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Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

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Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re: Reference oscillator accuracy)

HM
Hal Murray
Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:30 AM

Jamming Range : Average 40 meters radius
Output Power  : Total 6.5 Watt

ratio : 40/6.5 = 6.15 meters/watt

Isn't received power 1/R-squared?

I think those calculations should be radius-squared/watts

I find it interesting that the products designed as jammers have ranges of
"only" a few 10s of meters while a recent message here said 1/2 mile from a
digital-radio link that was transmitting on 315 MHz.  (aka designed for
something else rather than as a jammer)

Similarly, the Monterey Bay jammer wasn't trying to be a jammer, and it wiped
out a huge area.

--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.

> Jamming Range : Average 40 meters radius > Output Power : Total 6.5 Watt > ratio : 40/6.5 = 6.15 meters/watt Isn't received power 1/R-squared? I think those calculations should be radius-squared/watts I find it interesting that the products designed as jammers have ranges of "only" a few 10s of meters while a recent message here said 1/2 mile from a digital-radio link that was transmitting on 315 MHz. (aka designed for something else rather than as a jammer) Similarly, the Monterey Bay jammer wasn't trying to be a jammer, and it wiped out a huge area. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
DJ
Didier Juges
Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:22 AM

I think the problem with the Monterey Bay jammer was that he was jamming the
DGPS correction signal, not the GPS signal itself. The DGPS correction
signal is sent over the UHF band. Most marine GPS are DGPS because they need
the better resolution it provides, particularly to find buoys and channel
markers in the fog. The DGPS correction signal does not benefit from the
spread-spectrum modulation and associated jamming resistance of the GPS
signal itself.

Didier

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
[mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:30 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re:
Reference oscillator accuracy)

Jamming Range : Average 40 meters radius  Output Power  :

Total 6.5

Watt

ratio : 40/6.5 = 6.15 meters/watt

Isn't received power 1/R-squared?

I think those calculations should be radius-squared/watts

I find it interesting that the products designed as jammers
have ranges of "only" a few 10s of meters while a recent
message here said 1/2 mile from a digital-radio link that was
transmitting on 315 MHz.  (aka designed for something else
rather than as a jammer)

Similarly, the Monterey Bay jammer wasn't trying to be a
jammer, and it wiped out a huge area.

I think the problem with the Monterey Bay jammer was that he was jamming the DGPS correction signal, not the GPS signal itself. The DGPS correction signal is sent over the UHF band. Most marine GPS are DGPS because they need the better resolution it provides, particularly to find buoys and channel markers in the fog. The DGPS correction signal does not benefit from the spread-spectrum modulation and associated jamming resistance of the GPS signal itself. Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:30 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re: > Reference oscillator accuracy) > > > Jamming Range : Average 40 meters radius Output Power : > Total 6.5 > > Watt > > > ratio : 40/6.5 = 6.15 meters/watt > > Isn't received power 1/R-squared? > > I think those calculations should be radius-squared/watts > > > I find it interesting that the products designed as jammers > have ranges of "only" a few 10s of meters while a recent > message here said 1/2 mile from a digital-radio link that was > transmitting on 315 MHz. (aka designed for something else > rather than as a jammer) > > Similarly, the Monterey Bay jammer wasn't trying to be a > jammer, and it wiped out a huge area. >
DI
David I. Emery
Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:30 AM

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 08:22:50PM -0600, Didier Juges wrote:

I think the problem with the Monterey Bay jammer was that he was jamming the
DGPS correction signal, not the GPS signal itself. The DGPS correction
signal is sent over the UHF band. Most marine GPS are DGPS because they need
the better resolution it provides, particularly to find buoys and channel
markers in the fog. The DGPS correction signal does not benefit from the
spread-spectrum modulation and associated jamming resistance of the GPS
signal itself.

That is the first I've heard of a UHF DGPS correction transmission

can you provide a frequency and modulation mode ?    Most I know of are
re purposed LF NDBs or similar transmitters in the 200 to 400 KHz or
so range that transmit a PSK'd carrier with the DGPS data at fairly low
speed on it.

I have heard of cases of wide area GPS outages noted by many

folks with NON DGPS receivers (DGPS receivers  mostly will just indicate
no DGPS available and still show a pretty good position) that were
caused by UHF signals on the L2 frequency... though I am sure there are
incidents of accidental interference to LF or other distribution of
DGPS.

--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 08:22:50PM -0600, Didier Juges wrote: > I think the problem with the Monterey Bay jammer was that he was jamming the > DGPS correction signal, not the GPS signal itself. The DGPS correction > signal is sent over the UHF band. Most marine GPS are DGPS because they need > the better resolution it provides, particularly to find buoys and channel > markers in the fog. The DGPS correction signal does not benefit from the > spread-spectrum modulation and associated jamming resistance of the GPS > signal itself. That is the first I've heard of a UHF DGPS correction transmission can you provide a frequency and modulation mode ? Most I know of are re purposed LF NDBs or similar transmitters in the 200 to 400 KHz or so range that transmit a PSK'd carrier with the DGPS data at fairly low speed on it. I have heard of cases of wide area GPS outages noted by many folks with NON DGPS receivers (DGPS receivers mostly will just indicate no DGPS available and still show a pretty good position) that were caused by UHF signals on the L2 frequency... though I am sure there are incidents of accidental interference to LF or other distribution of DGPS. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."
DJ
Didier Juges
Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:55 AM

I was shooting from the hip, I thought the DGPS signals were sent at UHF,
but maybe not, but that's not the point. The point is that you can
significantly affect DGPS operation without having to jam the GPS signal
itself.

I found a reference saying the Monterey Bay jammer was jamming the DGPS
station, rather than the DGPS signal. I have not found the original article
I was looking for about it, but I think I remember that the boaters and
Coast Guards were the most affected, as you should expect because they rely
on and need the additional accuracy of the DGPS system.

Didier

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
[mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of David I. Emery
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:30 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re:
Reference oscillatoraccuracy)

That is the first I've heard of a UHF DGPS correction 

transmission
can you provide a frequency and modulation mode ?    Most I
know of are
re purposed LF NDBs or similar transmitters in the 200 to 400
KHz or so range that transmit a PSK'd carrier with the DGPS
data at fairly low speed on it.

I have heard of cases of wide area GPS outages noted by 

many folks with NON DGPS receivers (DGPS receivers  mostly
will just indicate no DGPS available and still show a pretty
good position) that were caused by UHF signals on the L2
frequency... though I am sure there are incidents of
accidental interference to LF or other distribution of DGPS.

I was shooting from the hip, I thought the DGPS signals were sent at UHF, but maybe not, but that's not the point. The point is that you can significantly affect DGPS operation without having to jam the GPS signal itself. I found a reference saying the Monterey Bay jammer was jamming the DGPS station, rather than the DGPS signal. I have not found the original article I was looking for about it, but I think I remember that the boaters and Coast Guards were the most affected, as you should expect because they rely on and need the additional accuracy of the DGPS system. Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of David I. Emery > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:30 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re: > Reference oscillatoraccuracy) > > > That is the first I've heard of a UHF DGPS correction > transmission > can you provide a frequency and modulation mode ? Most I > know of are > re purposed LF NDBs or similar transmitters in the 200 to 400 > KHz or so range that transmit a PSK'd carrier with the DGPS > data at fairly low speed on it. > > I have heard of cases of wide area GPS outages noted by > many folks with NON DGPS receivers (DGPS receivers mostly > will just indicate no DGPS available and still show a pretty > good position) that were caused by UHF signals on the L2 > frequency... though I am sure there are incidents of > accidental interference to LF or other distribution of DGPS. >
J
jmfranke
Mon, Nov 16, 2009 3:19 AM

For the marina story, see:
http://www.gpsworld.com/gps/system-challenge/the-hunt-rfi-776

The L1 signal was unintentionally jammed.

John  WA4WDL


From: "Didier Juges" didier@cox.net
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:55 PM
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re:
Referenceoscillatoraccuracy)

I was shooting from the hip, I thought the DGPS signals were sent at UHF,
but maybe not, but that's not the point. The point is that you can
significantly affect DGPS operation without having to jam the GPS signal
itself.

I found a reference saying the Monterey Bay jammer was jamming the DGPS
station, rather than the DGPS signal. I have not found the original
article
I was looking for about it, but I think I remember that the boaters and
Coast Guards were the most affected, as you should expect because they
rely
on and need the additional accuracy of the DGPS system.

Didier

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
[mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of David I. Emery
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:30 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re:
Reference oscillatoraccuracy)

That is the first I've heard of a UHF DGPS correction
transmission
can you provide a frequency and modulation mode ?    Most I
know of are
re purposed LF NDBs or similar transmitters in the 200 to 400
KHz or so range that transmit a PSK'd carrier with the DGPS
data at fairly low speed on it.

I have heard of cases of wide area GPS outages noted by
many folks with NON DGPS receivers (DGPS receivers  mostly
will just indicate no DGPS available and still show a pretty
good position) that were caused by UHF signals on the L2
frequency... though I am sure there are incidents of
accidental interference to LF or other distribution of DGPS.


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For the marina story, see: http://www.gpsworld.com/gps/system-challenge/the-hunt-rfi-776 The L1 signal was unintentionally jammed. John WA4WDL -------------------------------------------------- From: "Didier Juges" <didier@cox.net> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:55 PM To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" <time-nuts@febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re: Referenceoscillatoraccuracy) > I was shooting from the hip, I thought the DGPS signals were sent at UHF, > but maybe not, but that's not the point. The point is that you can > significantly affect DGPS operation without having to jam the GPS signal > itself. > > I found a reference saying the Monterey Bay jammer was jamming the DGPS > station, rather than the DGPS signal. I have not found the original > article > I was looking for about it, but I think I remember that the boaters and > Coast Guards were the most affected, as you should expect because they > rely > on and need the additional accuracy of the DGPS system. > > Didier > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of David I. Emery >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:30 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re: >> Reference oscillatoraccuracy) >> >> >> That is the first I've heard of a UHF DGPS correction >> transmission >> can you provide a frequency and modulation mode ? Most I >> know of are >> re purposed LF NDBs or similar transmitters in the 200 to 400 >> KHz or so range that transmit a PSK'd carrier with the DGPS >> data at fairly low speed on it. >> >> I have heard of cases of wide area GPS outages noted by >> many folks with NON DGPS receivers (DGPS receivers mostly >> will just indicate no DGPS available and still show a pretty >> good position) that were caused by UHF signals on the L2 >> frequency... though I am sure there are incidents of >> accidental interference to LF or other distribution of DGPS. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >
B
bg@lysator.liu.se
Mon, Nov 16, 2009 6:19 AM

With SA off, the difference between marine DGPS and stand alone GPS is not
that significant. If my memory serves me right the Monterey jammer did jam
at L1.

--

Björn

I think the problem with the Monterey Bay jammer was that he was jamming
the
DGPS correction signal, not the GPS signal itself. The DGPS correction
signal is sent over the UHF band. Most marine GPS are DGPS because they
need
the better resolution it provides, particularly to find buoys and channel
markers in the fog. The DGPS correction signal does not benefit from the
spread-spectrum modulation and associated jamming resistance of the GPS
signal itself.

Didier

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
[mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:30 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re:
Reference oscillator accuracy)

Jamming Range : Average 40 meters radius  Output Power  :

Total 6.5

Watt

ratio : 40/6.5 = 6.15 meters/watt

Isn't received power 1/R-squared?

I think those calculations should be radius-squared/watts

I find it interesting that the products designed as jammers
have ranges of "only" a few 10s of meters while a recent
message here said 1/2 mile from a digital-radio link that was
transmitting on 315 MHz.  (aka designed for something else
rather than as a jammer)

Similarly, the Monterey Bay jammer wasn't trying to be a
jammer, and it wiped out a huge area.


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

With SA off, the difference between marine DGPS and stand alone GPS is not that significant. If my memory serves me right the Monterey jammer did jam at L1. -- Björn > I think the problem with the Monterey Bay jammer was that he was jamming > the > DGPS correction signal, not the GPS signal itself. The DGPS correction > signal is sent over the UHF band. Most marine GPS are DGPS because they > need > the better resolution it provides, particularly to find buoys and channel > markers in the fog. The DGPS correction signal does not benefit from the > spread-spectrum modulation and associated jamming resistance of the GPS > signal itself. > > Didier > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:30 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re: >> Reference oscillator accuracy) >> >> > Jamming Range : Average 40 meters radius Output Power : >> Total 6.5 >> > Watt >> >> > ratio : 40/6.5 = 6.15 meters/watt >> >> Isn't received power 1/R-squared? >> >> I think those calculations should be radius-squared/watts >> >> >> I find it interesting that the products designed as jammers >> have ranges of "only" a few 10s of meters while a recent >> message here said 1/2 mile from a digital-radio link that was >> transmitting on 315 MHz. (aka designed for something else >> rather than as a jammer) >> >> Similarly, the Monterey Bay jammer wasn't trying to be a >> jammer, and it wiped out a huge area. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >