Re: T&T: plz vote on the diesel
I am hoping for a vote on the diesel engines you all prefer. Lehman, Cat,
Volvo, Detroit, others?
While this tends to be an unpopular position on a forum like this, I would
strongly advise you to avoid a boat with an FL120 in it unless the boat is
perfect for you in every other way.. Not that FL120s don't work or run
reliably for a long time. But they are inefficient, noisy, vibrate a lot, are
WAY overweight for the power they produce, they pollute like hell,
particularly when cold, and compared to newer engines are ridiculously
demanding in terms of service and maintenance. They were great in 1950 when
the engine was designed and manufactured by Ford of England. But it ain't 1950
anymore and these engines are suitable today only as museum displays of the
Great Industrial Age of the 1900s. And before someone accuses me of not
knowing whereof I speak, we have been living with two FL120s for the past
twelve years.
Luggers are great engines. They tend to be based on John Deeres but they use
some Japanese and German base engines, too. Cats are great although there are
a couple of models that have less than stellar reputations. Detroits are very
reliable but like the Ford Lehman, they are Jurassic engines. Deafening, most
of them, and very inefficient when it comes to fuel use (which makes sense
since they are two-cycle). It can sometimes be hard to find an experienced
Detroit mechanic in some areas.
John Deeres are supposed to be very good. Cummins are good. Perkins are
like the Fords--- great in their day, their day is long gone. I don't know
much of anything about the Japanese brands like Yanmar, Hino, etc. Hinos,
which were popular in a number of Bayliner models for quite awhile, are said
to be very good engines. I don't know how they are with regards to parts
these days.
Volvos are very good engines although parts are said to be very pricey.
My own preference list would be Luggers at the top, followed by Cat, John
Deere, and Cummins, then Volvo. Lehmans, Perkins, and Detroits would not be
on my list at all although if a boat was absolutely perfect in every respect
but had FL120s, I would accept those engines albeit reluctantly.
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
My new in 1996 John Deere (4039DFM, natural 80hp) has accumulated 7000 hours
with little trouble. Belts, hoses, alternator, fuel lift pump, raw water
pump, coolant circulation pump, and injectors, once. Uses 1 quart of oil in
200 hours (Shell Rotella-T synthetic, 8 quarts), the same as it did after
break-in. No smoke. Starts in 1/2 second of cranking, every time. Count
me a John Deere fan.
Luggers are great engines. The smaller ones are based on the Deere blocks,
which are bulletproof. But Deeres cost less for the same engine ($2000 less
for mine in 1996), and have a much larger parts distribution network. And
Deere has a long-standing policy of supporting their engines long after the
accountants would yell , "stop".
Cummins are a good, reliable brand. They supposedly made an 80 hp 4-cyl
natural at one time, but I couldn't get a dealer to admit to it in 1996.
The 6B series is usualy found turboed at around 210hp, too much for smaller
trawlers. The natural version is around 130hp, rarely found in
trawler-yachts, but would be a good choice.
I once helped a sailor rebuild his ancient 30 hp Volvo saltwater pump in the
Bahamas, though it clearly needed replacement. He said a new replacement
pump was $700. At the time, my Yanmar 34hp waterpump cost $170; this was in
1988. I don't think Volvo has changed their parts pricing policy since.
I agree with Marin, mostly. He's talking about the old 2-stroke Detroit
diesels, noisy, leaky, smokey, and fuel inefficient. Modern 4-stroke
Detroits are a different matter, but you won't likely find them in older
trawler-yachts. The old Perkins are OK if not turbo-charged., but not
great. Like Detroits, they have a modern line, but again, you are unlikely
to encounter them. Ford Lehmans are dinosaurs, but the 135's are better
dinosaurs than the 120's. On the other hand, support for the Lehman's is
superb through American Diesel.
Mark Richter, M.E.
"Winnie the Pooh", Ortona, FL on the Okeechbee Waterway
Mark's Mobile Marine
As important to me as brand of the engine (the top four all seem to be
reliable to me) is that I prefer a naturally aspirated engine. Not only are
the turbo and aftercoolers somewhat prone to problems, you are also attempting
to squeeze out more HP from a NA engine. By throttling back the HP, I feel it
leads to longevity. Just my 2c's worth!
Dave
So why do you think your position is usually unpopular? Maybe because it's
incorrect?
