TWL: hull insulation moisture
We are interested in buying a used 1986 twin diesel Bayliner 3270, asking
price $54,900.
A marine surveyor has determined "high moisture level" in the hull foam
insulation.
Based on this, we will probably offer considerably less to the present
owner.
My guess is that this is due to blistering or something in the hull.
However, we
have been looking for several months to trade up, and boats this size with
diesel are
rare. Is it worth our while to look into having the hull fixed? How do they
get the
moisture out? (It's been almost a year out of water and in drydock, yet the
moisture
is still there so it doesnt appear that it will just evaporate.)
I have been through the Bayliner blister repair before on my present boat
(blisters that both the dealer and the factory claim were purely cosmetic
and thus not
covered by their alleged 5-year hull warranty -- but that's another
story...) so I
know what is involved. But is there anything else I should be aware of, any
other
potential pitfalls in a boat with this malady? What can I expect to pay to
have the
situation corrected and make this a safe and worthwhile buy? And what
should I offer
to pay for the boat, assuming I have to get the repairs done?
73
Jim, K2JXW, Amateur Radio Lighthouse Society, Member #001
U S Coast Guard Auxiliary -- USCGAUX, Flotilla 06-05-160
Lightship Sailors Association -- LSA
http://arlhs.com
---================
At 11:52 AM 06/11/2001 -0400, K2JXW / ARLHS.COM wrote:
We are interested in buying a used 1986 twin diesel Bayliner 3270, asking
price $54,900.
A marine surveyor has determined "high moisture level" in the hull foam
insulation.
Based on this, we will probably offer considerably less to the present
owner.
My guess is that this is due to blistering or something in the hull.
However, we
have been looking for several months to trade up, and boats this size with
diesel are
rare. Is it worth our while to look into having the hull fixed? How do they
get the
moisture out? (It's been almost a year out of water and in drydock, yet the
moisture
Sometime ago I read a story about a guy that wanted to rebuilt an old
wooden boat. The boat had major moisture/dry rot problems. In order to dry
it out completely, he sent the boat to the Arizona desert for a couple of
years. Unless you have fallen in love with this boat I would think twice
about it. If you buy it be prepared to spend a lot of $$$ and time to get
it right. Give us the name of this surveyor so that someone in your area
could use him. He seems to be able to spot the big problems....jd
Joe DellaFera / Margaret Murray
36' Prairie DC "Prairie Star"
Pompano Beach, Fl.
Joe Dellafera responded and asked:
Give us the name of this surveyor so that someone in your area
. could use him. He seems to be able to spot the big problems....jd
Well, it's a brokered boat and the owner hired the surveyor so I
have no idea whom he used. The dealer can't say, and the owner
won't show me the survey. It was the dealer that told me about
the moisture problem. They offered to have their shop do the
work, but I want to check out other opinions first.
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, K2JXW / ARLHS.COM wrote:
Well, it's a brokered boat and the owner hired the surveyor so I
have no idea whom he used. The dealer can't say, and the owner
won't show me the survey. It was the dealer that told me about
the moisture problem. They offered to have their shop do the
work, but I want to check out other opinions first.
I think you got real lucky - a buyer should NEVER let the owner or
broker select the surveyor. The surveyor is working for you, to find
the problems with the boat. You should select the surveyor, and you
should be the first person to get a first-hand report from him.
| Paul Goyette | PGP DSS Key fingerprint: | E-mail addresses: |
| Network Engineer | BCD7 5301 9513 58A6 0DBC | paul@whooppee.com |
| & World Cruiser | 91EB ADB1 A280 3B79 9221 | pgoyette@juniper.net |
---==============================>Well, it's
a brokered boat and the owner hired the surveyor so I
have no idea whom he used. The dealer can't say, and the owner
won't show me the survey. It was the dealer that told me about
the moisture problem. They offered to have their shop do the
work, but I want to check out other opinions first.
