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PCBs with ceramic substrates

F
fala@gmx.net
Sun, Apr 16, 2017 5:25 PM

Possibly Macor (machinable ceramic) from Corning, or the comparable
Vitronit, which are both glass ceramics.

Comparable to borosilicate glass.
Extremely machinable (HSS or carbide tools, use proper speeds and
coolant), continously stable until 800°C.
No safety concerns or toxic effects. The dust created when machining can
be an irritant.

Available from Corning as standard size maxi slab of 36366 cm.
Price = ?

Quoting Wikipedia for technical data for Macor:

Density: 2.52 g/cm³
Young's modulus [GPa @ 25°C]: 66.9  (FR4 = 21 - 24, Aluminium = 69,
Steel = 200)
Specific stiffness [E6 m²/s²]: 26.55  (Al = 26, Steel = 25 +/- 0.5)
Poisson's Ratio []: 0.29 (FR4 = 0.118 - 0.136, Al = 0.32, Steel = 0.27-0.31)
Thermal conductivity [W/(mK)]: 1.46  (FR4 ~ 0.3 - 1, Al ~ 300, Steel ~
15-50)
compressive strenght [MPa]: ~350
Electrical resistivity [Ohm
cm]: 1 E17 (FR4 = 1 E14, PTFE = 1 E23 to 1 E25)
Coefficient of thermal expansion [E-6 m/(m*K)]: 9.3 (FR4 ~ 13 , Copper =
16.6)

Firat

Am 16.04.2017 um 13:08 schrieb John Devereux:

Hi Chuck

But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of those
tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us
with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing
properties if they are not available as PCBs.

There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are
limiting for "metrology" use.

John

Possibly Macor (machinable ceramic) from Corning, or the comparable Vitronit, which are both glass ceramics. Comparable to borosilicate glass. Extremely machinable (HSS or carbide tools, use proper speeds and coolant), continously stable until 800°C. No safety concerns or toxic effects. The dust created when machining can be an irritant. Available from Corning as standard size maxi slab of 36*36*6 cm. Price = ? Quoting Wikipedia for technical data for Macor: --- Density: 2.52 g/cm³ Young's modulus [GPa @ 25°C]: 66.9 (FR4 = 21 - 24, Aluminium = 69, Steel = 200) Specific stiffness [E6 m²/s²]: 26.55 (Al = 26, Steel = 25 +/- 0.5) Poisson's Ratio []: 0.29 (FR4 = 0.118 - 0.136, Al = 0.32, Steel = 0.27-0.31) Thermal conductivity [W/(m*K)]: 1.46 (FR4 ~ 0.3 - 1, Al ~ 300, Steel ~ 15-50) compressive strenght [MPa]: ~350 Electrical resistivity [Ohm*cm]: 1 E17 (FR4 = 1 E14, PTFE = 1 E23 to 1 E25) Coefficient of thermal expansion [E-6 m/(m*K)]: 9.3 (FR4 ~ 13 , Copper = 16.6) Firat Am 16.04.2017 um 13:08 schrieb John Devereux: > > Hi Chuck > > But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of *those* > tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us > with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing > properties if they are not available as PCBs. > > There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are > limiting for "metrology" use. > > John
SS
Scott Stobbe
Sun, Apr 16, 2017 7:03 PM

As a practical aside regarding surface resistance, ignoring guard
amplifiers and guard traces, the historic solution is to point to point
wire in air. With some designs using Teflon standoffs for a more rigid
approach. Some of this can still be seen today, your smoke-detector likely
has a one-layer phenonlic PCB with the sense pin of a DIP package IC bent
up off board and point-point wired in air to the Ion chamber.

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM, fala@gmx.net fala@gmx.net wrote:

Possibly Macor (machinable ceramic) from Corning, or the comparable
Vitronit, which are both glass ceramics.

Comparable to borosilicate glass.
Extremely machinable (HSS or carbide tools, use proper speeds and
coolant), continously stable until 800°C.
No safety concerns or toxic effects. The dust created when machining can
be an irritant.

