The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Janko Mivšek janko.mivsek@eranova.si wrote:
This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because
it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases
blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members.
I thank you for your efforts running the GSoC marathon every year.
Nevertheless, as a member of the board I feel insulted again by you
Janko. I'm tired spending hours doing work for everyone and get such a
message as an answer
ESUG might have done a mistake giving 5000€ to the students and not
the amount that people voted for. I should have paid more attention to
that and I apologize. That's all I will apologize for.
Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by
"blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical?
Last time we talked about the representation of the Smalltalk
community in the ESUG board, I asked people from other communities to
apply and come work with us
(http://lists.esug.org/pipermail/esug-list_lists.esug.org/2012-July/001849.html).
Nobody applied! I will ask again, thanks for the remainder. Who is
going to take care of ESUG if we focus on taking care of Pharo?
Please stop insulting people. If you want to stop organizing the GSoC
for the Smalltalk community just say it clearly and we will all thank
you for the effort you have put in during this last years. But if you
want to continue, please do it with ESUG as this is what the ESUG
community seems to want if I analyse the answers you got to the recent
threads.
--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without
losing enthusiasm."
Winston Churchill
dear Smalltalk promoters,
I have too many friends that are in a divorce with kids in the picture.
I have an understanding with them: they can talk (rant) to me about
anything regarding their divorce, but not in public and not at parties.
So this stuff:
Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by
"blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical?
please take it to a private place, not at this party.
And this stuff:
Cc: "smalltalk-gsoc-mentors@googlegroups.com"
smalltalk-gsoc-mentors@googlegroups.com,
The general-purpose Squeak developers list
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org,
Pharo Development List pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org,
"phil@highoctane.be" phil@highoctane.be,
ESUG Mailing list esug-list@lists.esug.org,
pharo-users pharo-users@lists.pharo.org
is like my friends yelling at night keeping half the street awake.
It makes my toes curl in shame,
please -pretty please- tune it down.
Reinout
Hi Damien,
First, I do not insult anyone and certainly praise the ESUG and you guys
for all work you are doing. On the other side I cannot go over bad
things happening like this one. Unacceptable behavior must be exposed
and treated accordingly, as I said this is needed for any community to
stay healthy long-term.
ESUG might have done a mistake giving 5000€ to the students and not
the amount that people voted for. I should have paid more attention to
that and I apologize. That's all I will apologize for.
Thanks for your apologize, it is appreciated. Still I think we deserve
an apologize from those who spreaded privately and publicly the 'we lost
money' claim.
Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by
"blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical?
This is story from GSoC 2010, a first GSoC I run as admin. Because it is
so blatant, I give to the main actor a first word, then I'll explain and
put on table my side of the story and arguments.
In any case, this story is main reason that I started then already
pushing Smalltalk GSoC to be as independent as possible, with current
rename to Smalltalk proposal as a culmination.
Best regards
Janko
Dne 10. 02. 2014 10:40, piše Damien Cassou:
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Janko Mivšek janko.mivsek@eranova.si wrote:
This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because
it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases
blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members.
I thank you for your efforts running the GSoC marathon every year.
Nevertheless, as a member of the board I feel insulted again by you
Janko. I'm tired spending hours doing work for everyone and get such a
message as an answer
Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by
"blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical?
Last time we talked about the representation of the Smalltalk
community in the ESUG board, I asked people from other communities to
apply and come work with us
(http://lists.esug.org/pipermail/esug-list_lists.esug.org/2012-July/001849.html).
Nobody applied! I will ask again, thanks for the remainder. Who is
going to take care of ESUG if we focus on taking care of Pharo?
Please stop insulting people. If you want to stop organizing the GSoC
for the Smalltalk community just say it clearly and we will all thank
you for the effort you have put in during this last years. But if you
want to continue, please do it with ESUG as this is what the ESUG
community seems to want if I analyse the answers you got to the recent
threads.
Phil,
This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because
it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases
blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. Which is
certainly bad for our community on long term.
Janko CAN YOU STOP!
"blatantly unethical behavior”
Really
Stef
Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a
community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into
murky waters more and more.
Best regards
Janko
Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil@highoctane.be:
Guys,
From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in
the kindergarten.
All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward.
Backwards, there is a fair chance.
Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk.
Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to
fight over for an European org... (rolleyes).
Phil
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse@gmail.com
mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Janko,
I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4
extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave
up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin).
So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate
last year BUT we were willing to spend it.
Luc
2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@eranova.si
<mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>>:
Dear all,
First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be
blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and
misguided.
Facts namely are:
1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while
ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any
report
back to GSoC mentors,
2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for
paying extra projects [2][3].
Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is:
Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD
GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD
------------------------------
13.000 USD
Expenses:
Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD
Difference: + 4.000 USD
If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't
loose any
money but gain 4.000 USD.
Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to
apologize to
you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!
Janko
[1]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
[2]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
[3]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw
Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:
Hi all,
FACTS
As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
projects in 2013.
ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted
by Google.
In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and
Benjamin Arezki.
All in all we paid:
- 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular
GSOC) each
projects
- Serge trip to Mentor summit
And we received 5552EUR from Google
so yes we lost ~6582EUR
That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
sponsorized 3.
I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc
mentor
summit because it participates to the fact that Google
recognizes ESUG
ang gives slots the next year.
It is alos important to note dates.
ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google.
It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.
FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:
As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my
*own* time
and it takes a lot!
I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all
falvors!)
is a really great language that should be more widespread.
I also completely open to discussions.
The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
I can do errors too.
So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!
I cannot admit that:
- Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly
directed
against the treasurer so me.
And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I
hide or
steal money make me think that I should better quit.
- Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would
have done a
mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK
ME for
DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any
- People wants an answer fast, this conversation started
yesterday and I
am spending my week-end with my kids
I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the
problems together
if any.
But I think it will never happen...
#Luc
The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end
in bad mood
--
Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
--
Janko Mivšek
Svetovalec za informatiko
Eranova d.o.o.
Ljubljana, Slovenija
www.eranova.si
tel: 01 514 22 55
faks: 01 514 22 56
gsm: 031 674 565
Paolo
we are
blatantly unethical behavior
so we cannot do more.
Stef
Paolo
I did not discuss yet with the ESUG board but we are sick of all this.
Can you really run the GSOC this year administratively because I think
that ESUG should stop to be a bank for it?
I think that Janko is getting off. We cannot work with a person like
that. I will make us lose too much energy.
Like that the mentors will be free to do whatever they want to do.
Stef,
please calm down. I hope that you wanted to make this mail private. Public mailing lists are not the right place for this language, much less with such a wide crosspost.
I already mentioned that all I care about is to have students funded by Google and working in Smalltalk. ESUG will get $500 per student, and can use them to send more people to the mentor summit or whatever else they prefer---I don't want to have anything to do with how ESUG spends their GSoC money.
Paolo
--
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On 10 Feb 2014, at 11:08, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.ducasse@inria.fr wrote:
Phil,
This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because
it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases
blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. Which is
certainly bad for our community on long term.
Janko CAN YOU STOP!
"blatantly unethical behavior”
Really
I propose we do at the next ESUG the following:
- the general assembly sets up and vote for a small group
(3-5 people?) - they look into the issues
- then report back to the general assembly
It will of course been taken care that this gremium is independed.
Because via email this is really not going to work.
Marcus
dear Smalltalk promoters,
I have too many friends that are in a divorce with kids in the picture.
I have an understanding with them: they can talk (rant) to me about
anything regarding their divorce, but not in public and not at parties.
So this stuff:
Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by
"blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical?
please take it to a private place, not at this party.
And this stuff:
Cc: "smalltalk-gsoc-mentors@googlegroups.com"
smalltalk-gsoc-mentors@googlegroups.com,
The general-purpose Squeak developers list
squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org,
Pharo Development List pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org,
"phil@highoctane.be" phil@highoctane.be,
ESUG Mailing list esug-list@lists.esug.org,
pharo-users pharo-users@lists.pharo.org
is like my friends yelling at night keeping half the street awake.
It makes my toes curl in shame,
please -pretty please- tune it down.
Reinout
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
"Every thing has its own flow"
Dne 10. 02. 2014 11:08, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
Janko CAN YOU STOP!
"blatantly unethical behavior”
Really
Stef
Stef, we are waiting to you. Will you tell us your part of the story
about your GSoC 2010 act or shall I start by myself?
Janko
Phil,
This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community,
because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes,
and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board
members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term.
Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a
community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into
murky waters more and more.
Best regards
Janko
Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše phil@highoctane.be
mailto:phil@highoctane.be:
Guys,
From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in
the kindergarten.
All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward.
Backwards, there is a fair chance.
Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk.
Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to
fight over for an European org... (rolleyes).
Phil
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <luc.fabresse@gmail.com
mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com
mailto:luc.fabresse@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Janko,
I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4
extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave
up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin).
So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate
last year BUT we were willing to spend it.
Luc
2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@eranova.si
mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si
mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>:
Dear all,
First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be
blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and
misguided.
Facts namely are:
1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1]
while
ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any
report
back to GSoC mentors,
2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the
pool for
paying extra projects [2][3].
Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is:
Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD
GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD
------------------------------
13.000 USD
Expenses:
Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD
Difference: + 4.000 USD
If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't
loose any
money but gain 4.000 USD.
Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to
apologize to
you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!
Janko
[1]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
[2]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
[3]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw
Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:
Hi all,
FACTS
As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
projects in 2013.
ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted
by Google.
In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and
Benjamin Arezki.
All in all we paid:
- 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular
GSOC) each
projects
- Serge trip to Mentor summit
And we received 5552EUR from Google
so yes we lost ~6582EUR
That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
sponsorized 3.
I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc
mentor
summit because it participates to the fact that Google
recognizes ESUG
ang gives slots the next year.
It is alos important to note dates.
ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google.
It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.
FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:
As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my
*own* time
and it takes a lot!
I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all
falvors!)
is a really great language that should be more widespread.
I also completely open to discussions.
The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
I can do errors too.
So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!
I cannot admit that:
- Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly
directed
against the treasurer so me.
And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I
hide or
steal money make me think that I should better quit.
- Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would
have done a
mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK
ME for
DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any
- People wants an answer fast, this conversation started
yesterday and I
am spending my week-end with my kids
I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the
problems together
if any.
But I think it will never happen...
#Luc
The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end
in bad mood
--
Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin
and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.
Esteban
On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont stephan@stack.nl wrote:
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin
and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
Stephan Eggermont
Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org