Re: [PUP] PPM, Convergence, narrow boats, etc.
John Harris mentioned the stabilizer issues on the NAR. At the conclusion of
the NAR, Naiad sent out a letter to the press summarizing the various
problems. It's interesting reading...
http://www.kensblog.com/uploads/16765/naiad.pdf
My boat, a Nordhavn 62, had zero problems, although I should mentioned that
our system was completely overhauled just prior to the rally.
Milt Baker, who was responsible for all the rally logistics sent out a great
email, commenting on the Naiad letter. Here is an excerpt:
"...I have four personal take-away lessons from this:
-
It is my impression that the database on specking systems
for the kind of hard "commercial" duty seen on the small Nordhavns on
this rally is painfully thin. It has grown significantly with this
rally. I would hope that even as I write this Naiad engineers are
analyzing the failed parts to see why they failed how they can be
built better and looking hard at whether the systems were correctly
specified in the first place. I would also like to think that they
are looking at ways to make the systems work better with fewer
components. -
For someone building a small ocean-crossing yacht like a
Nordhavn, there's a LOT to be said for specifying a stabilizer system
at least one size up from the systems currently recommended--and I am
not talking about the size of the fins here. Yes, it costs more
money in the short run but it's likely to take a lickin' and keep on
tickin' in the long run as they used to say in the Timex
commercials. In short, if the goal is reliable and trustworthy
stabilization--rather than good warranty service--go up one size or
more. -
For a captain contemplating an ocean crossing in a small
yacht equipped with an active fin stabilization system, getting a
factory-authorized team to service AND SEA TRIAL the system shortly
before departure is a no-brainer. Likewise, carrying a made-up set
of spare hoses and spare oil for the system. -
One NAR yacht, the N46 Envoy, had both Naiad stabilizers
and paravanes. Skipper Wayne Davis and his crew were awfully happy
to have those paravanes when the Naiads quit. My own new N47 will
have both active fine stabilizers and paravanes. Belt AND suspenders!..."
Ken Williams
Nordhavn 68, Sans Souci
My take away from this, and the more successful passagemaking
experiences on boats with newer stabilizer systems, particularly ABT
TRAC, seem to confirm it, is that the reliability of stabilizers has
improved dramatically.
The note Ken included revealed issues related to sizing and competency
of installation, and I suspect reflects larger ten years ago (from
now, at least) competencies. Also to the detailed maintenance and
examination that's required before starting a crossing. But its still
amazing the number of boats which had problems.
Naiads fell out of favor with Nordhavn and were no longer offered by
the mfg on most models from about 2004 and on. Since the move to Trac
systems and a general upsizing of componenets, quite a number of boats
have made Atlantic and Pacific crossings without stabilizer issues.
The other message that seems clear is to buy the heaviest duty system
you can. Some 68 footers are built with the Trac 220 system and 7.5 sq
ft fins, but my 55 has the heavier 250 system and 9 sq ft fins, which
are used on up to 80 footers by some manufacturers. That and a keel
cooler to keep the hydraulic fluid cooled without additional pumps.
Naiad has redesigned their systems, and with an oversized system, I
know of at least one guy who is happy with them now: Steve Dashew on
Wind Horse. His recommendations on his web page strongly recommend
oversize systems, and in addition, designing the hull of the new 64
FPB to incorporate stabilizers at the optimal location, and also to
build some pretty elaborate special framework in the aluminum hull to
increase strength in that area.
Check out the construction photo:
http://www.setsail.com/dashew/fpb64update_jul10.html
John
On Nov 9, 2008, at 9:27 PM, Ken Williams wrote:
John Harris mentioned the stabilizer issues on the NAR. At the
conclusion of
the NAR, Naiad sent out a letter to the press summarizing the various
problems. It's interesting reading...
http://www.kensblog.com/uploads/16765/naiad.pdf
My boat, a Nordhavn 62, had zero problems, although I should
mentioned that
our system was completely overhauled just prior to the rally.