Available from Corning as standard size maxi slab of 36366 cm.
Price = ?

Quoting Wikipedia for technical data for Macor:

Density: 2.52 g/cm³
Young's modulus [GPa @ 25°C]: 66.9  (FR4 = 21 - 24, Aluminium = 69, Steel
= 200)
Specific stiffness [E6 m²/s²]: 26.55  (Al = 26, Steel = 25 +/- 0.5)
Poisson's Ratio []: 0.29 (FR4 = 0.118 - 0.136, Al = 0.32, Steel =
0.27-0.31)
Thermal conductivity [W/(mK)]: 1.46  (FR4 ~ 0.3 - 1, Al ~ 300, Steel ~
15-50)
compressive strenght [MPa]: ~350
Electrical resistivity [Ohm
cm]: 1 E17 (FR4 = 1 E14, PTFE = 1 E23 to 1 E25)
Coefficient of thermal expansion [E-6 m/(m*K)]: 9.3 (FR4 ~ 13 , Copper =
16.6)

Firat

Am 16.04.2017 um 13:08 schrieb John Devereux:

Hi Chuck

But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of those
tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us
with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing
properties if they are not available as PCBs.

There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are
limiting for "metrology" use.

John


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ailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
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As a practical aside regarding surface resistance, ignoring guard amplifiers and guard traces, the historic solution is to point to point wire in air. With some designs using Teflon standoffs for a more rigid approach. Some of this can still be seen today, your smoke-detector likely has a one-layer phenonlic PCB with the sense pin of a DIP package IC bent up off board and point-point wired in air to the Ion chamber. On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM, fala@gmx.net <fala@gmx.net> wrote: > Possibly Macor (machinable ceramic) from Corning, or the comparable > Vitronit, which are both glass ceramics. > > Comparable to borosilicate glass. > Extremely machinable (HSS or carbide tools, use proper speeds and > coolant), continously stable until 800°C. > No safety concerns or toxic effects. The dust created when machining can > be an irritant. > > Available from Corning as standard size maxi slab of 36*36*6 cm. > Price = ? > > Quoting Wikipedia for technical data for Macor: > --- > Density: 2.52 g/cm³ > Young's modulus [GPa @ 25°C]: 66.9 (FR4 = 21 - 24, Aluminium = 69, Steel > = 200) > Specific stiffness [E6 m²/s²]: 26.55 (Al = 26, Steel = 25 +/- 0.5) > Poisson's Ratio []: 0.29 (FR4 = 0.118 - 0.136, Al = 0.32, Steel = > 0.27-0.31) > Thermal conductivity [W/(m*K)]: 1.46 (FR4 ~ 0.3 - 1, Al ~ 300, Steel ~ > 15-50) > compressive strenght [MPa]: ~350 > Electrical resistivity [Ohm*cm]: 1 E17 (FR4 = 1 E14, PTFE = 1 E23 to 1 E25) > Coefficient of thermal expansion [E-6 m/(m*K)]: 9.3 (FR4 ~ 13 , Copper = > 16.6) > > Firat > > > Am 16.04.2017 um 13:08 schrieb John Devereux: > >> >> Hi Chuck >> >> But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of *those* >> tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us >> with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing >> properties if they are not available as PCBs. >> >> There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are >> limiting for "metrology" use. >> >> John >> > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m > ailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >
AB
Andy Bardagjy
Mon, Apr 17, 2017 12:16 AM

Synthetic sapphire has come down in price quite a bit, a 25mm dia 5mm thick
sapphire window can be had for just $71

https://www.thorlabs.com/thorproduct.cfm?partnumber=WG31050

Andy ◉ Bardagjy.com http://bardagjy.com/ ◉ +1-404-964-1641

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Scott Stobbe scott.j.stobbe@gmail.com
wrote:

As a practical aside regarding surface resistance, ignoring guard
amplifiers and guard traces, the historic solution is to point to point
wire in air. With some designs using Teflon standoffs for a more rigid
approach. Some of this can still be seen today, your smoke-detector likely
has a one-layer phenonlic PCB with the sense pin of a DIP package IC bent
up off board and point-point wired in air to the Ion chamber.

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM, fala@gmx.net fala@gmx.net wrote:

Possibly Macor (machinable ceramic) from Corning, or the comparable
Vitronit, which are both glass ceramics.

Comparable to borosilicate glass.
Extremely machinable (HSS or carbide tools, use proper speeds and
coolant), continously stable until 800°C.
No safety concerns or toxic effects. The dust created when machining can
be an irritant.

Available from Corning as standard size maxi slab of 36366 cm.
Price = ?

Quoting Wikipedia for technical data for Macor:

Density: 2.52 g/cm³
Young's modulus [GPa @ 25°C]: 66.9  (FR4 = 21 - 24, Aluminium = 69, Steel
= 200)
Specific stiffness [E6 m²/s²]: 26.55  (Al = 26, Steel = 25 +/- 0.5)
Poisson's Ratio []: 0.29 (FR4 = 0.118 - 0.136, Al = 0.32, Steel =
0.27-0.31)
Thermal conductivity [W/(mK)]: 1.46  (FR4 ~ 0.3 - 1, Al ~ 300, Steel ~
15-50)
compressive strenght [MPa]: ~350
Electrical resistivity [Ohm
cm]: 1 E17 (FR4 = 1 E14, PTFE = 1 E23 to 1

E25)

Coefficient of thermal expansion [E-6 m/(m*K)]: 9.3 (FR4 ~ 13 , Copper =
16.6)

Firat

Am 16.04.2017 um 13:08 schrieb John Devereux:

Hi Chuck

But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of those
tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us
with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing
properties if they are not available as PCBs.

There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are
limiting for "metrology" use.

John


volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
ailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Synthetic sapphire has come down in price quite a bit, a 25mm dia 5mm thick sapphire window can be had for just $71 https://www.thorlabs.com/thorproduct.cfm?partnumber=WG31050 Andy ◉ Bardagjy.com <http://bardagjy.com/> ◉ +1-404-964-1641 On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Scott Stobbe <scott.j.stobbe@gmail.com> wrote: > As a practical aside regarding surface resistance, ignoring guard > amplifiers and guard traces, the historic solution is to point to point > wire in air. With some designs using Teflon standoffs for a more rigid > approach. Some of this can still be seen today, your smoke-detector likely > has a one-layer phenonlic PCB with the sense pin of a DIP package IC bent > up off board and point-point wired in air to the Ion chamber. > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM, fala@gmx.net <fala@gmx.net> wrote: > > > Possibly Macor (machinable ceramic) from Corning, or the comparable > > Vitronit, which are both glass ceramics. > > > > Comparable to borosilicate glass. > > Extremely machinable (HSS or carbide tools, use proper speeds and > > coolant), continously stable until 800°C. > > No safety concerns or toxic effects. The dust created when machining can > > be an irritant. > > > > Available from Corning as standard size maxi slab of 36*36*6 cm. > > Price = ? > > > > Quoting Wikipedia for technical data for Macor: > > --- > > Density: 2.52 g/cm³ > > Young's modulus [GPa @ 25°C]: 66.9 (FR4 = 21 - 24, Aluminium = 69, Steel > > = 200) > > Specific stiffness [E6 m²/s²]: 26.55 (Al = 26, Steel = 25 +/- 0.5) > > Poisson's Ratio []: 0.29 (FR4 = 0.118 - 0.136, Al = 0.32, Steel = > > 0.27-0.31) > > Thermal conductivity [W/(m*K)]: 1.46 (FR4 ~ 0.3 - 1, Al ~ 300, Steel ~ > > 15-50) > > compressive strenght [MPa]: ~350 > > Electrical resistivity [Ohm*cm]: 1 E17 (FR4 = 1 E14, PTFE = 1 E23 to 1 > E25) > > Coefficient of thermal expansion [E-6 m/(m*K)]: 9.3 (FR4 ~ 13 , Copper = > > 16.6) > > > > Firat > > > > > > Am 16.04.2017 um 13:08 schrieb John Devereux: > > > >> > >> Hi Chuck > >> > >> But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of *those* > >> tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us > >> with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing > >> properties if they are not available as PCBs. > >> > >> There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are > >> limiting for "metrology" use. > >> > >> John > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m > > ailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >
D
David
Mon, Apr 17, 2017 1:47 AM