There are thousands of Lehmans out there that are loved by their owners. I
have a Lehman 135 and have take Bob Smith's diesel class, where we took a
Lehman 120 apart in class, then put it back together, rolled it out in the
parking lot then started it up with a fresh water supply and small tank of
diesel. They are bulletproof, easy to work on, inexpensive to maintain, very
reliable and last darned near forever. Mine at around 5000 hours is just
getting broken in; 15,000 hours is not unheard of.
My Lehman 135 pushes my Krogen 42 at about 7 knots at 4 nautical MPG. That's
pretty efficient! Of course the boat determines efficiency as much as the
engine. My boat and engine are perfectly matched up. The noise level is not
bad at all, and a lot depends on the engine room insulation and how well the
hatches are sealed. A tiny opening in an engine room hatch will allow an
amazing amount of noise into the cabin! There is very little vibration,
almost unnoticeable unless you are trying to notice it.
Sure, really new diesels run cleaner, via twice the RPMs (twice the wear),
computer chips (in a saltwater environment) that are a lot more prone to
fail than a good old normally aspirated Lehman, turbos (another high speed,
close tolerance part that's expensive and prone to failure).
Maintenance? Keep the fuel, oil and air clean. Oil changes are once a year
or every 100 hours with light use, every 200 hours with heavy use. Oil and
filters are easy to change. Heat exchangers easy to clean/inspect/change.
Air cleaner just needs to be washed and re-oiled every year or two. Raw
water impeller change annually or every 200 hours. Valve clearance, check
and adjust every 500-1000 hours. Thermostat, change every 1200 hours or 3
years. Exhaust elbow, check every 2000 hours. Replace transmission cooler,
every 2000 hours. Replace oil cooler, every 2700 hours.
The list goes on. Of course, Marin's boat has two Lehman 120's, so he knows
what he's talking about. So I guess his boat is a museum display of the
great industrial age and not suitable for cruising. Any other diesel is
better than his. (???)
Me, I'll stick to old school, sturdy and reliable. For me, the Lehman was a
prime benefit of the boat when I bought it.
Keith
I'm still hot. It just comes in flashes.
-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+keith=anastasia3.com@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+keith=anastasia3.com@lists.samurai.c
om] On Behalf Of Faure, Marin
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 6:37 PM
To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: T&T: plz vote on the diesel
I am hoping for a vote on the diesel engines you all prefer. Lehman,
Cat,
Volvo, Detroit, others?
While this tends to be an unpopular position on a forum like this, I would
strongly advise you to avoid a boat with an FL120 in it unless the boat is
perfect for you in every other way.. Not that FL120s don't work or run
reliably for a long time. But they are inefficient, noisy, vibrate a lot,
are WAY overweight for the power they produce, they pollute like hell,
particularly when cold, and compared to newer engines are ridiculously
demanding in terms of service and maintenance. They were great in 1950 when
the engine was designed and manufactured by Ford of England. But it ain't
1950 anymore and these engines are suitable today only as museum displays of
the Great Industrial Age of the 1900s. And before someone accuses me of not
knowing whereof I speak, we have been living with two FL120s for the past
twelve years.
Luggers are great engines. They tend to be based on John Deeres but they
use some Japanese and German base engines, too. Cats are great although
there are a couple of models that have less than stellar reputations.
Detroits are very reliable but like the Ford Lehman, they are Jurassic
engines. Deafening, most of them, and very inefficient when it comes to
fuel use (which makes sense since they are two-cycle). It can sometimes be
hard to find an experienced Detroit mechanic in some areas.
John Deeres are supposed to be very good. Cummins are good. Perkins are
like the Fords--- great in their day, their day is long gone. I don't know
much of anything about the Japanese brands like Yanmar, Hino, etc. Hinos,
which were popular in a number of Bayliner models for quite awhile, are said
to be very good engines. I don't know how they are with regards to parts
these days.
Volvos are very good engines although parts are said to be very pricey.
My own preference list would be Luggers at the top, followed by Cat, John
Deere, and Cummins, then Volvo. Lehmans, Perkins, and Detroits would not be
on my list at all although if a boat was absolutely perfect in every respect
but had FL120s, I would accept those engines albeit reluctantly.
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
<SNIP>
I'm incredibly Happy with my "old, noisey, leaky" Detroit. All are accurate
descriptions, but I can work on it myself, don't need a computer geek to
tell me what's wrong and it has NEVER left me stranded. And by the way, not
a lick of smoke. Cold starts to fast crank to full throttle, They purr away
and are incredibly reliable. True, they aren't the quietest in the world,
but on the flybridge, all I can hear is the water splashing on the hull.
Mine are 1979 DD6-71 NA's, 2,000 hours on major overhauls.
I could spend 6 figures in new technology, but why???