Milt Baker, who was responsible for all the rally logistics sent out
a great
email, commenting on the Naiad letter. Here is an excerpt:
"...I have four personal take-away lessons from this:
-
It is my impression that the database on specking systems
for the kind of hard "commercial" duty seen on the small Nordhavns on
this rally is painfully thin. It has grown significantly with this
rally. I would hope that even as I write this Naiad engineers are
analyzing the failed parts to see why they failed how they can be
built better and looking hard at whether the systems were correctly
specified in the first place. I would also like to think that they
are looking at ways to make the systems work better with fewer
components. -
For someone building a small ocean-crossing yacht like a
Nordhavn, there's a LOT to be said for specifying a stabilizer system
at least one size up from the systems currently recommended--and I am
not talking about the size of the fins here. Yes, it costs more
money in the short run but it's likely to take a lickin' and keep on
tickin' in the long run as they used to say in the Timex
commercials. In short, if the goal is reliable and trustworthy
stabilization--rather than good warranty service--go up one size or
more. -
For a captain contemplating an ocean crossing in a small
yacht equipped with an active fin stabilization system, getting a
factory-authorized team to service AND SEA TRIAL the system shortly
before departure is a no-brainer. Likewise, carrying a made-up set
of spare hoses and spare oil for the system. -
One NAR yacht, the N46 Envoy, had both Naiad stabilizers
and paravanes. Skipper Wayne Davis and his crew were awfully happy
to have those paravanes when the Naiads quit. My own new N47 will
have both active fine stabilizers and paravanes. Belt AND
suspenders!..."
Ken Williams
Nordhavn 68, Sans Souci
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Ron: I just added your comments below to the Passagemaker wiki at:
http://passagemaker.wikispaces.com/Length%2C+Width+and+Draft
Please take a look. If you don' t want it there, please let me know, and I'll
remove it. also, any comments or suggestions would be most welcome.
Jonathan Haas
--- On Sun, 11/9/08, Ron Rogers rcrogers6@kennett.net wrote:
From: Ron Rogers rcrogers6@kennett.net
Subject: Re: [PUP] PPM, Convergence, narrow boats, etc.
To: mark424x@yahoo.com, "'Passagemaking Under Power List'"
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 12:37 PM
Long and skinny is good. A long and narrow Swede 55 sloop was moored next to
me in Annapolis for the Bermuda Race. The race that year was very rough and
she won. All agree that she would not have won had it not been so rough. She
sliced through the waves while others pounded. That's the way Dashew
designs
his boats. BTW, my boathook also won the Bermuda race and I am still waiting
for its return.
Idlewild was purpose built for long range voyaging and has a high asking
price. She lacks creature comforts and is powered for the task and no more.
She probably has over-strength scantlings. Her qualities are not valued by
most buyers and most voyagers want more want more comfortable surrounding
similar to what the Diesel Ducks deliver. The Diesel Duck prices have
climbed to near $500,000 FOB China. If you don't want to sail away, it will
cost you another $100,000 delivered to Seattle or a port in Florida
inclusive of commissioning.
Dave and Nancy Cooper have a Roughwater 56' with a naval architect designed
roll tank on their flybridge. Dave says it works perfectly both underweigh
and at anchor. Properly designed simple is best. I would have both a roll
tank and active stabilizers because the new more intelligent stabilizers can
handle fore and aft pitching as well as rolling. My old, dumb Naiad 252's
need to be centered and locked going into a 5 or 6 foot sea. The natural
buoyancy of the Willard 40 design ensures that no water comes on deck (with
34 knots of wind.) My Willard's narrow fore and aft passageway is not what
the Admiral usually looks for unless she has been in a serious seaway. BTW,
my 1985 W40 FBS with a less efficient Perkins 6.534 gets 2.5 gph at 7.5
knots with the 8KW Onan powering the A/C units. If I back off to 7 knots and
turn off the generator, I imagine this full-displacement hull could get
Patrick's 1.5 gph. When diesel was at $4.00 I was thinking of 6 knots.
