Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time

Was just leafing through some journals while doing some

IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210

Seems to tell a lot more... 

Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time codes are now published. Was just leafing through some journals while doing some boring system configuration here... IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210 by Yingsi Liang, Oren Eliezer, Dinesh Rajan, John Lowe "WWVB Time Signal Broadcast Format and Multi Mode Receiver" Seems to tell a lot more... -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time

Was just leafing through some journals while doing some

IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210

Seems to tell a lot more... 

http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2719.pdf /tvb (i5s) > On May 31, 2014, at 1:03 AM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com> wrote: > > Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time > codes are now published. > > Was just leafing through some journals while doing some > boring system configuration here... > > IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210 > by Yingsi Liang, Oren Eliezer, Dinesh Rajan, John Lowe > > "WWVB Time Signal Broadcast Format and Multi Mode Receiver" > > Seems to tell a lot more... > > -- > Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 > "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten > 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in > celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either." > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time

Was just leafing through some journals while doing some

IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210

Seems to tell a lot more...

and here is a more detailed description of a similar signal's demodulation: http://caxapa.ru/thumbs/417284/Engeler_DCF77.pdf On 5/31/2014 1:03 AM, David I. Emery wrote: > Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time > codes are now published. > > Was just leafing through some journals while doing some > boring system configuration here... > > IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210 > by Yingsi Liang, Oren Eliezer, Dinesh Rajan, John Lowe > > "WWVB Time Signal Broadcast Format and Multi Mode Receiver" > > Seems to tell a lot more... >

Hi Well that’s a bit more information. We seem to be missing the deployment schedule on the other new modulation formats. I kind of doubt that the watch and clock guys are going to start the fabs turning out millions of chips until they can test all the formats. …… the 100 bps signals looks interesting …. Not real clear how well it will do with a <30Hz wide crystal filter. Bob On May 31, 2014, at 4:14 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab) <tvb@leapsecond.com> wrote: > http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2719.pdf > > /tvb (i5s) > >> On May 31, 2014, at 1:03 AM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com> wrote: >> >> Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time >> codes are now published. >> >> Was just leafing through some journals while doing some >> boring system configuration here... >> >> IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210 >> by Yingsi Liang, Oren Eliezer, Dinesh Rajan, John Lowe >> >> "WWVB Time Signal Broadcast Format and Multi Mode Receiver" >> >> Seems to tell a lot more... >> >> -- >> Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 >> "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten >> 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in >> celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time codes are 

Was just leafing through some journals while doing some boring 

IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210 by 

Seems to tell a lot more... 

Wonder what the consequences to my Junghans watch will be? - Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 office 908-902-3831 cell -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak (lab) Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2014 4:14 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB paper in May 2014 IEEE communications... http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2719.pdf /tvb (i5s) > On May 31, 2014, at 1:03 AM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com> wrote: > > Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time codes are > now published. > > Was just leafing through some journals while doing some boring > system configuration here... > > IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210 by > Yingsi Liang, Oren Eliezer, Dinesh Rajan, John Lowe > > "WWVB Time Signal Broadcast Format and Multi Mode Receiver" > > Seems to tell a lot more... > > -- > Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, > Mass 02493 "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable > weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the > weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either." > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

Hi I’d say it is a safe bet that they will fiddle the way they do the various modulation formats so that the WWVB wrist watches keep working. It will be interesting to see how they do that with the “fast” modulation. I both want my watch to work and I’d like to see the fast stuff on the air for high(er) resolution timing. Bob On May 31, 2014, at 10:27 AM, Mike Feher <mfeher@eozinc.com> wrote: > Wonder what the consequences to my Junghans watch will be? - Regards - Mike > > Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. > 89 Arnold Blvd. > Howell, NJ, 07731 > 732-886-5960 office > 908-902-3831 cell > > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On > Behalf Of Tom Van Baak (lab) > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2014 4:14 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB paper in May 2014 IEEE communications... > > http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2719.pdf > > /tvb (i5s) > >> On May 31, 2014, at 1:03 AM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com> > wrote: >> >> Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time codes are >> now published. >> >> Was just leafing through some journals while doing some boring >> system configuration here... >> >> IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210 by >> Yingsi Liang, Oren Eliezer, Dinesh Rajan, John Lowe >> >> "WWVB Time Signal Broadcast Format and Multi Mode Receiver" >> >> Seems to tell a lot more... >> >> -- >> Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, >> Mass 02493 "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable >> weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the >> weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't > and is not to be now either." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

At 08:01 AM 5/31/2014, Bob Camp wrote: >Hi > >Well that's a bit more information. We seem to be missing the >deployment schedule on the other new modulation formats. I kind of >doubt that the watch and clock guys are going to start the fabs >turning out millions of chips until they can test all the formats. http://www.eversetclocks.com/press http://www.eversetclocks.com/receivers They claim to have shipped samples back in 2013, with production slated for Q3. I can't find anyone selling them. Is anyone recording or decoding the new phase modulation? If so, what are you using? I'm trying to measure WWVB signal quality with an old radio clock tied to a PC parallel port. Maybe I should ask for a sample of the ES100 or ES200 to compare. More modulation details: http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/upload/NIST-Enhanced-WWVB-Broadcast-Format-1_01-2013-11-06.pdf -- newell N5TNL

Hi They tested the modulation format they now are using back in 2013. If they also tested the other formats that was done for a very brief period of time. I would think that knowing the transmission schedule of the various formats would be an important input into the chip’s design. More or less, you want to put it to sleep when the format you are after is off the air. Bob On May 31, 2014, at 2:22 PM, Scott Newell <newell+timenuts@n5tnl.com> wrote: > At 08:01 AM 5/31/2014, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> Well that's a bit more information. We seem to be missing the deployment schedule on the other new modulation formats. I kind of doubt that the watch and clock guys are going to start the fabs turning out millions of chips until they can test all the formats. > > http://www.eversetclocks.com/press > http://www.eversetclocks.com/receivers > > They claim to have shipped samples back in 2013, with production slated for Q3. I can't find anyone selling them. > > Is anyone recording or decoding the new phase modulation? If so, what are you using? > > I'm trying to measure WWVB signal quality with an old radio clock tied to a PC parallel port. Maybe I should ask for a sample of the ES100 or ES200 to compare. > > More modulation details: > http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/upload/NIST-Enhanced-WWVB-Broadcast-Format-1_01-2013-11-06.pdf > > > -- > newell N5TNL > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

I have been able to consistently receive the WWVB phase-modulated data of what is now being referred to as "Normal Mode" since last summer, using an air-wound coil antenna, multiple op-amp front end, and a PIC microcontroller setup that I originally used for receiving the amplitude-modulated signal. I think that Bob Camp brings up a legitimate issue when he writes "I kind of doubt that the watch and clock guys are going to start the fabs turning out millions of chips until they can test all the formats." One observation has been that data interpretation does not look altogether simple. With the AM scheme, you could easily find the beginning of a minute frame, just by looking for two consecutive markers. With the PSK Normal Mode, each second begins with a 13-bit sync word. Sounds simple enough, but if you see the sync word pattern, don't jump to any conclusions, because the pattern will re-occur sometimes at other places within the same minute frame. It strikes me that when product testers develop test cases, their work is complicated by all of these "special cases" some of which will not actually occur until decades from now. I also wonder if the introduction of new products has been delayed because of the seemingly capricious manner in which changes are made to the broadcast specification. Normally, if portions of a communications protocol are To Be Determined, we see early versions of specifications which formally reserve certain areas or aspects that are subject to change, so that early designers can nonetheless work around them. Who wants to put a trademark on a product that suddenly ceases to operate when the next unpredictable format change occurs? (Can you tell that I might be a little frustrated?) I've noticed that instrument manufacturers typically have quality programs that are useful in establishing the reliability of their products. Such manufacturers may run into a traceability problem in that the NIST's coverage by quality programs apparently doesn't currently extend to the Time and Frequency Division. --Steve On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 8:01 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > Hi > > Well that’s a bit more information. We seem to be missing the deployment > schedule on the other new modulation formats. I kind of doubt that the > watch and clock guys are going to start the fabs turning out millions of > chips until they can test all the formats. > > …… the 100 bps signals looks interesting …. Not real clear how well it > will do with a <30Hz wide crystal filter. > > Bob > > > On May 31, 2014, at 4:14 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab) <tvb@leapsecond.com> > wrote: > > > http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2719.pdf > > > > /tvb (i5s) > > > >> On May 31, 2014, at 1:03 AM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com> > wrote: > >> > >> Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time > >> codes are now published. > >> > >> Was just leafing through some journals while doing some > >> boring system configuration here... > >> > >> IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210 > >> by Yingsi Liang, Oren Eliezer, Dinesh Rajan, John Lowe > >> > >> "WWVB Time Signal Broadcast Format and Multi Mode Receiver" > >> > >> Seems to tell a lot more... > >> > >> -- > >> Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, > Mass 02493 > >> "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten > >> 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted > pole - in > >> celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now > either." > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

Hi We are in a “brave new world” of industry / government interaction. Watching how it plays out with WWVB (through real product) probably will provide a number of people with research topics for years to come. Yes it’s frustrating, a lot of it is as new to them as it is to us. I’m willing to cut them a bit of slack on that basis. Bob On May 31, 2014, at 5:11 PM, Steven Kluck <stevekluck@gmail.com> wrote: > I have been able to consistently receive the WWVB phase-modulated data of > what is now being referred to as "Normal Mode" since last summer, using an > air-wound coil antenna, multiple op-amp front end, and a PIC > microcontroller setup that I originally used for receiving the > amplitude-modulated signal. > > I think that Bob Camp brings up a legitimate issue when he writes "I kind > of doubt that the watch and clock guys are going to start the fabs turning > out millions of chips until they can test all the formats." > > One observation has been that data interpretation does not look altogether > simple. With the AM scheme, you could easily find the beginning of a > minute frame, just by looking for two consecutive markers. With the PSK > Normal Mode, each second begins with a 13-bit sync word. Sounds simple > enough, but if you see the sync word pattern, don't jump to any > conclusions, because the pattern will re-occur sometimes at other places > within the same minute frame. It strikes me that when product testers > develop test cases, their work is complicated by all of these "special > cases" some of which will not actually occur until decades from now. > > I also wonder if the introduction of new products has been delayed because > of the seemingly capricious manner in which changes are made to the > broadcast specification. Normally, if portions of a communications > protocol are To Be Determined, we see early versions of specifications > which formally reserve certain areas or aspects that are subject to change, > so that early designers can nonetheless work around them. Who wants to put > a trademark on a product that suddenly ceases to operate when the next > unpredictable format change occurs? (Can you tell that I might be a little > frustrated?) > > I've noticed that instrument manufacturers typically have quality programs > that are useful in establishing the reliability of their products. Such > manufacturers may run into a traceability problem in that the NIST's > coverage by quality programs apparently doesn't currently extend to the > Time and Frequency Division. --Steve > > > > > > On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 8:01 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Well that’s a bit more information. We seem to be missing the deployment >> schedule on the other new modulation formats. I kind of doubt that the >> watch and clock guys are going to start the fabs turning out millions of >> chips until they can test all the formats. >> >> …… the 100 bps signals looks interesting …. Not real clear how well it >> will do with a <30Hz wide crystal filter. >> >> Bob >> >> >> On May 31, 2014, at 4:14 AM, Tom Van Baak (lab) <tvb@leapsecond.com> >> wrote: >> >>> http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2719.pdf >>> >>> /tvb (i5s) >>> >>>> On May 31, 2014, at 1:03 AM, "David I. Emery" <die@dieconsulting.com> >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well the actual details of the WWVB modulation and time >>>> codes are now published. >>>> >>>> Was just leafing through some journals while doing some >>>> boring system configuration here... >>>> >>>> IEEE Communications Magazine May 2014 has a paper on page 210 >>>> by Yingsi Liang, Oren Eliezer, Dinesh Rajan, John Lowe >>>> >>>> "WWVB Time Signal Broadcast Format and Multi Mode Receiver" >>>> >>>> Seems to tell a lot more... >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, >> Mass 02493 >>>> "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten >>>> 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted >> pole - in >>>> celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now >> either." >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.