---=============================
You should not be paying for the survey if you can't see it........
.
Captain Al Pilvinis
"M/V Driftwood"--Prairie 47
2630 N.E. 41st Street
Lighthouse Point, Fl 33064-8064
Voice 954-941-2556 Fax 954 788-2666
Email yourcaptain@earthlink.net
Website http://home.earthlink.net/~yourcaptain
I'd be very leery of this deal. You've got to believe that if the owner
won't show you the survey, it's not because there are so many GOOD things
reported in it. I can only presume he would take this attitude if there
were other BAD things in it that he doesn't want you to see.
If you're in love with the boat and are going to buy it no matter what,
then I'd hire my own surveyor. The boat that I bought recently had no
major problems, but an assortment of minor ones. After the surveys (both
hull and engines), the owners dropped the price of the boat by several
times the cost of the surveys. Having your own survey done will either
prevent you from making a mistake buying the boat, or at least provide some
negotiating leverage on the price I would think.
Good luck....
Bill
At 12:54 PM 6/11/01 -0400, K2JXW / ARLHS.COM wrote:
Well, it's a brokered boat and the owner hired the surveyor so I
have no idea whom he used. The dealer can't say, and the owner
won't show me the survey. It was the dealer that told me about
the moisture problem. They offered to have their shop do the
work, but I want to check out other opinions first.
A marine surveyor has determined "high moisture level" in the hull foam
insulation.
1. What the heck does high mean - could be 50 % ,
75 %, 95 % or that the surveyor might think that 30 % is high .
Were there more than one reading - how many were taken ?- was one spot
" high " and the others not ? - were these readings averaged in total or by
area of the boat ?
This opinion is meaningless without the data that any qualified
surveyor would provede ...
Well, it's a brokered boat and the owner hired the surveyor so I have no
idea whom he used. The dealer can't say, and the owner won't show me the
survey. It was the dealer that told me about the moisture problem. They
offered to have their shop do the work, but I want to check out other
opinions first.
Opinion : RUN LIKE HELL
I wonder what the dealer offered to do - cut or dig out the foam and
reglass - or as one I saw most recently - which consisted of putting three
dehumidifiers in the bilge and " let them all run " .. Over the winter I
saw another boat dried with the use of space heaters - improperly
upported - the water line has a really nice wave to it - and it isn't just
the paint ....
2nd Opinion : RUN LIKE HELL FROM BOTH THIS DEALER AND THIS OWNER .
The surveyor may have done a good job or may not - you will never
know if you cannot see the report . GET the report, TALK to the Surveyor
, Check out the reputation of the surveyor as far as possible - With TWL -
other Boat owners in the area - etc.. If the Surveyor does not check out -
or provides only generalizations in his report .....
3rd Opinion : RUN LIKE HELL FROM THE WHOLE LOT....
Just one opinion
All the Best
Ken
m/v Mrs. Hudson
weidner@waterw.com writes:
A marine surveyor has determined "high moisture level" in the hull
foam
insulation.
Based on this, we will probably offer considerably less to the
present
owner
The following is NOT a Joke. Bought a Hullmaster 27 (notoriously
overbuilt here in Canada) from a couple that had it in dry storage
for two summers. A friend who sells marine instruments for a living.
walked around with his latest gadget. All the boats in the marina
were dry and sound - except mine. There seemed to be a persistent
roughly triangular form of moisture visible near the bow. Well it was
very early spring, the cockpit had ben covered, the keel except for a
few inches (which the moisture meter faithfully reported) all were
dry. Something was wrong - The previous owners had forgotten to
pump out the holding tank before land-storage. Big POOO!
We replaced every inch of hose, flushed the tank and now four years
later - not a whiff!
And yes, I did negotiate a few dollars discount ;-)
George of Scaramouche
P.s: If one uses enough of those blue Crystals, there is no overly
excessive odour even in Ontario Summers, that 's why the "error" was
not detected earlier.
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:42:56 -0700 (PDT), Paul Goyette wrote:
... The surveyor is working for you, to find
the problems with the boat. You should select the surveyor, and you
should be the first person to get a first-hand report from him.
While I agree with what Paul has said, I would go much further. You should not
only be the first person to get his report, you should be the only person.
You can then decide whether you want to release all or part to any other party.
You paid for the survey; the report is yours. Usually the only valid reason to
release any part of it is if you will renegotiate the deal because of problems
found, and then I would only copy the broker or owner in on the pertinent
part(s).
--
Dave Goodman
M/V Dragonfly
Sarasota, FL
. A friend who sells marine instruments for a living.
walked around with his latest gadget.
And his latest gadget was ???
Ken
Jim,
If you proceed, here's what will probably be the drill.
- You make an offer based on what you know about the boat and what the broker
has disclosed. They counter-offer. You dicker and agree on a price. - If it's seaworthy, you seatrial the boat. If it's wet, and it's on the hard
drying out, you might wind up having to skip this step. Do so only if you're
comfortable with that. - You get the boat hauled (if it's not already on the hard) and have the
meanest, toughest sumbitch of a surveyor you can find to dig deep and find out
what's really wrong with the boat.
Note: You probably shouldn't give the survey report to the broker/dealer. They
don't deserve it. They didn't show you theirs, so you shouldn't show them
yours. It's not a question of nice or not nice. The survey report is your
property. You paid a couple hundred bucks for this information. The broker
didn't. Now you're going to give it away? They'll probably make you feel
ridiculous for not showing it, but that's just a broker's tactic. When you
give the broker the survey, you're helping them to market the boat to a buyer
who is not you. - You itemize the problems that the surveyor turned up and put a price tag on
them. Take the price tag to the broker and tell them how much of that you
want. Remember that a surveyor will only tell you what he or she can see, so
when it's for something hidden (like hull insulation) don't be shy about
throwing in some fudge factor for the unkown. When they say "Aw, c'mon, let us
see the survey," snip out the negotiating point(s) and present them separately,
and then only if you feel like it.
Note: If you itemize for the moisture in your survey concession and they
respond with "We disclosed that. You knew about that. It's not a concession
candidate," you respond with "Now I know the extent, and that wasn't
disclosed." - The broker will minimize whatever you've found and look to lower your
concession demand. Give in or stand your ground depending on how desperately
you want the boat, how bad you think the repairs are, how desperately you think
the owner wants the boat off his hands, and how many people are (or are not)
standing in line to take your place.
You're almost certainly going to have to have a survey done anyway to get
financing and/or insurance. Use the survey process to your advantage.
You should not accept their survey results in any form, and most definitely not
as presented (verbal re-reporting).
You should definitely NOT let them proceed with the repair. It's in their
interest to do the absolute minimum to get it out the door. It's in your
interest to do it right. These two impulses are generally in conflict.
BTW, if the boat's on the hard, find out for how long, and make sure the
surveyor knows, as it will potentially affect the moisture content. The yard
should be able to tell you how long its been there.
Doug Hoople
M/V Bomar
1963 Stephens Bros. 50 FDMY
Sausalito, CA
tobyboat@worldnet.att.net writes:
. A friend who sells marine instruments for a living.
walked around with his latest gadget.
And his latest gadget was ???
That was over 5 yers ago and I've consumed way too much beer-diluted
aluminum before and since. However he showed me the thing and just
hokding it to the outside of the hull (on the hard) would show up
correcly water left in the freshwater-bladdder, the few inches in th
bilge (it's a wet-hollow bilge construction and of course the
"moisture" in the holding tank. The hokding tank is about 3 inches
thick and has a substantial airgap to the hull. Hi
Oh, why not ask my friend what the instrument was? He sold his boat,
moved away and is now in th Wine and Beer making business - Good
Move!.