Ron Rogers
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark
--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Georgs Kolesnikovs
By the by, Idlewild is still for sale --
Having never been on the boat, I can't hazard a guess as to why she
hasn't
sold. I would caution about making conclusions about particular design
elements from one boat. In addition to the long skinny attribute, and the
basic systems attribute, the design for portage forced some trade offs, from
the photos it also appears to have few creature comforts, and perhaps a bit
high priced for what it is.
Re stablization, I love the roll tank I idea. I believe someone on this
list has one. It seems a bit to good to be true, otherwise we'd see them
all over the place. Simple is good.
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
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Hello,
A while ago a gentleman on this PUP site said he had a great relationship
with his builder in Canada (East Coast). Could this gentleman advise us as
to whom this builder was. Thanks in advance, Michael Tessier at
ttessier@cogeco.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Haas
Sent: January 4, 2009 6:43 PM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: Re: [PUP] PPM, Convergence, narrow boats, etc.
Ron: I just added your comments below to the Passagemaker wiki at:
http://passagemaker.wikispaces.com/Length%2C+Width+and+Draft
Please take a look. If you don' t want it there, please let me know, and
I'll
remove it. also, any comments or suggestions would be most welcome.
Jonathan Haas
--- On Sun, 11/9/08, Ron Rogers rcrogers6@kennett.net wrote:
From: Ron Rogers rcrogers6@kennett.net
Subject: Re: [PUP] PPM, Convergence, narrow boats, etc.
To: mark424x@yahoo.com, "'Passagemaking Under Power List'"
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 12:37 PM
Long and skinny is good. A long and narrow Swede 55 sloop was moored next to
me in Annapolis for the Bermuda Race. The race that year was very rough and
she won. All agree that she would not have won had it not been so rough. She
sliced through the waves while others pounded. That's the way Dashew
designs
his boats. BTW, my boathook also won the Bermuda race and I am still waiting
for its return.
Idlewild was purpose built for long range voyaging and has a high asking
price. She lacks creature comforts and is powered for the task and no more.
She probably has over-strength scantlings. Her qualities are not valued by
most buyers and most voyagers want more want more comfortable surrounding
similar to what the Diesel Ducks deliver. The Diesel Duck prices have
climbed to near $500,000 FOB China. If you don't want to sail away, it will
cost you another $100,000 delivered to Seattle or a port in Florida
inclusive of commissioning.
Dave and Nancy Cooper have a Roughwater 56' with a naval architect designed
roll tank on their flybridge. Dave says it works perfectly both underweigh
and at anchor. Properly designed simple is best. I would have both a roll
tank and active stabilizers because the new more intelligent stabilizers can
handle fore and aft pitching as well as rolling. My old, dumb Naiad 252's
need to be centered and locked going into a 5 or 6 foot sea. The natural
buoyancy of the Willard 40 design ensures that no water comes on deck (with
34 knots of wind.) My Willard's narrow fore and aft passageway is not what
the Admiral usually looks for unless she has been in a serious seaway. BTW,
my 1985 W40 FBS with a less efficient Perkins 6.534 gets 2.5 gph at 7.5
knots with the 8KW Onan powering the A/C units. If I back off to 7 knots and
turn off the generator, I imagine this full-displacement hull could get
Patrick's 1.5 gph. When diesel was at $4.00 I was thinking of 6 knots.
Ron Rogers
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark
--- On Sat, 11/8/08, Georgs Kolesnikovs
By the by, Idlewild is still for sale --
Having never been on the boat, I can't hazard a guess as to why she
hasn't
sold. I would caution about making conclusions about particular design
elements from one boat. In addition to the long skinny attribute, and the
basic systems attribute, the design for portage forced some trade offs, from
the photos it also appears to have few creature comforts, and perhaps a bit
high priced for what it is.
Re stablization, I love the roll tank I idea. I believe someone on this
list has one. It seems a bit to good to be true, otherwise we'd see them
all over the place. Simple is good.
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.