FR4 has problems with consistency.  Samples can have problems with
hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:07 +0100, you wrote:

Hi Chuck

But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of those
tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us
with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing
properties if they are not available as PCBs.

There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are
limiting for "metrology" use.

John

FR4 has problems with consistency. Samples can have problems with hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity. On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:07 +0100, you wrote: >Hi Chuck > >But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of *those* >tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us >with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing >properties if they are not available as PCBs. > >There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are >limiting for "metrology" use. > >John
CC
cheater00 cheater00
Mon, Apr 17, 2017 1:54 AM

Are conformal coatings the right way to handle this?

I understand there are kinds of FR4 and G10 that don't have hook. What does
one do about hook - how are those substrates improved? How does hook
manifest in circuits?

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:48 David, davidwhess@gmail.com wrote:

FR4 has problems with consistency.  Samples can have problems with
hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:07 +0100, you wrote:

Hi Chuck

But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of those
tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us
with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing
properties if they are not available as PCBs.

There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are
limiting for "metrology" use.

John


volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Are conformal coatings the right way to handle this? I understand there are kinds of FR4 and G10 that don't have hook. What does one do about hook - how are those substrates improved? How does hook manifest in circuits? On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:48 David, <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote: > FR4 has problems with consistency. Samples can have problems with > hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity. > > On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:07 +0100, you wrote: > > >Hi Chuck > > > >But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of *those* > >tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us > >with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing > >properties if they are not available as PCBs. > > > >There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are > >limiting for "metrology" use. > > > >John > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >
BG
Bruce Griffiths
Mon, Apr 17, 2017 2:19 AM

Hook is merely a manifestation of the variation of dielectric constant with frequency.

It affects the frequency response and transient of resistive attenuators by requiring more complex compensation than merely adjusting a trimmer cap to equalise the low frequency and high frequency attenuation. Since the dielectric "constant" (relative permittivity) of all dielectrics is frequency dependent all dielectrics will exhibit hook to some extent. Some PCB substrates like some versions of FR4 and G10 exhibit a significant variation in the dielectric constant from the dc value to a somewhat lower value for frequencies even in he audio range let alone frequencies of several MHz. Achieving a flat frequency response where the dielectric associated with circuit board capacitances exhibits significant hook is a complex task. Circuit board hook even affects the impedance of printed transmission lines (eg stripline, microstrip, CPW etc).

Bruce

 On 17 April 2017 at 13:54 cheater00 cheater00 <cheater00@gmail.com> wrote:

 Are conformal coatings the right way to handle this?

 I understand there are kinds of FR4 and G10 that don't have hook. What does
 one do about hook - how are those substrates improved? How does hook
 manifest in circuits?

 On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:48 David, <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote:
     FR4 has problems with consistency. Samples can have problems with
     hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity.

     On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:07 +0100, you wrote:
         Hi Chuck

         But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of *those*
         tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us
         with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing
         properties if they are not available as PCBs.

         There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are
         limiting for "metrology" use.

         John

         _______________________________________________
         volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
         To unsubscribe, go to
         https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
         and follow the instructions there.
     _______________________________________________
     volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
     To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
     and follow the instructions there.
Hook is merely a manifestation of the variation of dielectric constant with frequency. It affects the frequency response and transient of resistive attenuators by requiring more complex compensation than merely adjusting a trimmer cap to equalise the low frequency and high frequency attenuation. Since the dielectric "constant" (relative permittivity) of all dielectrics is frequency dependent all dielectrics will exhibit hook to some extent. Some PCB substrates like some versions of FR4 and G10 exhibit a significant variation in the dielectric constant from the dc value to a somewhat lower value for frequencies even in he audio range let alone frequencies of several MHz. Achieving a flat frequency response where the dielectric associated with circuit board capacitances exhibits significant hook is a complex task. Circuit board hook even affects the impedance of printed transmission lines (eg stripline, microstrip, CPW etc). Bruce > > On 17 April 2017 at 13:54 cheater00 cheater00 <cheater00@gmail.com> wrote: > > Are conformal coatings the right way to handle this? > > I understand there are kinds of FR4 and G10 that don't have hook. What does > one do about hook - how are those substrates improved? How does hook > manifest in circuits? > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:48 David, <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > FR4 has problems with consistency. Samples can have problems with > > hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity. > > > > On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:07 +0100, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chuck > > > > > > But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of *those* > > > tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us > > > with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing > > > properties if they are not available as PCBs. > > > > > > There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are > > > limiting for "metrology" use. > > > > > > John > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > >
D
David
Mon, Apr 17, 2017 2:30 AM

Conformal coating might help with sensitivity to humidity but I would
not count on it.

Hook corrupts the AC response and settling time in high impedance
circuits.  I did not know it at the time, but I suspect I have seen it
manifest as mysterious linearity errors in integrating converters.

The way to prevent hook is to use a substrate which does not suffer
from it.  For FR4, this could include testing to qualify suppliers.
Early on when Tektronix ran across this, they used other substrate
materials like polysulfone, an amber colored high temperature plastic,
and later a white material which I have not identified.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 01:54:15 +0000, you wrote:

Are conformal coatings the right way to handle this?

I understand there are kinds of FR4 and G10 that don't have hook. What does
one do about hook - how are those substrates improved? How does hook
manifest in circuits?

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:48 David, davidwhess@gmail.com wrote:

FR4 has problems with consistency.  Samples can have problems with
hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity.

Conformal coating might help with sensitivity to humidity but I would not count on it. Hook corrupts the AC response and settling time in high impedance circuits. I did not know it at the time, but I suspect I have seen it manifest as mysterious linearity errors in integrating converters. The way to prevent hook is to use a substrate which does not suffer from it. For FR4, this could include testing to qualify suppliers. Early on when Tektronix ran across this, they used other substrate materials like polysulfone, an amber colored high temperature plastic, and later a white material which I have not identified. On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 01:54:15 +0000, you wrote: >Are conformal coatings the right way to handle this? > >I understand there are kinds of FR4 and G10 that don't have hook. What does >one do about hook - how are those substrates improved? How does hook >manifest in circuits? > >On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:48 David, <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote: > >> FR4 has problems with consistency. Samples can have problems with >> hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity.
CC
cheater00 cheater00
Mon, Apr 17, 2017 2:31 AM

Thank you. Do you have a plot of the effect on impedance due to hook out
into high frequencies, measured on a real world material? It would tell me
a lot.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 04:19 Bruce Griffiths, bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz
wrote:

Hook is merely a manifestation of the variation of dielectric constant
with frequency.

It affects the frequency response and transient of resistive attenuators
by requiring more complex compensation than merely adjusting a trimmer cap
to equalise the low frequency and high frequency attenuation. Since the
dielectric "constant" (relative permittivity) of all dielectrics is
frequency dependent all dielectrics will exhibit hook to some extent. Some
PCB substrates like some versions of FR4 and G10 exhibit a significant
variation in the dielectric constant from the dc value to a somewhat lower
value for frequencies even in he audio range let alone frequencies of
several MHz. Achieving a flat frequency response where the dielectric
associated with circuit board capacitances exhibits significant hook is a
complex task. Circuit board hook even affects the impedance of printed
transmission lines (eg stripline, microstrip, CPW etc).

Bruce

On 17 April 2017 at 13:54 cheater00 cheater00 cheater00@gmail.com wrote:

Are conformal coatings the right way to handle this?

I understand there are kinds of FR4 and G10 that don't have hook. What does
one do about hook - how are those substrates improved? How does hook
manifest in circuits?

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:48 David, davidwhess@gmail.com wrote:

FR4 has problems with consistency. Samples can have problems with
hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:07 +0100, you wrote:

Hi Chuck

But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of those
tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us
with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing
properties if they are not available as PCBs.

There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are
limiting for "metrology" use.

John


volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
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Thank you. Do you have a plot of the effect on impedance due to hook out into high frequencies, measured on a real world material? It would tell me a lot. On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 04:19 Bruce Griffiths, <bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > Hook is merely a manifestation of the variation of dielectric constant > with frequency. > > It affects the frequency response and transient of resistive attenuators > by requiring more complex compensation than merely adjusting a trimmer cap > to equalise the low frequency and high frequency attenuation. Since the > dielectric "constant" (relative permittivity) of all dielectrics is > frequency dependent all dielectrics will exhibit hook to some extent. Some > PCB substrates like some versions of FR4 and G10 exhibit a significant > variation in the dielectric constant from the dc value to a somewhat lower > value for frequencies even in he audio range let alone frequencies of > several MHz. Achieving a flat frequency response where the dielectric > associated with circuit board capacitances exhibits significant hook is a > complex task. Circuit board hook even affects the impedance of printed > transmission lines (eg stripline, microstrip, CPW etc). > > Bruce > > On 17 April 2017 at 13:54 cheater00 cheater00 <cheater00@gmail.com> wrote: > > Are conformal coatings the right way to handle this? > > I understand there are kinds of FR4 and G10 that don't have hook. What does > one do about hook - how are those substrates improved? How does hook > manifest in circuits? > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:48 David, <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote: > > FR4 has problems with consistency. Samples can have problems with > hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity. > > On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:07 +0100, you wrote: > > Hi Chuck > > But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of *those* > tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us > with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing > properties if they are not available as PCBs. > > There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are > limiting for "metrology" use. > > John > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > >
CC
cheater00 cheater00
Mon, Apr 17, 2017 2:33 AM

Hi David,
You could perhaps send some of that white material to Mike's Electric
Stuff, he has a mass spectrogram, which could tell you what it is.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 04:31 cheater00 cheater00, cheater00@gmail.com wrote:

Thank you. Do you have a plot of the effect on impedance due to hook out
into high frequencies, measured on a real world material? It would tell me
a lot.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 04:19 Bruce Griffiths, bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz
wrote:

Hook is merely a manifestation of the variation of dielectric constant
with frequency.

It affects the frequency response and transient of resistive attenuators
by requiring more complex compensation than merely adjusting a trimmer cap
to equalise the low frequency and high frequency attenuation. Since the
dielectric "constant" (relative permittivity) of all dielectrics is
frequency dependent all dielectrics will exhibit hook to some extent. Some
PCB substrates like some versions of FR4 and G10 exhibit a significant
variation in the dielectric constant from the dc value to a somewhat lower
value for frequencies even in he audio range let alone frequencies of
several MHz. Achieving a flat frequency response where the dielectric
associated with circuit board capacitances exhibits significant hook is a
complex task. Circuit board hook even affects the impedance of printed
transmission lines (eg stripline, microstrip, CPW etc).

Bruce

On 17 April 2017 at 13:54 cheater00 cheater00 cheater00@gmail.com
wrote:

Are conformal coatings the right way to handle this?

I understand there are kinds of FR4 and G10 that don't have hook. What
does
one do about hook - how are those substrates improved? How does hook
manifest in circuits?

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:48 David, davidwhess@gmail.com wrote:

FR4 has problems with consistency. Samples can have problems with
hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:07 +0100, you wrote:

Hi Chuck

But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of those
tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us
with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing
properties if they are not available as PCBs.

There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are
limiting for "metrology" use.

John


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Hi David, You could perhaps send some of that white material to Mike's Electric Stuff, he has a mass spectrogram, which could tell you what it is. On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 04:31 cheater00 cheater00, <cheater00@gmail.com> wrote: > Thank you. Do you have a plot of the effect on impedance due to hook out > into high frequencies, measured on a real world material? It would tell me > a lot. > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 04:19 Bruce Griffiths, <bruce.griffiths@xtra.co.nz> > wrote: > >> Hook is merely a manifestation of the variation of dielectric constant >> with frequency. >> >> It affects the frequency response and transient of resistive attenuators >> by requiring more complex compensation than merely adjusting a trimmer cap >> to equalise the low frequency and high frequency attenuation. Since the >> dielectric "constant" (relative permittivity) of all dielectrics is >> frequency dependent all dielectrics will exhibit hook to some extent. Some >> PCB substrates like some versions of FR4 and G10 exhibit a significant >> variation in the dielectric constant from the dc value to a somewhat lower >> value for frequencies even in he audio range let alone frequencies of >> several MHz. Achieving a flat frequency response where the dielectric >> associated with circuit board capacitances exhibits significant hook is a >> complex task. Circuit board hook even affects the impedance of printed >> transmission lines (eg stripline, microstrip, CPW etc). >> >> Bruce >> >> On 17 April 2017 at 13:54 cheater00 cheater00 <cheater00@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Are conformal coatings the right way to handle this? >> >> I understand there are kinds of FR4 and G10 that don't have hook. What >> does >> one do about hook - how are those substrates improved? How does hook >> manifest in circuits? >> >> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:48 David, <davidwhess@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> FR4 has problems with consistency. Samples can have problems with >> hook, dielectric absorption, leakage, and sensitivity to humidity. >> >> On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:08:07 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hi Chuck >> >> But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of *those* >> tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us >> with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing >> properties if they are not available as PCBs. >> >> There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are >> limiting for "metrology" use. >> >> John >> >> _______________________________________________ >> volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >>
CC
cheater00 cheater00
Mon, Apr 17, 2017 3:22 AM

That's quite a difference from what I knew, thanks!

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:17 Andy Bardagjy, andy@bardagjy.com wrote:

Synthetic sapphire has come down in price quite a bit, a 25mm dia 5mm thick
sapphire window can be had for just $71

https://www.thorlabs.com/thorproduct.cfm?partnumber=WG31050

Andy ◉ Bardagjy.com http://bardagjy.com/ ◉ +1-404-964-1641

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Scott Stobbe scott.j.stobbe@gmail.com
wrote:

As a practical aside regarding surface resistance, ignoring guard
amplifiers and guard traces, the historic solution is to point to point
wire in air. With some designs using Teflon standoffs for a more rigid
approach. Some of this can still be seen today, your smoke-detector

likely

has a one-layer phenonlic PCB with the sense pin of a DIP package IC bent
up off board and point-point wired in air to the Ion chamber.

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM, fala@gmx.net fala@gmx.net wrote:

Possibly Macor (machinable ceramic) from Corning, or the comparable
Vitronit, which are both glass ceramics.

Comparable to borosilicate glass.
Extremely machinable (HSS or carbide tools, use proper speeds and
coolant), continously stable until 800°C.
No safety concerns or toxic effects. The dust created when machining

can

be an irritant.

Available from Corning as standard size maxi slab of 36366 cm.
Price = ?

Quoting Wikipedia for technical data for Macor:

Density: 2.52 g/cm³
Young's modulus [GPa @ 25°C]: 66.9  (FR4 = 21 - 24, Aluminium = 69,

Steel

= 200)
Specific stiffness [E6 m²/s²]: 26.55  (Al = 26, Steel = 25 +/- 0.5)
Poisson's Ratio []: 0.29 (FR4 = 0.118 - 0.136, Al = 0.32, Steel =
0.27-0.31)
Thermal conductivity [W/(mK)]: 1.46  (FR4 ~ 0.3 - 1, Al ~ 300, Steel ~
15-50)
compressive strenght [MPa]: ~350
Electrical resistivity [Ohm
cm]: 1 E17 (FR4 = 1 E14, PTFE = 1 E23 to 1

E25)

Coefficient of thermal expansion [E-6 m/(m*K)]: 9.3 (FR4 ~ 13 , Copper

=

16.6)

Firat

Am 16.04.2017 um 13:08 schrieb John Devereux:

Hi Chuck

But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of those
tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us
with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing
properties if they are not available as PCBs.

There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are
limiting for "metrology" use.

John


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ailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
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That's quite a difference from what I knew, thanks! On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:17 Andy Bardagjy, <andy@bardagjy.com> wrote: > Synthetic sapphire has come down in price quite a bit, a 25mm dia 5mm thick > sapphire window can be had for just $71 > > https://www.thorlabs.com/thorproduct.cfm?partnumber=WG31050 > > Andy ◉ Bardagjy.com <http://bardagjy.com/> ◉ +1-404-964-1641 > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Scott Stobbe <scott.j.stobbe@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > As a practical aside regarding surface resistance, ignoring guard > > amplifiers and guard traces, the historic solution is to point to point > > wire in air. With some designs using Teflon standoffs for a more rigid > > approach. Some of this can still be seen today, your smoke-detector > likely > > has a one-layer phenonlic PCB with the sense pin of a DIP package IC bent > > up off board and point-point wired in air to the Ion chamber. > > > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:25 PM, fala@gmx.net <fala@gmx.net> wrote: > > > > > Possibly Macor (machinable ceramic) from Corning, or the comparable > > > Vitronit, which are both glass ceramics. > > > > > > Comparable to borosilicate glass. > > > Extremely machinable (HSS or carbide tools, use proper speeds and > > > coolant), continously stable until 800°C. > > > No safety concerns or toxic effects. The dust created when machining > can > > > be an irritant. > > > > > > Available from Corning as standard size maxi slab of 36*36*6 cm. > > > Price = ? > > > > > > Quoting Wikipedia for technical data for Macor: > > > --- > > > Density: 2.52 g/cm³ > > > Young's modulus [GPa @ 25°C]: 66.9 (FR4 = 21 - 24, Aluminium = 69, > Steel > > > = 200) > > > Specific stiffness [E6 m²/s²]: 26.55 (Al = 26, Steel = 25 +/- 0.5) > > > Poisson's Ratio []: 0.29 (FR4 = 0.118 - 0.136, Al = 0.32, Steel = > > > 0.27-0.31) > > > Thermal conductivity [W/(m*K)]: 1.46 (FR4 ~ 0.3 - 1, Al ~ 300, Steel ~ > > > 15-50) > > > compressive strenght [MPa]: ~350 > > > Electrical resistivity [Ohm*cm]: 1 E17 (FR4 = 1 E14, PTFE = 1 E23 to 1 > > E25) > > > Coefficient of thermal expansion [E-6 m/(m*K)]: 9.3 (FR4 ~ 13 , Copper > = > > > 16.6) > > > > > > Firat > > > > > > > > > Am 16.04.2017 um 13:08 schrieb John Devereux: > > > > > >> > > >> Hi Chuck > > >> > > >> But the context is "PCBs with ceramic substrates". Are any of *those* > > >> tough? They may well be, perhaps you know of some? It does not help us > > >> with the subject much if there are ceramics with these amazing > > >> properties if they are not available as PCBs. > > >> > > >> There is also the question of exactly what properties of FR4 are > > >> limiting for "metrology" use. > > >> > > >> John > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m > > > ailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > > mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >