Re: T&T: Inverter recommendations - NO to Victron
From: "Joseph Pica" ...@gmail.com
Snip:"...Mastervolt and Victron make very good products...."
Inverter Recommendation... Speaking as a person with 2 Victron Multipluses
and a 3 year legacy of support failures and obstacles...I would not install
a Victron inverter again until Victron has a North American service center
and provider which they do not.
I've never had trouble getting service and support on VIctron
products, although admittedly I haven't needed much of either. There
are four service centers in the US.
Mastervolt is
across the street from Victron so I consider them the same (perhaps a rash
judgment but Holland is far away (5hours time difference).
Mastervolt has a number of company service centers in the US (as
opposed to the outsourced ones that Victron uses). I'm most familiar
with the ones in Hanover MD and Ft Lauderdale. The Hanover folks
pulled a generator off the shelf and walked me through a repair
procedure to support the work in the usual upside down, dark, and
cramped environs of in situ repair. The Ft Lauderdale service guy (who
runs all the Mastervolt service work in the US) walked me through a
challenging diagnostic to good effect.
I'm sorry you have had trouble with Victron. Have you tried
escalating? A colleague of mine has sold and installed a lot of
Victron products. Would you like to see if he can help you get help?
I do recommend
Magnum as a domestic inverter company with a solid support network and
reputation.
Magnum looks like RV equipment sold into the marine market from their
website. That may or may not make a lot of difference but I would look
at the operational temperature ranges if you plan to install equipment
in an engine room. Looks like a lot of happy experience on this list.
** from Jim Healy aboard Santuary **
First, stay away from 8D batteries, not because they're inherently bad, but
because they're very heavy.
I mostly agree. If you have two 8D batteries now that still have
service life I wouldn't change them just because they are heavy. I'd
wait until they approach end-of-life and convert to 6V wet-cell golf
cart batteries. That's a good time to make any battery box changes to
make room for six golf carts (675 Ah house bank) and an engine start
battery.
No one ever complains about too big a battery bank.
From: "Brent Hodges" ...@gmail.com
I also recommend a high output alternator. I have Balmars myself.
Agree. I have a Balmar HO on the main engine that charges the house
bank and a little Hitachi that charges the start battery. A crossover
switch lets me charge everything from one alternator if one fails.
best, dave
S/V Auspicious
On 12/28/2012 8:00 AM, Dave Skolnick (S/V Auspicious) wrote:
Magnum looks like RV equipment sold into the marine market from their
website. That may or may not make a lot of difference but I would look
at the operational temperature ranges if you plan to install equipment
in an engine room. Looks like a lot of happy experience on this list.
** from Jim Healy aboard Santuary **
I mostly agree. If you have two 8D batteries now that still have
service life I wouldn't change them just because they are heavy. I'd
wait until they approach end-of-life and convert to 6V wet-cell golf
cart batteries. That's a good time to make any battery box changes to
make room for six golf carts (675 Ah house bank) and an engine start
battery.
I'd agree, although I went a different route. I used AGM's- 6 Lifeline
LT-16 2 volt. They're in series to provide a 12v bank, and it eliminates
the parallel charging problems that I am certain was the cause of the
early demise of my original bank of 6 golf carts in series-parallel.
You'll find some disagreement on that entire subject, but the L16's are
the same footprint as the golf carts, just double the height. They're
also about 115 # or so each, but they're still much easier to manage
than an 8D. Mine is set up so I can slide the batteries in and out of
their home and lift where they're easy to grab.
No one ever complains about too big a battery bank.
I'd agree, with the exception that with my big bank, I've learned my
140A (Amptech) high output alternator isn't big enough. I can't get the
voltage up high enough when the bank is discharged and I'm underway with
all the 12V load that I run. Granted, I'm a power hog, my typical 12V
load underway is over 60 amps, more at night, and that's a whole 'nuther
issue, but keep in mind that the AGM's and their very low resistance is
a black hole to the alternator output, so the voltage stays pretty low
(like 12.8V) until the batteries start to float. AGM's want a minimum of
.25C because of that characteristic. So when you go making that big
bank, be sure you have enough juice to provide that minimum charge rate,
particularly if you use AGM's. A larger alternator is in my future, a
ZENA perhaps. I believe the Balmar's are overpriced as has been
discussed previously on the list.
From: "Brent Hodges" ...@gmail.com
I also recommend a high output alternator. I have Balmars myself.
