is restricted to advancing time in precise increments but
don't "know the time". I.e. if power goes away and comes back, you'll
have to set such clocks by hand, even though their motor function can be
influenced. What is lacking is a set of 3 absolute position rotary
encoders with 6° resolution like described at [1] which referenced [2].
Somebody^{TM} should put such a clock together. 3 such encoders, a
stepper motor with gears to arrive at 6°, the rest is just software.
-Alex OE2AHL
There are clocks that pulse forward with one polarity, and reset to "top of the hour or day" with a negative pulse. My middle school had them in the 1970s, and it was interesting to watch the reset cycle (at noon). Or, to be honest, it might be some sort of "power switching" protocol. That is, use 60 Hz to run, but some pattern of interruption sets it to a known time. But I remember watching the minute hand snap to 12, then advance in discrete steps.
We had a system like that in one school I was at. For whatever reason, the clock in
one room always went insane at least once a week. It loved to do this in the middle of
class. Needless to say, all focus on learning went away when the clock started wildly
spinning through however many hours or minutes it though it needed to ….
Turns out they very much do still make those clocks, mechanical solenoids and all.
Slam them with some number of seconds of 24V or 110V AC on that solenoid and
they reset this or that way. Multiple systems came from all sorts of outfits and spares
still get made to match up with them.
I “discovered” that 110V signaling is something to be avoided pretty early on. I would
prefer to avoid that if I can for this project. That said, I’ll always remember the IBM clock
on the wall in 8th grade English class ….
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Quite a long thread and the last post was about analog clocks that had
typically been used in schools and office buildings. Bobs request I believe
was for a clock that was analog and lived in the family room?
I used the school/office clocks for a number of years and honestly the
click thumps will drive you crazy in a quiet area. Plus they take 24 volts.
I went to the very small 14" motor clocks and have been very happy ever
since. The clocks run off a battery operated divider and osc. Nothing
magical but I hate clocks that are out of sync. There are 4 clocks across
time zones.
To wrap up also consider noise.
Good luck Bob.
Regards
Paul
On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 5:02 AM Tom Van Baak via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Bob,
TAI, UTC, and GPST (GPS System Time) is available here:
http://leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
I added one for you (Nixie display):
http://leapsecond.com/m/gpst.htm
If your new analog clock disagrees with these let me know. For more
information on GPS Time (GPST), Galileo System Time (GST), and BeiDou
Time (BDT), here's a short summary:
https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.php/Time_References_in_GNSS
Note that GPST = UTC + 18 s (currently) but GPST = TAI - 19 s (always).
So your analog clock will always be correct since TAI, GPST, GST, and
BDT are unaffected by leap seconds in UTC.
/tvb
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
On 2022-12-15 20:57, Lux, Jim via time-nuts wrote:
There are clocks that pulse forward with one polarity, and reset to
"top of the hour or day" with a negative pulse. My middle school had
them in the 1970s, and it was interesting to watch the reset cycle (at
noon). Or, to be honest, it might be some sort of "power switching"
protocol. That is, use 60 Hz to run, but some pattern of interruption
sets it to a known time. But I remember watching the minute hand snap
to 12, then advance in discrete steps.
That sounds like an impulse clock that would use a DC pulse from a
master clock to pick a solenoid that operated a ratchet mechanism that
advanced the minute hand and the hour hand was gear driven off of it. I
have an old IBM impulse clock that used a 24 VDC pulse to advance the
minute hand. Over the ratchet wheel there is a two way contact that is
operated by a bump on the ratchet wheel that would disconnect the normal
pulse at 1 minute before the hour. There where both two wire and three
wire system, mine is wired for the three wire so the top normally open
contact is connected to the third wire, so with it stopped at 1 minute
to the hour, a pulse on the third wire would advance the clock on step
and the normally closed contact would close again and it would
continue. On the two wire system there is a diode in series with I
believe the normally open contact and the signal line so that when the
normally open is closed, it will only advance when a pulse of reverse
polarity is applied.
There was a later system that used clocks with a synchronous motor and
used signals superimposed on the AC line to synchronize the clocks.
These clock are easy to recognize as they have a second hand where as
the impulse clocks do not.
It should also be noted that IBM did make wall clocks that that where
just normal AC clocks that where not part of a system, like the 15" one
in front of me built at the IBM Canada plant in Don Mills in the 50s and
still runs great although there is a little slop in the gears now.
I believe the impulse system was initially developed by International
Time Recorder (ITR) one of the predecessor companies that was merged to
form CTR later renamed to IBM. IBM would later sell it timeclock
division to Simplex that continued to produce many of the same designs.
Paul.