Hi There is no perfect “buy it for your basement” answer for all Tau. You can ( as mentioned ) sort OCXO’s and do pretty well at 1 second or less. You can buy a passive Hydrogen Maser and do pretty well at 1 second and very well from there on out. (An active maser won’t do quite as well, but they are easier to carry around the basement and a lot cheaper). You can go with a Rb and be about an order of magnitude ( or two …. depending on the Rb model ) behind this or that maser. Cost wise, you’ll be *way* ahead. You can buy a brand new 5071 with a high performance tube. Cost wise, you might be better off with that brand new active maser. ADEV wise, the Cs will catch up at some point. Is that a day or a week? Depends on just exactly what sort of maser you bought. Go to a standard tube on your 5071 and you will not have to send it back to the factory every 6 years for a new tube ( assuming it runs 24/7 ). You also will save some money. Your time to hit the maser will stretch out by a factor of 2 to 4. Is any of this basement stuff going to rival what the big boys have? Nope. You will be a few orders of magnitude behind them in an ADEV race at most tau’s. Bob > On Jan 11, 2023, at 2:31 PM, John Ackermann N8UR via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > Hi Jim -- > > Cesium standards aren't necessarily all that good at short tau as virtually all use the Cesium transition to steer an OXCO in a phase locked loop. The short term stability can be only as good as the OCXO, which dominates the stability within the loop bandwidth. So it's at longer tau, outside the loop bandwidth, that Cesium stands out; the ADEV improves decade-for-decade as the measurement interval increases out to a final noise floor. And of course Cs has the advantages of negligible drift, good retrace, and of course that it defines the second (for now). > > The HP5061A had a switch between (IIRC) 1 and 60 second loop time constants. You could use the long mode to get better short term stability, *if* you were in a stable environment, had a good Cs tube and OCXO, and the stars were aligned correctly. If not, the loop would go out of lock at some indeterminate time and the alarm light would go on. The 1 second time constant was much more reliable, but noisier at short tau. > > John > ---- > On 1/11/23 10:40, Jim Muehlberg via time-nuts wrote: >> Bob, so the ADEV gets better than factory spec - better over time? The number stated below approaches NIST_F1 at 1s ~2.8E-13. (Not sure if its correct - found on a slide presentation) and apparently exceeds most commercial cesium clocks for time scales less than~10s.. >> This is all fascinating since I now have two functional (as far as I know) opt 4 5061As (with, of course, 10811s inside). Plotting the spec for the 10811 and the 5061 in time lab is interesting, as the ADEV for the 10811A does indeed exceed the 5061 for time scales less than 1s. >> Maybe this is old news to all of you, but it's more than I knew yesterday! >> Jim >> On 2023-01-10 8:57 AM, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> There’s a seller on eBay ( besttestus ) who comes up with batches of 10811’s from who >>> knows where. Some are still attached to option boards for instruments. They just sold out >>> of the latest batch of about 200 or so. I’d guess they will get some back in eventually. >>> Asking price is typically right around $50 or so (with free shipping). They take offers so >>> you can indeed get them to sell you 10 at a whack for around $42 each. >>> >>> Based on testing more than a few of them, there will be a couple that have significant >>> issues ( < 5%). There will be some that are in spec, but not by as much as when they >>> left the factory ( maybe another 5 %). The rest split into “pretty good” and “really good”. >>> >>> The fact that the really good ones are still in the group suggests that these are indeed >>> NOS or something like that. A lot of batches you see have the best of the best pulled out >>> and you are just buying “the rest”. I’d guess that Fair is in the same mode, you get the >>> whole lot and can sort time as you wish. >>> >>> Just how many show up in the sub 6x10^-13 ADEV range varies a bit by lot. To me, >>> anything that’s in the parts in 10^-13 counts as very good. How many would improve >>> if you burned them in for six months or so, who knows…. >>> >>> Bottom line: You probably do better buying closer to the source of the surplus in a >>> case like this. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>>> On Jan 9, 2023, at 4:18 PM, DM via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> To All, >>>> Just a quick heads-up to anyone who might be needing, or just want one for fiddling with, Fair Radio Sales has a fair stock and a pretty good price for the HP 10811-60111 ovenized oscillators (https://fairradio.com/product/10811-60111/) . They are selling them (including the 05328-20027 support assembly) for US $79.00 each. >>>> Both I have bought two of them and both arrived in like new condition, and were fully operational, and required only minor tweaking to bring them to 10.0000000 MHz after running for a couple of months. The attached 05328-20027 support board indicates that they were removed from the HP 5328A or 5328B counters. >>>> Seems to be a pretty good deal for these well-aged oscillators. >>>> >>>> BTW, Fair Radio is also offering the 10544A oscillators for US $69.00. Both are described as "Tested for output may need adjustment." >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> DaveM >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

