Minicircuits 10% discount in December
Another reason is reproducibility. If you or someone else wants to reproduce your design, using a well defined and available commercial part makes it much easier to achieve the same performance, particularly for RF components.
Didier KO4BB
On November 27, 2014 12:41:34 PM CST, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" richard@karlquist.com wrote:
On 11/27/2014 7:07 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
For a hobbyist doing things a few at a time, what advantage is there
to
buying RF transformers made by Mini-circuits etc., vs winding them
using
commonly available ferrite cores/binocular cores?
If I needed to do a production run of 1000+ boards with tiny SMT
transformers, sure, no problem buying them from mini-circuits or a
distributor etc. But for hobbyist stuff seems far more flexible to
wind
them onesy-twosy using not so tiny cores and windings selected for
the
particular application.
Tim N3QE
You need the tiny cores to get the performance of the MiniCircuits
transformers. You just can't get the same bandwidth using macro sized
"binocular" cores. Now, if you don't need a lot of bandwidth, then
what you are saying could make sense. Another issue is stray
capacitance. Considerably lower with a tiny core.
I have spent many hours characterizing MiniCircuits transformers
beyond the data sheet specs, and dissecting them to learn how they
do it. They really do have a lot of rocket science in them. In
terms of the engineering I am buying (especially in a one-off
application) they are ridiculously cheap. And I say that as a fairly
knowledgeable transformer designer in my own right.
I do keep binocular cores around for higher power transformers, and
for "emergencies" when I need a transformer "yesterday".
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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YES!
That's exactly why I go to Mini-Circuits.
Jim
On 11/27/2014 2:03 PM, Didier Juges wrote:
Another reason is reproducibility. If you or someone else wants to reproduce your design, using a well defined and available commercial part makes it much easier to achieve the same performance, particularly for RF components.
Didier KO4BB
On November 27, 2014 12:41:34 PM CST, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" richard@karlquist.com wrote:
On 11/27/2014 7:07 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
For a hobbyist doing things a few at a time, what advantage is there
to
buying RF transformers made by Mini-circuits etc., vs winding them
using
commonly available ferrite cores/binocular cores?
If I needed to do a production run of 1000+ boards with tiny SMT
transformers, sure, no problem buying them from mini-circuits or a
distributor etc. But for hobbyist stuff seems far more flexible to
wind
them onesy-twosy using not so tiny cores and windings selected for
the
particular application.
Tim N3QE
You need the tiny cores to get the performance of the MiniCircuits
transformers. You just can't get the same bandwidth using macro sized
"binocular" cores. Now, if you don't need a lot of bandwidth, then
what you are saying could make sense. Another issue is stray
capacitance. Considerably lower with a tiny core.
I have spent many hours characterizing MiniCircuits transformers
beyond the data sheet specs, and dissecting them to learn how they
do it. They really do have a lot of rocket science in them. In
terms of the engineering I am buying (especially in a one-off
application) they are ridiculously cheap. And I say that as a fairly
knowledgeable transformer designer in my own right.
I do keep binocular cores around for higher power transformers, and
for "emergencies" when I need a transformer "yesterday".
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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On 11/27/2014 11:03 AM, Didier Juges wrote:
Another reason is reproducibility. If you or someone else wants
to reproduce your design, using a well defined and available
commercial part makes it much easier to achieve the same
performance, particularly for RF components.
Didier KO4BB
Exactly right.
I wrote an article on receiving loops and showed a design
with a 50:5 (turns ratio) transformer wound on a toroid.
Again, this is not available from MiniCircuits. I have
wasted time dealing with numerous dumb questions about
"can I use XXX core that I have laying around the lab?"
or can I use a different gauge wire to wind it, etc.
So many people complained about the shipping cost to
buy one core that I stocked the cores and included them
with PC boards I was already selling to reduce the shipping
cost to "zero".
BTW, 73 material would NOT work in this application.
I was asked about that multiple times even though the
article specifically said it would not work and explained
why.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
As the things I want to do become more complex, and time gets more precious, I have adopted the mantra “buy the biggest piece you can. . .”