--
Steve Sipe
Solo 4303 "Maerin"
Middle River, MD
I have been following this thread with some interest as I am only using Victron products on LeeZe.
I will tell you their service policy is abut as clear as mud.
They state they have a world wide warranty, but it took me 12 weeks to ACTUALLY receive a copy of the matrix they use to determine if a product that has failed will be covered by their "world-wide" warranty. (Oh yes, that matrix is a number of pages long, and if one tries to follow it for your particular situation, give up and go have a drink because it is not even "clear as mud.")
I will also tell you that when my battery charger (multi-voltage 24 VDC 100 amps, one of two installed) failed within a month of receiving the boat from the builder), I had to remove it from the boat and send it to Istanbul, who had to send it to Holland, who took 10 weeks to determine that somehow, I was at fault but thru pity and good corporate gratitude, they replaced it free of charge, except for postage from Istanbul to me in Izmir (which had to pay), and I had to pay to get it installed.
Since then, the temperature sensors that connect to the house battery's negative post have failed MULTIPLE times, and Victron, while saying they cannot explain, have always sent to me new ones, but have recently failed to authorize their authorized service people to install them.
Which seems like an oxi-moron corporate policy.
They claim they are failing because they are installed incorrectly, but refuse to install them correctly.
The ones that have failed WERE installed by their authorized service people!!!
Now, they want me, an UNAUTHORIZED service person, to install them because what, they are acknowledging that their AUTHORIZED service people are incapable of installing these correctly? Go figure.
They have also told me that I need to install these new temperature sensors on the POSITIVE battery terminal even though the manual CLEARLY states that these devices are to be attached to the NEGATIVE terminal. (Oh BTW, I see no reason TECHNICALLY why these cannot be on EITHER terminal but, heck, I am one to read and comply with the book, even when I think the book is poorly written and leaves a lot of info out that really should be there.
But, also, all one has to do is connect the two wires to the battery charger, or cut and insert the new sensor into the current wires, unbolt the cables to the neg post and bolt the new sensor in.
Not hard, so how can one screw it up? Somehow, they believe their people can, and I cannot.... Is that trust and faith???
Victron also seems to leave a LOT of important stuff out of the manual.
I had to set up my charger for a traction deep cycle 1250 amp-hr (24 VDC, 12 2.2 VDC cells) and did it per the manual.
Then Victron told me that a dip switch had to be on vice off... for my setup... which made no sense to me based on what the function of the dip switch. But I did and then after seeing abnormal charging behavior, challenged Victron who then told me to put the switch back into its off position.
There is a caution on the cover of the battery charger that basically says that the end user should not remove the cover. Only an "authorized service person" can but I have been repeatedly told to do this or that inside the battery charger which requires me, the end user to remove this cover.
Again, an oxi-moron corporate policy.
Ok, so given all of the above, and had I known all of the above BEFORE buying all the Victron products on LeeZe (and there are at least 15 on board), would I have chosen another product one????
Nope. Nada... Not a chance... No "F---in" Way.
Why? because with the exception of the one battery charger that failed (which they did replace some 90+% of the cost on their nickel, and it may have failed because they told me to put that dip switch into a position that was clearly wrong!) and their obstinate policy about paying their service people to replace the temperature sensors even though they have clearly and repeated told me these sensors MUST be being installed incorrectly, the other 95% of their products are working PERFECTLY
So, eventually I will resolve the 5%.
And in boating, 5% in my opinion puts me way ahead of where I could otherwise be.
Lee
LeeZe
Lee made my point. They are a well featured product but have a miserable and
deficient service policy and support procedure. I got mine because they were
the only units that could provide the power assist split phase bus system I
wanted. They have very well featured products that "mostly" perform as
designed.
However, you must be willing to accept a "service" policy that is vague,
obstinate, and conflicted at best requiring the product to be shipped to
Holland for evaluation and repair at your cost. Also accept tech support
that is distant, vague and at times confusing. You also must have the time
to be patient and energetically persistent in pursuing any remedy. After
almost 2 years, repeated efforts and cost equivalent to one a new unit (I
have two) I am finally 95% operational. The remaining problem is the units
will not respond to a specific programming feature. However, I have been
able to work around it.
So, if you are not willing to accept the corporate reluctance for service
for 5% of failures in Lee's case, or 100% X 3 failures in mine then perhaps
look else where. But purchase with eyes wide open.
Joe
M/V "Carolyn Ann" GH N-37
MTOA# 3813
AGLCA# 5485 (Platinum Looper)
http://carolynann-n37.blogspot.com/
Joseph.pica@gmail.com
My recent experiences with Victron, Mastervolt, Magnum.
Mastervolt: Was called to a customers boat with a dead house bank. This is a
realitivly new Trawler with seperate Mastervolt charger and inverter. The
charger had failed, less than 6 months out of thier warranty period. (don't
remember their exact warranty on this item, just that it was just a few
months out)
Contacted their stateside tech support and was told to send the unit to them
for evaluation. Did so. Was contacted a week or so later and was told the
unit was "clearly out of warranty" and un-repairable by them. We could send
the unit back to the factory, (in Holland or whereever it is) at our
expence, and that they "might" be able to repair. Shipping both ways and
repair cost would be on us. We figured we would be out at least half the
cost of a new unit by doing this, and still have a charger with no warranty,
so owner chose to just replace with a new unit. In fairness, they did offer
a couple of hundred $ off the cost of the new unit. Oh, when I installed the
new unit we found that there were design changes that made his remote
incompatable with the new unit, so a new remote and cable had to be ran.
Boat owner was not overly upset about the whole thing, but I thought it was
very poor company performance for a company that claims to be the best on
the market. (And they certainly are one of the most expensive).
Victron: Recently was called to a less than two year old boat with a failed
Victron inverter /charger. Actually got reasonable tech support from an
office on the east coast and was told the unit was bad, "probably would be
covered under warranty", and given a repair center in Fla. Pulled the unit,
sent it in with 2nd day shipping to try to hurry the process for the
customer, and now a month later still don't have the inverter back, and they
can't tell us when we'll get it. What looked like was going to be good
service, based on the bad things I'd heard about their customer service, has
not panned out to be so good. Still don't know when we'll get it back, or if
it will be covered by warranty. (this unit is CLEARLY within it's two year
warranty period)
Magnum. I've installed at least half a dozen of their larger units, a few of
the smaller units, and have had no failures, warranty or otherwise. However,
I did have a long talk with one of their tech guys before we started
handling their line of equipment. I was told, that in the event of a
failure, they could talk me through the diagnosis and get the problem down
to the "board level", and they could send the parts to me, instead of us
having to ship the whole unit back and forth. I'm hoping we continue to get
the great performance and it's a long time before I have to test this
promise.
Xantrex, forgetaboutit.
Same disclaimer: I do work for a service company that sells all of these
units.
Brent Hodges
Seabrook, Tx
Forget about a Xantrex, if that's on your list. I bought one and hooked it
up to their controller and it appeared to have failed after warranty. I was
walked through diagnostics by Xantrex and finally ended up taking it out
and mailing it back to them, at great cost and hassle. They said it was
completely destroyed by saltwater and I had to buy another, as it's a real
hassle to switch brands. The new one had the same trouble. A savvy
electrician found the switch was the problem, not the inverter, so I had
sent them what I believe a perfectly good inverter after their missed
diagnosis, and couldn't get it back because they had already destroyed (Or
resold?) it. They refused to help me any further with this.
I'm a West Marine associate and have heard similar problems.
Don't buy a Xantrex.
Jeff Janacek
For fun reading see this:
http://www.hardysolar.com/inverter/inverter-history.html
You can see an interesting history of 'marine' inverts, and some of the key
players.
And my vote is Magnum, we just replaced a dead ProSine (now Xantrex) unit
with Magnum. Looked at Outback as well, but got a good deal on Magnum -
plus did not need to run a new control panel wire.
-al-
Viking Star
45' Monk Sr. / McQueen
mvVikingStar.blogspot.com
One way to put out a boat fire...
http://www.wimp.com/boatfire/
CUAgain,
Daniel Meyer
http://lifeisaroad.com
Has anyone had any experience with Fronius inverters and chargers? I have
seen them used in two large land based solar systems. In both cases they
were high capacity (12kw, I think) and 240 volt in a single unit which would
be convenient for big boats. Dead quiet, which would be a nice change from
my old Trace units that sing "hee hah" constantly. They must be rugged
because they were installed outdoors, with only a rain shelter. Have not
heard any complaints from either (one of them is my father-in-law...and oh
boy, I would hear about it...)
Eric Thoman
Abyssinia