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Re: [PUP] Costs of living and cruising worldwide, cost of food, cost of cruising

HV
hannu venermo
Wed, Oct 24, 2007 11:26 AM

Some information and thoughts.

I come from Finland, Europe, and am under national health insurance by
the government for life.
I have traveled all my life, to central/south America, Africa, all
Europe, the us, Thailand. I have lived 19 years away from Finland. I am
an avid diver and have been diving since 19, and have been to Honduras,
Santo Domingo, grand cayman, extensively Mexico, etc. so I consider that
my experiences may be relevant and / or interesting.

In my case, and many others in Europe, my insurance costs are limited. I
can get additional health insurance, at my age, 39, for 300  / yr
worldwide travel, from sprain, that includes unlimited travel and
medical care, including diving accidents and helicopter evacuation cover
if needed, as long as I maintain a postal address in Spain (100/yr to
free with friends).

Food costs worldwide are low.
In Barcelona, Spain, one of the most expensive cities in Spain, dining
our for 2, with drinks, wine etc. is 60-80  for 4-5 star restaurant.
Some of the best food in the world, in my experience. A good lunch is
12-15 , and a decent one 8-10 , includes dessert and beer or wine.
An excellent dinner even in Barcelona, non-tourist, for 2, when you know
where to go, in a good restaurant, can be had for 30-35  for 2.
In sprain, out of Madrid and Barcelona, locals would not pay more than
6-8  for a restaurant lunch, and 10-5 for fancy dinner, pp.

In Mexico city, local food, also excellent, in my experience, is 3-5
per meal.
The most expensive restaurants, like "Tony Romas for ribs" or
"chipotle", can run 20-30 per person. Locals seldom eat in these, as
the cost is extravagant.
Likewise resort cities in Cancun, or playa de mujeres, mexico.
In all of these places, I mostly prefer local food, and seldom spend
more than 6-8 , and will often eat local style for 3-4 .

In Honduras, island of roatan, or the capital city, a local meal is 3-4
$, and a good restaurant meal, white tablecloths etc. 10-15$. Best
imported meat, on the island, is 25$. Always with beer wine etc.
included. A whole lobster by the seashore is 12 $. A corona is 1.50 $.
Renting a 3-4 room private cottage with seaviews, on the shore, is 7-800
$ per month. Note. The standards will not be as good as Europe or the us.

In Thailand, phuket, a local meal is 2-4$, and excellent, with a beer.
The most fancy, gourmet lunch in phuket with world class views is 20 pp
with wine, wine is half the cost. The best meat/steak house with
Argentinian imported fillet is 15  pp. Rental cottage, cheap, away form
phuket is 2-300 /mo. A very nice house, 3 rooms with private pool and
garden in phuket is 800$-1000$ /mo.

Grand Cayman lives from the offshore banking industry. The food was ok
to excellent, but a seashore cafe, for lunch, with crab meat, a steak, 2
beers is 40 $. Its outrageously expensive compared to any of the other
places. Again, local food is cheap, but fancy places have a very, very
high cost.

Santo Domingo - hotel fare was decent, not excellent, between 10-12 $.
Local cuisine poor-to ok, 3-6$.

At home and traveling, where possible, I prefer to cook, it4s something
I enjoy.

Groceries for 3 cost 600  / month, for an excellent, balanced diet
heavy on lean meat, high quality, salads and European / asian and
Mexican cooking. A whole fillet is15 -20  / kg, Argentinian imported
file 22-24  kg. Very good Spanish wine 3,50  (Montecristo Camillo
Castilla, 2000, crianza) / bottle, if you know which one. This would
compare to a 30 $ Australian, Chilean or Argentinian wine. Most cheap
wines poor to quite poor. An excellent one, 16  (Martin & Cru) compares
favourably to 100 $ french ones.