Don
On Nov 27, 2014, at 1:41 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist richard@karlquist.com wrote:
On 11/27/2014 11:03 AM, Didier Juges wrote:
Another reason is reproducibility. If you or someone else wants
to reproduce your design, using a well defined and available
commercial part makes it much easier to achieve the same
performance, particularly for RF components.
Didier KO4BB
Exactly right.
I wrote an article on receiving loops and showed a design
with a 50:5 (turns ratio) transformer wound on a toroid.
Again, this is not available from MiniCircuits. I have
wasted time dealing with numerous dumb questions about
"can I use XXX core that I have laying around the lab?"
or can I use a different gauge wire to wind it, etc.
So many people complained about the shipping cost to
buy one core that I stocked the cores and included them
with PC boards I was already selling to reduce the shipping
cost to "zero".
BTW, 73 material would NOT work in this application.
I was asked about that multiple times even though the
article specifically said it would not work and explained
why.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
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and follow the instructions there.
Mouser carries a selection from Fair-Rite. They don't make it easy to
find a specific part number, however.
Joe Gray
W5JG
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Tim Shoppa tshoppa@gmail.com wrote:
Again I refer you to Clifton Labs website and cross-references there to the
Fair-Rite part numbers/mixes. Although the marketing largely emphasizes EMI
suppression, all the mainline distributors now offer several mixes and core
styles that are perfect for RF transformers.
Powdered iron, yeah, those are not so easily found at mainline
distributors, I end up getting them from kitsandparts.com or Amidon.
And to Jim's point... "build your own" MMIC from discrete RF transistors
(often different generations of CATV-oriented transistors - you get the
advantage that you get tune bias currents etc. for individual need) is
quite easy using parts stocked at Mouser etc. They also have these
impressive super-beefy broadband CATV distribution/isolation amplifiers.
Tim N3QE
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
At least last time I looked, the "easy to find" distributors had great
selections of parts used for switching power supplies and EMI suppression.
When you started to dig for the specialized parts for RF transformers and
tuned filters, the stock was pretty thin to nonexistent. If you move from
ferrite to powdered iron, the search process alway has been more
difficult...
Bob
On Nov 27, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Tim Shoppa tshoppa@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
The main complaint is the difficulty of getting the correct cores. I
seem
to have a few dozen bags of cores.
The mainline distributors (Allied, Newark, Mouser, etc.) have excellent
selection of Fair-Rite and other cores. Admittedly to a neophyte the
equivalence of Fair-Rite or Laird part numbers to an Amidon-style number
may not be evident.
Clifton labs has excellent webpages of examples and is also a good way to
find the cores sizes and materials commonly stocked at the mainline
distributors using the manufacturer's part number (often with cross-ref
to
Amidon style number as a strong hint!)
Recently some here expressed concern that the mini-circuits part may
saturate with medium DC currents. Of course if you are doing a SMT
production run you don't want to use bigger cores than necessary and most
of the mini-circuits parts tend to be physically very tiny to meet this
market. But if you wind your own on bigger cores this is a non-issue.
Tim N3QE
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Hi
Finding the RF transformer parts is still a bit of a challenge.
Bob
On Nov 27, 2014, at 4:21 PM, Joseph Gray jgray@zianet.com wrote:
Mouser carries a selection from Fair-Rite. They don't make it easy to
find a specific part number, however.
Joe Gray
W5JG
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Tim Shoppa tshoppa@gmail.com wrote:
Again I refer you to Clifton Labs website and cross-references there to the
Fair-Rite part numbers/mixes. Although the marketing largely emphasizes EMI
suppression, all the mainline distributors now offer several mixes and core
styles that are perfect for RF transformers.
Powdered iron, yeah, those are not so easily found at mainline
distributors, I end up getting them from kitsandparts.com or Amidon.
And to Jim's point... "build your own" MMIC from discrete RF transistors
(often different generations of CATV-oriented transistors - you get the
advantage that you get tune bias currents etc. for individual need) is
quite easy using parts stocked at Mouser etc. They also have these
impressive super-beefy broadband CATV distribution/isolation amplifiers.
Tim N3QE
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
At least last time I looked, the "easy to find" distributors had great
selections of parts used for switching power supplies and EMI suppression.
When you started to dig for the specialized parts for RF transformers and
tuned filters, the stock was pretty thin to nonexistent. If you move from
ferrite to powdered iron, the search process alway has been more
difficult...
Bob
On Nov 27, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Tim Shoppa tshoppa@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
The main complaint is the difficulty of getting the correct cores. I
seem
to have a few dozen bags of cores.
The mainline distributors (Allied, Newark, Mouser, etc.) have excellent
selection of Fair-Rite and other cores. Admittedly to a neophyte the
equivalence of Fair-Rite or Laird part numbers to an Amidon-style number
may not be evident.
Clifton labs has excellent webpages of examples and is also a good way to
find the cores sizes and materials commonly stocked at the mainline
distributors using the manufacturer's part number (often with cross-ref
to
Amidon style number as a strong hint!)
Recently some here expressed concern that the mini-circuits part may
saturate with medium DC currents. Of course if you are doing a SMT
production run you don't want to use bigger cores than necessary and most
of the mini-circuits parts tend to be physically very tiny to meet this
market. But if you wind your own on bigger cores this is a non-issue.
Tim N3QE
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
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Am 27.11.2014 um 23:30 schrieb Bob Camp:
Hi
Finding the RF transformer parts is still a bit of a challenge.
No. These work quite good for me:
CX2074 4:1 CT
CX2147 1:1 CT
<
http://www.digikey.de/product-search/de/rf-if-and-rfid/balun/3539019?k=cx2074
The 1:1 is optimum for the NIST doubler at the sources, btw.
The 4:1 as an autotransformer 9:1 at the drains. (2*BF862).
Gives you 13 dBm @ 2f for 13 dBm in at 1f upto 40 MHz in.
Still searching a good balun xformer for 800 MHz in.--> 1600 out.
regards, Gerhard
Hi
On Nov 27, 2014, at 5:10 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann dk4xp@arcor.de wrote:
Am 27.11.2014 um 23:30 schrieb Bob Camp:
Hi
Finding the RF transformer parts is still a bit of a challenge.
No. These work quite good for me:
CX2074 4:1 CT
CX2147 1:1 CT
To get back to the original post:
Which Fair-Rite cores listed on Mouser can be used for making transformers?
There are a variety of people making pre-wound parts.
Bob
< http://www.digikey.de/product-search/de/rf-if-and-rfid/balun/3539019?k=cx2074 >
The 1:1 is optimum for the NIST doubler at the sources, btw.
The 4:1 as an autotransformer 9:1 at the drains. (2*BF862).
Gives you 13 dBm @ 2f for 13 dBm in at 1f upto 40 MHz in.
Still searching a good balun xformer for 800 MHz in.--> 1600 out.
regards, Gerhard
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and follow the instructions there.
On 11/27/14, 3:10 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
Am 27.11.2014 um 23:30 schrieb Bob Camp:
Hi
Finding the RF transformer parts is still a bit of a challenge.
No. These work quite good for me:
CX2074 4:1 CT
CX2147 1:1 CT
<
http://www.digikey.de/product-search/de/rf-if-and-rfid/balun/3539019?k=cx2074
The 1:1 is optimum for the NIST doubler at the sources, btw.
The 4:1 as an autotransformer 9:1 at the drains. (2*BF862).
Gives you 13 dBm @ 2f for 13 dBm in at 1f upto 40 MHz in.
Still searching a good balun xformer for 800 MHz in.--> 1600 out.
Analog Devices seems to use these for their various application circuits
Up to 3 GHz is the Mini-Circuits TC1-1-13.
From 3 GHz to 4 GHz is the Johanson Technology
3600BL14M050.
From 4.9 GHz to 6 GHz is the Johanson Technology
5400BL15B050.
43 binocular core: 2843002402, 14 cents qty 1 at Mouser.
77 binocular core: 2873000202, 59 cents qty 1 at Newark.
43 material toroid: 5943000201, 12 cents qty 1 at Mouser.
Clifton Labs has good examples and measurements on transformers wound on
these and other cores.
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
To get back to the original post:
Which Fair-Rite cores listed on Mouser can be used for making transformers?