John, I'm beginning to understand that and indeed, the LTC mode appears more stable at shorter tau.  I am currently measuring using the network so my sample interval is maxed (min'd?) out at 0.12s due to network delay.  But the trend I am seeing confirms your synopsis.  The environment probably is not stable, just an ordinary lab/office situation.  Right by the door too, just to make it interesting! In the plot, the Purple is the spec for the opt 4 tube, the blue is the LTC mode, and the tan is the 1s mode.  The reference is another opt 4 5061.  Condition of either 5061 is somewhat dubious, so all this may be garbage.  Coupled with the fact that I really don't know what I'm doing! Jim On 2023-01-11 2:31 PM, John Ackermann N8UR via time-nuts wrote: > Hi Jim -- > > Cesium standards aren't necessarily all that good at short tau as > virtually all use the Cesium transition to steer an OXCO in a phase > locked loop.  The short term stability can be only as good as the > OCXO, which dominates the stability within the loop bandwidth.  So > it's at longer tau, outside the loop bandwidth, that Cesium stands > out; the ADEV improves decade-for-decade as the measurement interval > increases out to a final noise floor.  And of course Cs has the > advantages of negligible drift, good retrace, and of course that it > defines the second (for now). > > The HP5061A had a switch between (IIRC) 1 and 60 second loop time > constants.  You could use the long mode to get better short term > stability, *if* you were in a stable environment, had a good Cs tube > and OCXO, and the stars were aligned correctly.  If not, the loop > would go out of lock at some indeterminate time and the alarm light > would go on. The 1 second time constant was much more reliable, but > noisier at short tau. > > John > ---- > On 1/11/23 10:40, Jim Muehlberg via time-nuts wrote: >> Bob, so the ADEV gets better than factory spec - better over time?  >> The number stated below approaches NIST_F1 at 1s ~2.8E-13. (Not sure >> if its correct - found on a slide presentation) and apparently >> exceeds most commercial cesium clocks for time scales less than~10s.. >> >> This is all fascinating since I now have two functional (as far as I >> know) opt 4 5061As (with, of course, 10811s inside). Plotting the >> spec for the 10811 and the 5061 in time lab is interesting, as the >> ADEV for the 10811A does indeed  exceed the 5061 for time scales less >> than 1s. >> >> Maybe this is old news to all of you, but it's more than I knew >> yesterday! >> >> Jim >> >> >> On 2023-01-10 8:57 AM, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> There’s a seller on eBay ( besttestus ) who comes up with batches of >>> 10811’s from who >>> knows where. Some are still attached to option boards for >>> instruments. They just sold out >>> of the latest batch of about 200 or so. I’d guess they will get some >>> back in eventually. >>> Asking price is typically right around $50 or so (with free >>> shipping). They take offers so >>> you can indeed get them to sell you 10 at a whack for around $42 each. >>> >>> Based on testing more than a few of them, there will be a couple >>> that have significant >>> issues ( < 5%). There will be some that are in spec, but not by as >>> much as when they >>> left the factory ( maybe another 5 %). The rest split into “pretty >>> good” and “really good”. >>> >>> The fact that the really good ones are still in the group suggests >>> that these are indeed >>> NOS or something like that. A lot of batches you see have the best >>> of the best pulled out >>> and you are just buying “the rest”. I’d guess that Fair is in the >>> same mode, you get the >>> whole lot and can sort time as you wish. >>> >>> Just how many show up in the sub 6x10^-13 ADEV range varies a bit by >>> lot. To me, >>> anything that’s in the parts in 10^-13 counts as very good. How many >>> would improve >>> if you burned them in for six months or so, who knows…. >>> >>> Bottom line: You probably do better buying closer to the source of >>> the surplus in a >>> case like this. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>>> On Jan 9, 2023, at 4:18 PM, DM via time-nuts >>>> <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> To All, >>>> Just a quick heads-up to anyone who might be needing, or just want >>>> one for fiddling with, Fair Radio Sales has a fair stock and a >>>> pretty good price for the HP 10811-60111 ovenized oscillators >>>> (https://fairradio.com/product/10811-60111/) . They are selling >>>> them (including the 05328-20027 support assembly) for US $79.00 each. >>>> Both I have bought two of them and both arrived in like new >>>> condition, and were fully operational, and required only minor >>>> tweaking to bring them to 10.0000000 MHz after running for a couple >>>> of months. The attached 05328-20027 support board indicates that >>>> they were removed from the HP 5328A or 5328B counters. >>>> Seems to be a pretty good deal for these well-aged oscillators. >>>> >>>> BTW, Fair Radio is also offering the 10544A oscillators for US >>>> $69.00. Both are described as "Tested for output may need adjustment." >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> DaveM >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com -- Jim Muehlberg Senior Engineer National Radio Astronomy Observatory ngVLA Local Oscillator Lead 1180 Boxwood Estates Rd B-111 Charlottesville, VA 22903-4602 P 434.296.0270 C 434.422.2017