My suggestion for costs:

  1. Boat
    a. Licensing - no yearly fees, in Europe, if not in charter use. Depends
    a bit, but under 200$/yr.

b. Fuel/oil: 1000 mi/month @ 0.50 mi, 500 $

c. Other maintenance: 450 $ /month

  1. Other
    Health insurance: 400 $/year

b. Prescription drugs: 300 $ /year

Note: these are cheap worldwide for all common, usual stuff. I am
excluding dialysis, cancers etc. as exotic and unusual.

c. Food: 800 $/month

d. moorage country fees etc. 800 $/month (this is a good estimate if
using marinas etc)

For me, about 400$/mo. This is (for me) 150$ in country permits and 300$
in moorings. I see moorings in use for me about 20% of the time.

This cost is very highly variable, and totally self-controlled. From
400/year to 20.000 /yr at marinas.
Marinas in the turks, caicos, bvi, st martin, etc. are 4500$-20.000$/yr.
You choose.
E.g. Tunisia, nicest port and marina in the country "port El Kantaoui",
4 months ago, for 13 m / 42 ft slip, is 6000/year

e. Flight home once/year + expenses 1500$/year

Total yearly expenses: 26.700 $, add 3 yearly hotel stays for 2 at 3000$
/ yr, say 31.000 $ total.

Food is for 2-3 people eating well. All other per person or boat as
appropriate.

Please note;
Plan for low consumption of fuel on buying/building the boat. Plan for
maintenance, I don4t think you can do it for less then 450$ /month.
A sailboat will cost more.

Some information and thoughts. I come from Finland, Europe, and am under national health insurance by the government for life. I have traveled all my life, to central/south America, Africa, all Europe, the us, Thailand. I have lived 19 years away from Finland. I am an avid diver and have been diving since 19, and have been to Honduras, Santo Domingo, grand cayman, extensively Mexico, etc. so I consider that my experiences may be relevant and / or interesting. In my case, and many others in Europe, my insurance costs are limited. I can get additional health insurance, at my age, 39, for 300 / yr worldwide travel, from sprain, that includes unlimited travel and medical care, including diving accidents and helicopter evacuation cover if needed, as long as I maintain a postal address in Spain (100/yr to free with friends). Food costs worldwide are low. In Barcelona, Spain, one of the most expensive cities in Spain, dining our for 2, with drinks, wine etc. is 60-80 for 4-5 star restaurant. Some of the best food in the world, in my experience. A good lunch is 12-15 , and a decent one 8-10 , includes dessert and beer or wine. An excellent dinner even in Barcelona, non-tourist, for 2, when you know where to go, in a good restaurant, can be had for 30-35 for 2. In sprain, out of Madrid and Barcelona, locals would not pay more than 6-8 for a restaurant lunch, and 10-5 for fancy dinner, pp. In Mexico city, local food, also excellent, in my experience, is 3-5 per meal. The most expensive restaurants, like "Tony Romas for ribs" or "chipotle", can run 20-30 per person. Locals seldom eat in these, as the cost is extravagant. Likewise resort cities in Cancun, or playa de mujeres, mexico. In all of these places, I mostly prefer local food, and seldom spend more than 6-8 , and will often eat local style for 3-4 . In Honduras, island of roatan, or the capital city, a local meal is 3-4 $, and a good restaurant meal, white tablecloths etc. 10-15$. Best imported meat, on the island, is 25$. Always with beer wine etc. included. A whole lobster by the seashore is 12 $. A corona is 1.50 $. Renting a 3-4 room private cottage with seaviews, on the shore, is 7-800 $ per month. Note. The standards will not be as good as Europe or the us. In Thailand, phuket, a local meal is 2-4$, and excellent, with a beer. The most fancy, gourmet lunch in phuket with world class views is 20 pp with wine, wine is half the cost. The best meat/steak house with Argentinian imported fillet is 15 pp. Rental cottage, cheap, away form phuket is 2-300 /mo. A very nice house, 3 rooms with private pool and garden in phuket is 800$-1000$ /mo. Grand Cayman lives from the offshore banking industry. The food was ok to excellent, but a seashore cafe, for lunch, with crab meat, a steak, 2 beers is 40 $. Its outrageously expensive compared to any of the other places. Again, local food is cheap, but fancy places have a very, very high cost. Santo Domingo - hotel fare was decent, not excellent, between 10-12 $. Local cuisine poor-to ok, 3-6$. At home and traveling, where possible, I prefer to cook, it4s something I enjoy. Groceries for 3 cost 600 / month, for an excellent, balanced diet heavy on lean meat, high quality, salads and European / asian and Mexican cooking. A whole fillet is15 -20 / kg, Argentinian imported file 22-24 kg. Very good Spanish wine 3,50 (Montecristo Camillo Castilla, 2000, crianza) / bottle, if you know which one. This would compare to a 30 $ Australian, Chilean or Argentinian wine. Most cheap wines poor to quite poor. An excellent one, 16 (Martin & Cru) compares favourably to 100 $ french ones. My suggestion for costs: 1. Boat a. Licensing - no yearly fees, in Europe, if not in charter use. Depends a bit, but under 200$/yr. b. Fuel/oil: 1000 mi/month @ 0.50 mi, 500 $ c. Other maintenance: 450 $ /month 2. Other Health insurance: 400 $/year b. Prescription drugs: 300 $ /year Note: these are cheap worldwide for all common, usual stuff. I am excluding dialysis, cancers etc. as exotic and unusual. c. Food: 800 $/month d. moorage country fees etc. 800 $/month (this is a good estimate if using marinas etc) For me, about 400$/mo. This is (for me) 150$ in country permits and 300$ in moorings. I see moorings in use for me about 20% of the time. This cost is very highly variable, and totally self-controlled. From 400/year to 20.000 /yr at marinas. Marinas in the turks, caicos, bvi, st martin, etc. are 4500$-20.000$/yr. You choose. E.g. Tunisia, nicest port and marina in the country "port El Kantaoui", 4 months ago, for 13 m / 42 ft slip, is 6000/year e. Flight home once/year + expenses 1500$/year Total yearly expenses: 26.700 $, add 3 yearly hotel stays for 2 at 3000$ / yr, say 31.000 $ total. Food is for 2-3 people eating well. All other per person or boat as appropriate. Please note; Plan for low consumption of fuel on buying/building the boat. Plan for maintenance, I don4t think you can do it for less then 450$ /month. A sailboat will cost more.
PP
Peter Pisciotta
Wed, Oct 24, 2007 12:13 PM

A couple tips/observations:

  1. Some "platinum" credit cards (I carry an AMEX
    Platinum) carry med-evac insurance from anywhere in
    the world. A friend's father recently had a major
    stroke while vacationing in Peru. Emergency med-evac
    costs topped $30K which would have been covered (at
    least partially). Platinum credit card are not cheap
    so you have to weigh the benefits (my AMEX costs
    $400/year). Other platinum benefits include free
    airline lounge access and free companion tickets on
    full-fare international biz-class travel (an expense
    account perk as these tickets are typically more
    expensive thant two similar tickets purchased at
    normal discount. Why pay more? to beat corporate
    expense account policies...).

  2. Car-rental insurance. Many cards provide basic CDW,
    but get into even a minor fender bender in a rental
    car and you'll have issues for months. Rental
    companies will hit you for loss of use, and your car
    insurance will only cover for deductible and serve as
    secondary insurance. Some platinum cards offer an
    option that provides full coverage comparable to
    checking all the boxes on a rental contract. AMEX
    charges $20 for the entire rental compared to about
    $25/day from the rental companies (there is a time
    limit - a couple weeks). For those who no longer have
    a car and regular insurance, it may be helpful

  3. Costs of eating out. The most consistently
    inexpensive (and edible) food I've ever encountered is
    San Francisco (I lived in the city for 12 years),
    where a good lunch can be had for well under
    $5/person, dinner for well under $10/person (no
    drinks). But you have to know where to go and overlook
    dreary decor. I've had cheap meals throughout Central
    America (almost every country from Panama to Mexico),
    but the meals have never been as cheap as legend had
    me believe. I never did find $5 lobster, $7 steaks, or
    tacos 3-for-a-dollar (close, but not quite). Even
    20-years ago traveling in Baja (and the northern
    mainland MX) and flashing headlights out to the
    fishing boats, I couldn't find the elusive $3/lb
    (then) shrimp. The mercados are cheap, but the
    mercados in many US cities are cheap too, though I
    suspect caucasions are as reluctant to shop in Central
    American mercados as they are US mercados. Thus the
    appeal of Sam's Club in Acapulco and Cabo San Lucas.

Peter
Willard 36
San Francisco

A couple tips/observations: 1. Some "platinum" credit cards (I carry an AMEX Platinum) carry med-evac insurance from anywhere in the world. A friend's father recently had a major stroke while vacationing in Peru. Emergency med-evac costs topped $30K which would have been covered (at least partially). Platinum credit card are not cheap so you have to weigh the benefits (my AMEX costs $400/year). Other platinum benefits include free airline lounge access and free companion tickets on full-fare international biz-class travel (an expense account perk as these tickets are typically more expensive thant two similar tickets purchased at normal discount. Why pay more? to beat corporate expense account policies...). 2. Car-rental insurance. Many cards provide basic CDW, but get into even a minor fender bender in a rental car and you'll have issues for months. Rental companies will hit you for loss of use, and your car insurance will only cover for deductible and serve as secondary insurance. Some platinum cards offer an option that provides full coverage comparable to checking all the boxes on a rental contract. AMEX charges $20 for the entire rental compared to about $25/day from the rental companies (there is a time limit - a couple weeks). For those who no longer have a car and regular insurance, it may be helpful 3. Costs of eating out. The most consistently inexpensive (and edible) food I've ever encountered is San Francisco (I lived in the city for 12 years), where a good lunch can be had for well under $5/person, dinner for well under $10/person (no drinks). But you have to know where to go and overlook dreary decor. I've had cheap meals throughout Central America (almost every country from Panama to Mexico), but the meals have never been as cheap as legend had me believe. I never did find $5 lobster, $7 steaks, or tacos 3-for-a-dollar (close, but not quite). Even 20-years ago traveling in Baja (and the northern mainland MX) and flashing headlights out to the fishing boats, I couldn't find the elusive $3/lb (then) shrimp. The mercados are cheap, but the mercados in many US cities are cheap too, though I suspect caucasions are as reluctant to shop in Central American mercados as they are US mercados. Thus the appeal of Sam's Club in Acapulco and Cabo San Lucas. Peter Willard 36 San Francisco
SB
Scott Bulger
Wed, Oct 24, 2007 3:46 PM

Peters comment on auto insurance left me wanting to remind those of you
considering leaving, MAKE SURE your named on someone's auto policy as a
driver.  It doesn't cost anything and if/when you come back to the US you
can go looking for insurance answering YES to the question "have you been
insured for the last 2 years".  I was told if I didn't do this I would not
be able to get coverage from a premium price carrier, such as PEMCO.  My
daughter and Son-in-law added me to their policy so I'm covered.  When I
rent a car now I buy the insurance, it's expensive, but less than bothering
them if something were to happen.

Besides, we bought those folding bikes everyone said NOT to buy, and we LOVE
them.  I rode several miles for parts before the smoke came to San Diego a
few days ago and the bike performed fantastically.  I guess it's all in what
your expectations are.  This is one purchase I'm glad my wife emphasized
strongly, otherwise we might not have done it.

Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA

Peters comment on auto insurance left me wanting to remind those of you considering leaving, MAKE SURE your named on someone's auto policy as a driver. It doesn't cost anything and if/when you come back to the US you can go looking for insurance answering YES to the question "have you been insured for the last 2 years". I was told if I didn't do this I would not be able to get coverage from a premium price carrier, such as PEMCO. My daughter and Son-in-law added me to their policy so I'm covered. When I rent a car now I buy the insurance, it's expensive, but less than bothering them if something were to happen. Besides, we bought those folding bikes everyone said NOT to buy, and we LOVE them. I rode several miles for parts before the smoke came to San Diego a few days ago and the bike performed fantastically. I guess it's all in what your expectations are. This is one purchase I'm glad my wife emphasized strongly, otherwise we might not have done it. Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA