Please see:
http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?toppost

Cheers,
David

SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web:  http://www.satsignal.eu
Email:  david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk

NO.

David J Taylor wrote:

David,

I appreciate the subtle humour here, but virtually all people I communicate
with top post, and I've been using email since the early 90s. It is only
groups like this where it seems to be a problem.  Maybe it is a function of
the mail reader that is being used, (not sure on that one), but I think you
will find that you are in the minority.

Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David J Taylor
Sent: 21 September 2011 10:42 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Subject: Listening to the List Owner

Please see:
http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?toppost

Cheers,
David

SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web:  http://www.satsignal.eu
Email:  david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Here, I'll top post this, and explain why.  It is frequently very difficult to
follow a complex thread due to different indentings, split up messages, some
groups not accepting HTML (like Yahoo's intermittent problems), and just plain
efficiency.  I have frequently missed points because I didn't spend time to comb
through a long thread to see a few words of response buried deep in the
message.  I also get a rather large volume of mail, much of which has a pretty
low SNR.  The quickest, most efficient method in my experience is to top post
when there is a single point to communicate.  Obviously, if you want to cover
many points of a long message, then it makes sense to be inserting the comments
in the proper locations, so you will see me doing that when appropriate.

Besides, what is more important:  the ideas someone has, or their posting
style?  When the posting style becomes more important in a group than the ideas,
I find that's usually not the place for me (and I know there are many others who
share that sentiment, it's far from original).  I suspect we can all easily
adapt to either, both, or an as-appropriate mix of posting styles.

Peter

On 9/21/2011 7:43 AM, Rob Kimberley wrote:

I may be in the minority, Rob, but the natural order for English has been
from top to bottom for as long as I have read books, magazine, newspapers,
reports, written letters or diaries etc.  It seems completely unnatural
and illogical to me to have the answer before the question!  I agree that
it may be the fault of some mail readers that top-posting has started, and
people failing to trim older parts of the message, and failing to scroll
down before they place their replies.

However, likely this is well off-topic, so I'll stop there.

PS: I don't do HTML e-mail either!

Cheers,
David

SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web:  http://www.satsignal.eu
Email:  david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk

At 07:43 AM 9/21/2011, Rob Kimberley wrote...

Microsoft (Exchange), RIM (Blackberry), and Google (Android), all make
it difficult-to-impossible to not top post. But they're all clueless
net newbies, too.

I really find it funny (to say the least) that in the XXI century people concentrate on form rather than content when using such an informal medium as e-mail.

This resembles professional and academic titles that people insist on appending to their names. These human beings are all about appearance. When you squeeze then there's little juice. It's ridiculous!

Regarding HTML mail it's like still using, today, a text based console e-mail client on a VAX/VMS! Fortunately punch cards went away a while ago!

By the way, HTML is a standard and I find it perfectly acceptable to have it used to format content of an e-mail. Are you against standards?

I bet you use MIME or do you attach the links to an FTP server for large files? Not an HTTP server as HTTP was not designed to transfer files.

I believe we have to be flexible and open in the world we live today.

Cheers,
Miguel

PS: Sorry for any typos as English is not my main language.

On 21/09/2011, at 13:07, Peter Gottlieb nerd@verizon.net wrote:

On 21/09/2011 13:12, Mike S wrote:

If you look at the IETF lists (where you will find a high proportion
of clueful net oldies) you will see that top posting is at least
as common, if not more common, than bottom posting.

Stewart

top posting works very nicely with mail clients that have a preview
screen, as well. And, yes, the whole "threading thing" gets implemented
in a variety of ways (even within the same product).  I use, variously,
thunderbird, Outlook, Outlook Web Access (OWA)-lite via Firefox/Safari,
the iPhone client, the Blackberry client, and whatever weird mail client
is on the iPad

Some do HTML well, some don't. Some convert back and forth cleanly.
Some are threading hostile
Some are bottom posting hostile
Some make it hard to interlineate comments (when someone has a long
essay with multiple issues, putting your responses in line just makes
sense to me: the questions/answers are naturally paired)

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:27:18 +0100
Miguel Gonçalves mail@miguelgoncalves.com wrote:

It's not just form. If you have been reading a lot of medium to high
traffic mailingslists with a dozen discussions in parallel on each
list, then you appreciate a lot that people do proper quoting[1].
It makes parsing the relevant parts of the discussion a lot easier,
because you instantly get the context of the response w/o the need
to scroll down, read trough an whole mail and figure out to which
part of it has been replied.

That's why on the usenet (the precessor to mailinglists) top posting
was "forbidden" by the netiquette, and you got into troubles if you
didnt adhere to the netiquette.

And still to this day, on all OSS mailinglist's i'm on, top posting
is at least frowned upon, if not forbidden explicitly.

And most importantly: If the list owner says top posting is a no-no,
then top posting is a no-no. Point. He sets the rules. He could
even require that we use a violett font and include pictures of
rosa ponies in all our mails and we'd have to adhere to it.

And for people claiming "to read a lot of mails", i think this is something
very subjective and highly relative to your context. I know people who
claim that they have a lot of mail, just because they get 20 mails a day.
Others i know cope with way over 1000 mails per day and say they have
only a moderate amount of mail traffic. So, when you claim something in
that regard, also tell some numbers.

			Attila Kinali

[1] this includes, trimming mails, using proper quoting characters, quoting
below the relevant text and using lines shorter than 70 characters.

The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin

Little Endians and Big Endians:

Paper or plastic?
Boxer or briefs?
On top or under?

Each pick what you like, teach your kids the 'correct' way to email

(and there is no top/bottom posting in SMS), but let's talk Cesium, GPS,
OCXOs, and not which side of the plate the fish knives go.  :-)

(repeated at the bottom, to be neutral)

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Attila Kinali
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 6:23 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Subject: Listening to the List Owner

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:27:18 +0100
Miguel Gonçalves mail@miguelgoncalves.com wrote:

It's not just form. If you have been reading a lot of medium to high
traffic mailingslists with a dozen discussions in parallel on each
list, then you appreciate a lot that people do proper quoting[1].
It makes parsing the relevant parts of the discussion a lot easier,
because you instantly get the context of the response w/o the need
to scroll down, read trough an whole mail and figure out to which
part of it has been replied.

That's why on the usenet (the precessor to mailinglists) top posting
was "forbidden" by the netiquette, and you got into troubles if you
didnt adhere to the netiquette.

And still to this day, on all OSS mailinglist's i'm on, top posting
is at least frowned upon, if not forbidden explicitly.

And most importantly: If the list owner says top posting is a no-no,
then top posting is a no-no. Point. He sets the rules. He could
even require that we use a violett font and include pictures of
rosa ponies in all our mails and we'd have to adhere to it.

And for people claiming "to read a lot of mails", i think this is something
very subjective and highly relative to your context. I know people who
claim that they have a lot of mail, just because they get 20 mails a day.
Others i know cope with way over 1000 mails per day and say they have
only a moderate amount of mail traffic. So, when you claim something in
that regard, also tell some numbers.

			Attila Kinali

[1] this includes, trimming mails, using proper quoting characters, quoting
below the relevant text and using lines shorter than 70 characters.

The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Little Endians and Big Endians:

Paper or plastic?
Boxer or briefs?
On top or under?

Each pick what you like, teach your kids the 'correct' way to email

(and there is no top/bottom posting in SMS), but let's talk Cesium, GPS,
OCXOs, and not which side of the plate the fish knives go.  :-)

(repeated at the top, to be neutral)

Bottom posting is anathema to those of us who use screen readers.  We can't
skim, we have to read every line or risk the possibility of missing
something.  In extreme cases I often give up before getting to the poster's
message.  If you must bottom post summarize instead of quoting every word of
every preceding message on the subject.  This will be my only post on this
subject.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O D S.

Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to.
funwithtransistors-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "David J Taylor" david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:41 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Subject: Listening to the List Owner

What he said!!!!!!
Don

Max Robinson

--
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com

I'm not replying to anybody in particular, just hit the reply key on the
last email.

Guys, this is rather off topic, dontchathink?  Get over it.  Whining won't
change how I post, but perhaps asking nicely might.

-Bob

On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Don Latham djl@montana.com wrote:

I might have missed but has the owner of the list said anything yet about this??

Cheers,
Miguel

On 21/09/2011, at 20:09, Robert Darlington rdarlington@gmail.com wrote:

The owner of the list doesn't really care all that much about top vs.
bottom posting.

The owner of the list really just wants people to think about the list
charter before posting: "time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for
the discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related
topics."

The owner of the list is amazed at recent quantity of off-topic traffic,
including every post in this thread, given that he posted a request and
reminder about this less than two days ago.

The owner of the list is quite fed up.

On 9/21/2011 3:12 PM, Miguel Gonçalves wrote:

[In order to make everyone happy, I have top posted AND
bottom posted my reply :-)]

On another list I read, the moderator deletes all top posts
without warning (your post just never shows up).  It is
difficult to have different posting rules for each list.
The same moderator will also delete posts with more than
a few lines quoted from the post being responded to.
Top posting supposedly is bad because it encourages
quoting all previous postings.  That was a problem
when we were using dial up connections.

And now back to time and frequency.

Rick

Max Robinson wrote:

On another list I read, the moderator deletes all top posts
without warning (your post just never shows up).  It is
difficult to have different posting rules for each list.
The same moderator will also delete posts with more than
a few lines quoted from the post being responded to.
Top posting supposedly is bad because it encourages
quoting all previous postings.  That was a problem
when we were using dial up connections.

And now back to time and frequency.

Rick