Empathy List Archives

B

Brucekareen@aol.com

Thu, Jan 27, 2011 12:20 AM

Thanks to some help from Joe Ruggieri, I finally managed to get a pair of
10.000 GHz microwave "brick" oscillators phase-locked to 100 MHz inputs.
These require an input of about 0 dBm at 100 MHz and have an output of about

13 dBm at 10 GHz. To gauge whether or not loop noise would interfere
with using these to compare 10 MHz oscillators, I assembled the following test
setup as I have not yet constructed the required 10 MHz to 100 MHz
multipliers.

Both 10 GHz microwave bricks were driven through a splitter from an HP
signal generator locked to 100 MHz. The 10 GHz output of one brick was routed
through an HP X885A phase-shifter equipped with WG/coax adapters and on to
one input of an Anaren hybrid combiner. The output of the other brick was
routed through a 0-10 dB SMA attenuator then on to the combiner. The
reject side of the combiner was terminated. The main combiner output was
routed through a 10 dB attenuator to a Systron-Donner coaxial detector. The DC
output of the detector was monitored with a digital voltmeter.

First the phase shifter and attenuator were adjusted to cause the two
sources to arrive at the combiner with equal amplitudes and 180 degrees out of
phase and produce a null at the detector output. I measured as little as
0.01 millivolt on the DVM at the null point. Then the phase-shifter was
adjusted to rotate the phase 180 degrees to place the combiner inputs in
phase. The detector output was about 128 millivolts.

This experiment seems to confirm the earlier results by Ulrich Bangert and
his friend that noise does not appear to be a problem with this method for
rapid frequency comparison. However it would be convenient to have an
attenuator and phase shifter to null the sources.

Bruce Hunter, KG6OJI.

Thanks to some help from Joe Ruggieri, I finally managed to get a pair of 10.000 GHz microwave "brick" oscillators phase-locked to 100 MHz inputs. These require an input of about 0 dBm at 100 MHz and have an output of about + 13 dBm at 10 GHz. To gauge whether or not loop noise would interfere with using these to compare 10 MHz oscillators, I assembled the following test setup as I have not yet constructed the required 10 MHz to 100 MHz multipliers. Both 10 GHz microwave bricks were driven through a splitter from an HP signal generator locked to 100 MHz. The 10 GHz output of one brick was routed through an HP X885A phase-shifter equipped with WG/coax adapters and on to one input of an Anaren hybrid combiner. The output of the other brick was routed through a 0-10 dB SMA attenuator then on to the combiner. The reject side of the combiner was terminated. The main combiner output was routed through a 10 dB attenuator to a Systron-Donner coaxial detector. The DC output of the detector was monitored with a digital voltmeter. First the phase shifter and attenuator were adjusted to cause the two sources to arrive at the combiner with equal amplitudes and 180 degrees out of phase and produce a null at the detector output. I measured as little as 0.01 millivolt on the DVM at the null point. Then the phase-shifter was adjusted to rotate the phase 180 degrees to place the combiner inputs in phase. The detector output was about 128 millivolts. This experiment seems to confirm the earlier results by Ulrich Bangert and his friend that noise does not appear to be a problem with this method for rapid frequency comparison. However it would be convenient to have an attenuator and phase shifter to null the sources. Bruce Hunter, KG6OJI.

RK

Rick Karlquist

Thu, Jan 27, 2011 3:38 AM

Brucekareen@aol.com wrote:

Thanks to some help from Joe Ruggieri, I finally managed to get a pair of
10.000 GHz microwave "brick" oscillators phase-locked to 100 MHz inputs.

This experiment seems to confirm the earlier results by Ulrich Bangert and
his friend that noise does not appear to be a problem with this method for
rapid frequency comparison. However it would be convenient to have an
Bruce Hunter, KG6OJI.

It only really confirms that the method works with bricks, not
that it works in general. The bricks are extemely low noise
in their own right and are locked with a narrow loop that prevents
source noise from degrading them.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

Brucekareen@aol.com wrote: > Thanks to some help from Joe Ruggieri, I finally managed to get a pair of > 10.000 GHz microwave "brick" oscillators phase-locked to 100 MHz inputs. > This experiment seems to confirm the earlier results by Ulrich Bangert and > his friend that noise does not appear to be a problem with this method for > rapid frequency comparison. However it would be convenient to have an > Bruce Hunter, KG6OJI. It only really confirms that the method works with bricks, not that it works in general. The bricks are extemely low noise in their own right and are locked with a narrow loop that prevents source noise from degrading them. Rick Karlquist N6RK

LV

Lester Veenstra

Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:01 AM

Another thought , I have done this with a pair of synth sig gens:

The brik's designs are such that you can typically get them to phase lock at
harmonics of 100 MHz around the nominal. So you should be able to get one
to phase lock at 10.1 or 9.9 GHz, giving you a 100 MHz offset beat note from
the mixer, suitable for analysis by most prosaic test equipment.

On simple way to examine the quality of 10 GHz multiplication is simply to
listen to the 100 MHz beat with a SSB receiver. Another interesting tool is
to put the 100 MHz into an oscope with the sweep synced to the original 100
MHz, or set up as a XY display.

Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM
lester@veenstras.com
m0ycm@veenstras.com
k1ycm@veenstras.com

US Postal Address:
PSC 45 Box 781
APO AE 09468 USA

UK Postal Address:
Dawn Cottage
Norwood, Harrogate
HG3 1SD, UK

Telephones:
Office:     +44-(0)1423-846-385
Home:     +44-(0)1943-880-963
Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654
UK Cell:   +44-(0)7716-298-224
US Cell:   +1-240-425-7335
Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504

This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or
privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by
the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the
intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to
the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution
or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is
prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Brucekareen@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:21 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Update -- Comparing 10 MHz Oscillators at 10 GHz

Thanks to some help from Joe Ruggieri, I finally managed to get a pair of
10.000 GHz microwave "brick" oscillators phase-locked to 100 MHz inputs.
These require an input of about 0 dBm at 100 MHz and have an output of about

13 dBm at 10 GHz. To gauge whether or not loop noise would interfere
with using these to compare 10 MHz oscillators, I assembled the following
test
setup as I have not yet constructed the required 10 MHz to 100 MHz
multipliers.

Both 10 GHz microwave bricks were driven through a splitter from an HP
signal generator locked to 100 MHz. The 10 GHz output of one brick was
routed
through an HP X885A phase-shifter equipped with WG/coax adapters and on to
one input of an Anaren hybrid combiner. The output of the other brick was
routed through a 0-10 dB SMA attenuator then on to the combiner. The
reject side of the combiner was terminated. The main combiner output was
routed through a 10 dB attenuator to a Systron-Donner coaxial detector.
The DC
output of the detector was monitored with a digital voltmeter.

First the phase shifter and attenuator were adjusted to cause the two
sources to arrive at the combiner with equal amplitudes and 180 degrees out
of
phase and produce a null at the detector output. I measured as little as
0.01 millivolt on the DVM at the null point. Then the phase-shifter was
adjusted to rotate the phase 180 degrees to place the combiner inputs in
phase. The detector output was about 128 millivolts.

This experiment seems to confirm the earlier results by Ulrich Bangert and
his friend that noise does not appear to be a problem with this method for
rapid frequency comparison. However it would be convenient to have an
attenuator and phase shifter to null the sources.

Bruce Hunter, KG6OJI.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Another thought , I have done this with a pair of synth sig gens: The brik's designs are such that you can typically get them to phase lock at harmonics of 100 MHz around the nominal. So you should be able to get one to phase lock at 10.1 or 9.9 GHz, giving you a 100 MHz offset beat note from the mixer, suitable for analysis by most prosaic test equipment. On simple way to examine the quality of 10 GHz multiplication is simply to listen to the 100 MHz beat with a SSB receiver. Another interesting tool is to put the 100 MHz into an oscope with the sweep synced to the original 100 MHz, or set up as a XY display. Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM lester@veenstras.com m0ycm@veenstras.com k1ycm@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Brucekareen@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:21 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Update -- Comparing 10 MHz Oscillators at 10 GHz Thanks to some help from Joe Ruggieri, I finally managed to get a pair of 10.000 GHz microwave "brick" oscillators phase-locked to 100 MHz inputs. These require an input of about 0 dBm at 100 MHz and have an output of about + 13 dBm at 10 GHz. To gauge whether or not loop noise would interfere with using these to compare 10 MHz oscillators, I assembled the following test setup as I have not yet constructed the required 10 MHz to 100 MHz multipliers. Both 10 GHz microwave bricks were driven through a splitter from an HP signal generator locked to 100 MHz. The 10 GHz output of one brick was routed through an HP X885A phase-shifter equipped with WG/coax adapters and on to one input of an Anaren hybrid combiner. The output of the other brick was routed through a 0-10 dB SMA attenuator then on to the combiner. The reject side of the combiner was terminated. The main combiner output was routed through a 10 dB attenuator to a Systron-Donner coaxial detector. The DC output of the detector was monitored with a digital voltmeter. First the phase shifter and attenuator were adjusted to cause the two sources to arrive at the combiner with equal amplitudes and 180 degrees out of phase and produce a null at the detector output. I measured as little as 0.01 millivolt on the DVM at the null point. Then the phase-shifter was adjusted to rotate the phase 180 degrees to place the combiner inputs in phase. The detector output was about 128 millivolts. This experiment seems to confirm the earlier results by Ulrich Bangert and his friend that noise does not appear to be a problem with this method for rapid frequency comparison. However it would be convenient to have an attenuator and phase shifter to null the sources. Bruce Hunter, KG6OJI. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

LV

Lester Veenstra

Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:05 AM

For close in phase noise, the kind that is usually of interest, and hardest
to measure, it does work "in general", with the PLL loop bandwidth
limitation noted below for higher frequency noise.

Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM
lester@veenstras.com
m0ycm@veenstras.com
k1ycm@veenstras.com

US Postal Address:
PSC 45 Box 781
APO AE 09468 USA

UK Postal Address:
Dawn Cottage
Norwood, Harrogate
HG3 1SD, UK

Telephones:
Office:     +44-(0)1423-846-385
Home:     +44-(0)1943-880-963
Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654
UK Cell:   +44-(0)7716-298-224
US Cell:   +1-240-425-7335
Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504

This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or
privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by
the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the
intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to
the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution
or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is
prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Rick Karlquist
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:38 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Update -- Comparing 10 MHz Oscillators at 10 GHz

Brucekareen@aol.com wrote:
...........The bricks are extremely low noise
in their own right and are locked with a narrow loop that prevents
source noise from degrading them.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

For close in phase noise, the kind that is usually of interest, and hardest to measure, it does work "in general", with the PLL loop bandwidth limitation noted below for higher frequency noise. Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM lester@veenstras.com m0ycm@veenstras.com k1ycm@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Rick Karlquist Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:38 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Update -- Comparing 10 MHz Oscillators at 10 GHz Brucekareen@aol.com wrote: ...........The bricks are extremely low noise in their own right and are locked with a narrow loop that prevents source noise from degrading them. Rick Karlquist N6RK

BC

Bob Camp

Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:03 PM

Hi

As a first order approximation for phase noise:

Feed them both into a mixer and look at the output on a sound card after
some amplification.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Lester Veenstra
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:05 AM
To: richard@karlquist.com; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Update -- Comparing 10 MHz Oscillators at 10 GHz

For close in phase noise, the kind that is usually of interest, and hardest
to measure, it does work "in general", with the PLL loop bandwidth
limitation noted below for higher frequency noise.

Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM
lester@veenstras.com
m0ycm@veenstras.com
k1ycm@veenstras.com

US Postal Address:
PSC 45 Box 781
APO AE 09468 USA

UK Postal Address:
Dawn Cottage
Norwood, Harrogate
HG3 1SD, UK

Telephones:
Office:     +44-(0)1423-846-385
Home:     +44-(0)1943-880-963
Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654
UK Cell:   +44-(0)7716-298-224
US Cell:   +1-240-425-7335
Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504

This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or
privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by
the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the
intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to
the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution
or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is
prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Rick Karlquist
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:38 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Update -- Comparing 10 MHz Oscillators at 10 GHz

Brucekareen@aol.com wrote:
...........The bricks are extremely low noise
in their own right and are locked with a narrow loop that prevents
source noise from degrading them.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hi As a first order approximation for phase noise: Feed them both into a mixer and look at the output on a sound card after some amplification. Bob -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Lester Veenstra Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:05 AM To: richard@karlquist.com; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Update -- Comparing 10 MHz Oscillators at 10 GHz For close in phase noise, the kind that is usually of interest, and hardest to measure, it does work "in general", with the PLL loop bandwidth limitation noted below for higher frequency noise. Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM lester@veenstras.com m0ycm@veenstras.com k1ycm@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Rick Karlquist Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:38 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Update -- Comparing 10 MHz Oscillators at 10 GHz Brucekareen@aol.com wrote: ...........The bricks are extremely low noise in their own right and are locked with a narrow loop that prevents source noise from degrading them. Rick Karlquist N6RK _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

time-nuts@lists.febo.com

Update -- Comparing 10 MHz Oscillators at 10 GHz