At 10:16 AM 4/8/00 EDT, "Charles Monroe" fastenuf4me@hotmail.com wrote:

I don't like that idea at all, for the same reasons that have already been
mentioned in this thread.  While I don't see it as an explosion safety
hazard, I do see it an opportunity to make a mess out of your bilge.

I've enjoyed reading this thread, since we are in the process of plumbing up
the fuel fills and vents in the two 500 gallon bulk tanks on Doulos I.  Each
tank will have a single fill pipe with a two inch inside diameter.  It will
be straight and terminate near the bottom of the tank, such that the tank
can be easily dipped with a straight dip stick.  Each tank will have two
vents, one port and one starboard.  The vents are three quarters of an inch
inside diameter.

The fill will protrude about three inches above deck level, and will have
about five feet of head measured from the fill point down to the top of the
tank.  The vents are a little more interesting.  If one tank is not full,
the other tank will vent into the not full tank.  If both tanks are full,
then the vent will be up and out.  I have not yet decided where to terminate
the vent lines, but it will not be in the bilge, and it will not be
overboard.  It will either be along side of the pilot house, where a spill
will be easily retained on the deck; or else it will be on top of the pilot
house.

As I've said before in previous threads, the vent lines will have desiccant
filters on them.  This will eliminate the condensation of water inside of
the tanks.  But the filters will be easily removable for fueling operations,
should I determine later that needs to be done.  The termination of the vent
lines will be higher than the fill tube.  I don't know if that will become a
problem or not.  I know it works very will for all our land based systems;
but then I've noticed that is not the norm for small boat applications.
(Small being defined as less than 100 tons or so.)  If anyone has any
experiences that might help me understand that, then please post them either
publicly or privately to me.

For those who have not caught it, the fill tube is also a bit unique in that
it penetrates the top of the tank but terminates near the bottom of the
tank.  That is intended to prevent foaming, since I'd like to be able to
take the fuel as fast as they can give it to me.  (Not quite as fast as the
4000 gallons per minute of a destroyer that I recently toured.)  While this
does not seem to be a common design for fuel tanks, it is a common design
for hydraulic tanks to prevent foaming; so it should also work nicely for
our fuel tank.  I'd also like some comments on that, should anyone have any;
since I've not yet committed that design such that it cannot yet be changed.

I'm about to go to Spain on business in a few days.  The schedule is very
flexible due to the uncertainties that are inherent in my business; but the
tickets are currently cut to fly out Friday.  If anyone sends me anything
while I'm gone, it will be saved for me to answer when I get back.

BTW:  We are also about done with the dingy for Doulos I.  It is a very
beautiful 22 foot dory.  It was pretty easy to slap together quickly, so
that we will probably put this one into other service and build another
later to use as a dingy.  That is another advantage of a multihull:  You
have plenty of deck space to accommodate a reasonably sized tender or dingy.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
::
Paul and Cindy Kruse      ::  KJV Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you,
165 South Kenneth Court    ::  my peace I give unto you:
Merritt Island, FL  32952  ::  not as the world giveth, give I unto you.
E-mail:  plkruse@iu.net    ::  Let not your heart be troubled,
407-453-6206              ::  neither let it be afraid.
::
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Paul,

I've got a couple of thoughts on your system:

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Kruse plkruse@iu.net

pilot

To me, the logical location for the vents would be right next to the fill.
That way, whoever is manning the nozzle is the first to know if something
goes amiss. This would also allow you to build in one containment (per tank)
to handle any spills or splashes.

It probably will be necessary since commercial fueling is done at a rate of
60 to 180 gallons per minute.

a

I believe that high vents are intended to dissipate fumes thereby lessening
the fire hazard.

that

That should at least restrict most of the foam to the fill pipe. With a fill
pipe the length you describe it's important to stick to your plan of having
the pipe be straight since even one bend can drastically reduce the speed
that you can take on fuel (usually manifested by the person holding the
nozzle getting a diesel bath). Another thing to consider would be setting up
the system so that you can "Cam-Lok" the delivery nozzle to your fill pipe.
It's almost universal for workboats here in Washington but you probably
should ask around the commercial fuel docks in your area to find out what
they are set up to accommodate.

Enjoy your trip!

Hazwoperly yours,

Alex

P.S. If Charlie Sims reads this, Hazwoper refers to a training course in
hazardous materials and the spillage thereof.

Some of the listees might be interested in the fuel system I put on Que
Linda, my recently completed Seaton trawler.

I have a single point fuel fill ending at a 2" npt pipe.  It is normally
terminated with a 2" male camlock fitting and a camlock cap.  I can quickly
remove the male fitting and replace it with either a 2" female camlock
fitting or either a male or female 1.5" camlock fitting, with appropriate
bushings..  Said fuel fill line goes to a manifold with exits to each of the
three fuel tanks.  Each tank has a gauge next to the manifold.  There is a
ball valve shutoff between the fill line and the manifold, as well as ball
valves between the manifold and each tank.

The two aft wing tanks are commonly vented to a 1.5" pipe fitting next to
the fill fitting.  The forward tank vent goes to a similar pipe fitting near
the bow.

When filling, I insert a hose nipple in each of the two vents, and a short
piece of hose inserted into a five gallon bucket.  The fuel supply is
camlocked to the inlet piping.  The fuel supply is turned on.  Then I open
the valve to the manifold and monitor the gauges while someone else monitors
the vent buckets.  When the tank gauges read full, or the vent bucket
monitors start yelling, I turn off the manifold valves to the tank that is
full. When all tanks are full, I turn off the fill inlet valve.  The fuel
supply person turns off the supply, I turn the manifold valves back on to
drain the hose, and finally the fuel supply line is disconnected.

If I am forced to take on small quantities of fuel, I can insert a normal
.5" to 1" fuel nozzle into the 2" fill pipe, and take on fuel at 10-15 gpm,
rather than the 50 gpm for which my system is designed.

Hal
www.halwyman.com/quelinda.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Hirsekorn" alexh@gte.net
To: "Trawler World List" trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 5:27 PM
Subject: TWL: Re: Re: Fuel Vents

spill

tank)

of

become

systems;

lessening

fill

having

up

pipe.

Hi Hal,

This sounds like an outstanding system, very well thought out! I'm curious
about a couple of specifics on the design and operation.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hal Wyman hal@halwyman.com

Have you been able to establish how common it is for fuel docks to have
fittings on hand? Do you plan to carry a supply of fittings to adapt the
ill-prepared docks to your set-up? My guess is that the commercial docks
will be set up for you but the "retail" docks might not.

That size seems about right to me, but I wonder how it was determined;
Educated guess? Normal practices? AYBC standards?

Do you plan for ships crew to stand deck watch or are you counting on fuel
delivery people for that?

On a completely unrelated note: How did your shakedown cruise go?

Curiously yours,

Alex

[camlock]

I surveyed the fuel docks in Seattle.  The two fuel docks in Ballard have
big hoses with camlock fittings, as does Shilshole.  They are all either
1.5" or 2", and some are male and some female.  The dock in Lake Union next
to the Fremont Bridge does not.  I plan to go to commercial docks as they
are used to giving discounts for quantity.  When I checked fuel prices prior
to filling (2600 gallons) I found prices ranging from $1.42 for one gallon
to $0.92 for over 2000 gallons.  The fuel dealer at the dock at Fisherman's
terminal wanted to know if I was commercial or yacht.  When I asked why, he
said he gives bigger discounts to commercial boats.  I didn't go there.

to

Educated guess by Bud LeMieux of Northern Marine, who built a whole lot of
Delta 70' yachts.

Ships crew.  One person can easily see both buckets.

The good news is that the weather was perfect, the straits were calm both
out to Barkley Sound and coming back.  That's also the bad news, as we were
hoping to get some rough water experience.  The worst problem we had was
that the main engine hydraulic pump clutch started slipping and we had to
run the generator pump to operate the bow thruster coming through the locks.
We also discovered after a toilet blocked up that some idiot had put one-way
check valves in the black water lines.  We're taking those out.

Hal
www.halwyman.com/quelinda.htm