Empathy List Archives

JS

John Sloan

Thu, Sep 6, 2018 1:53 PM

Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John

ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230

--
J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com http://www.diag.com/

Folks: Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham! :John > ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV > GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A > 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM > RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM > RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230 -- J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp. +1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209 +1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com <http://www.diag.com/>

SM

Scott McGrath

Thu, Sep 6, 2018 3:34 PM

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.

Leaving civilian users with nothing,

If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan jsloan@diag.com wrote:

Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John

ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230

--
J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com http://www.diag.com/

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time. Leaving civilian users with nothing, If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well. On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan <jsloan@diag.com> wrote: Folks: Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham! :John > ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV > GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A > 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM > RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM > RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230 -- J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp. +1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209 +1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com <http://www.diag.com/> _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.

DV

David Van Horn

Thu, Sep 6, 2018 4:12 PM

We just put up another GPS antenna for our backup thunderbolt, and now IT is blaming that for why our wifi is sluggish.
And it happens whether the new antenna is even connected!

https://www.kb6nu.com/theyll-do-it-every-time/

I should have known.. (KC6ETE here)

We just put up another GPS antenna for our backup thunderbolt, and now IT is blaming that for why our wifi is sluggish. And it happens whether the new antenna is even connected! https://www.kb6nu.com/theyll-do-it-every-time/ I should have known.. (KC6ETE here)

BK

Bob kb8tq

Thu, Sep 6, 2018 8:56 PM

Hi

Well, we do have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”.

A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine.

I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate.

=====

Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much not a Time Nuts topic.

Bob

On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.

Leaving civilian users with nothing,

If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan jsloan@diag.com wrote:

Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John

ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230

--
J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com http://www.diag.com/

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”. A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. ===== Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time Nuts topic. Bob > On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: > > And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time. > > Leaving civilian users with nothing, > > If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well. > > > > > > On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan <jsloan@diag.com> wrote: > > > Folks: > > Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but > my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at > White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching > several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham! > > :John > >> ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV >> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A >> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM >> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM >> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230 > > -- > J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp. > +1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209 > +1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA > jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com <http://www.diag.com/> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

SM

Scott McGrath

Thu, Sep 6, 2018 10:35 PM

Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually.

Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS, repeatability was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.

Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.

Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

Well, we do have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”.

A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine.

I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate.

=====

Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much not a Time Nuts topic.

Bob

On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.

Leaving civilian users with nothing,

If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan jsloan@diag.com wrote:

Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John

ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230

--
J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com http://www.diag.com/

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually. Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS, repeatability was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better. Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost. Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so. On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: Hi Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”. A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. ===== Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time Nuts topic. Bob > On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: > > And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time. > > Leaving civilian users with nothing, > > If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well. > > > > > > On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan <jsloan@diag.com> wrote: > > > Folks: > > Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but > my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at > White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching > several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham! > > :John > >> ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV >> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A >> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM >> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM >> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230 > > -- > J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp. > +1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209 > +1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA > jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com <http://www.diag.com/> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.

BM

Bob Martin

Thu, Sep 6, 2018 11:01 PM

I'm sure this has been discussed many times here.

E-Loran - I designed the timing hardware that controlled the
transmitters for that upgrade while I was at Timing Solutions.

As I remember it, it was funded by the FAA to be a backup for GPS.
The FAA planned to make more use of GPS in the future (distant
future given the speed at which the FAA moves).

I'm not sure the Coast Guard was excited about the responsibility
of running LORAN.

Here is a powerpoint presentation arguing for e-loran:

https://www.gps.gov/governance/advisory/meetings/2009-05/doherty.pdf

Bob Martin

On 9/6/2018 4:35 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:

Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually.

Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS, repeatability was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.

Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.

Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

Well, we do have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”.

A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine.

I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate.

=====

Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much not a Time Nuts topic.

Bob

On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.

Leaving civilian users with nothing,

If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan jsloan@diag.com wrote:

Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John

ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230

--
J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com http://www.diag.com/

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

I'm sure this has been discussed many times here. E-Loran - I designed the timing hardware that controlled the transmitters for that upgrade while I was at Timing Solutions. As I remember it, it was funded by the FAA to be a backup for GPS. The FAA planned to make more use of GPS in the future (distant future given the speed at which the FAA moves). I'm not sure the Coast Guard was excited about the responsibility of running LORAN. Here is a powerpoint presentation arguing for e-loran: https://www.gps.gov/governance/advisory/meetings/2009-05/doherty.pdf Bob Martin On 9/6/2018 4:35 PM, Scott McGrath wrote: > Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually. > > Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS, repeatability was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better. > > Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost. > > Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so. > > > > On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > > Hi > > Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”. > > A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. > > I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. > > ===== > > Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time Nuts topic. > > Bob > >> On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time. >> >> Leaving civilian users with nothing, >> >> If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan <jsloan@diag.com> wrote: >> >> >> Folks: >> >> Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but >> my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at >> White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching >> several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham! >> >> :John >> >>> ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV >>> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A >>> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM >>> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM >>> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230 >> >> -- >> J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp. >> +1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209 >> +1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA >> jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com <http://www.diag.com/> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >

DI

David I. Emery

Thu, Sep 6, 2018 11:26 PM

On Thu, Sep 06, 2018 at 06:35:23PM -0400, Scott McGrath wrote:

Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ???competing??? with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually.

Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.

FWLIW, my brother in law was the USCG admiral who was CFO (and

chief bean counter) of the USCG when that was going down. I tried, but
ran into the "it's classified" stuff... I think they had a rationale
other than just cost. There is an argument that denying GPS to
terrorists in crisis situations is much easier than denying E-Loran...

He is not an empty suit BTW, though a helo pilot (and MBA) by

training and not a time nut or engineer. Now long out of the USCG and
executive VP of a Cruise line.

--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

On Thu, Sep 06, 2018 at 06:35:23PM -0400, Scott McGrath wrote: > Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ???competing??? with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually. > Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost. FWLIW, my brother in law was the USCG admiral who was CFO (and chief bean counter) of the USCG when that was going down. I tried, but ran into the "it's classified" stuff... I think they had a rationale other than just cost. There is an argument that denying GPS to terrorists in crisis situations is much easier than denying E-Loran... He is not an empty suit BTW, though a helo pilot (and MBA) by training and not a time nut or engineer. Now long out of the USCG and executive VP of a Cruise line. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

BK

Bob kb8tq

Fri, Sep 7, 2018 12:04 AM

Hi

No, eLoran never on it’s best day could ever deliver the kind of timing that the vast majority
of these systems require. It simply is not and can not do the job. The world has moved way
past the sort of timing it can actually deliver.

Bob

On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:

Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually.

Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS, repeatability was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.

Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.

Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

Well, we do have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”.

A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine.

I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate.

=====

Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much not a Time Nuts topic.

Bob

On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.

Leaving civilian users with nothing,

If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan jsloan@diag.com wrote:

Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John

ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230

--
J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com http://www.diag.com/

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi No, eLoran *never* on it’s best day could ever deliver the kind of timing that the vast majority of these systems require. It simply is not and can not do the job. The world has moved *way* past the sort of timing it can actually deliver. Bob > On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: > > Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually. > > Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS, repeatability was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better. > > Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost. > > Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so. > > > > On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > > Hi > > Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”. > > A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. > > I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. > > ===== > > Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time Nuts topic. > > Bob > >> On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time. >> >> Leaving civilian users with nothing, >> >> If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan <jsloan@diag.com> wrote: >> >> >> Folks: >> >> Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but >> my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at >> White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching >> several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham! >> >> :John >> >>> ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV >>> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A >>> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM >>> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM >>> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230 >> >> -- >> J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp. >> +1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209 >> +1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA >> jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com <http://www.diag.com/> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there.

BM

Bob Martin

Fri, Sep 7, 2018 12:25 AM

Hi,

This is so not my area of interest but I did come across the
following quote from the link listed below.

"A backup system is also a possible element. The British have
demonstrated that eLoran can deliver time with 50 nanoseconds
accuracy or better “pretty much anywhere you want to,” said Dana
Goward, president of the Resilient Navigation and Timing Foundation."

http://insidegnss.com/broad-effort-underway-on-assured-accurate-time-for-critical-infrastructure/

I'm sure someone will identify some hidden "but" in the above claim.

I designed the timing hardware for the Loran upgrade well over 10
years ago and haven't thought about it until now. It is fascinating
to me that it is still alive and twitching even after it was killed off.

It is also interesting to see that the Time-Nut concern about GPS
vulnerability is shared by many organizations and governments.

Best,

Bob Martin

On 9/6/2018 6:04 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

No, eLoran never on it’s best day could ever deliver the kind of timing that the vast majority
of these systems require. It simply is not and can not do the job. The world has moved way
past the sort of timing it can actually deliver.

Bob

On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:

Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually.

Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS, repeatability was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.

Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.

Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

Well, we do have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”.

A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine.

I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate.

=====

Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much not a Time Nuts topic.

Bob

On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.

Leaving civilian users with nothing,

If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan jsloan@diag.com wrote:

Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John

ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230

--
J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com http://www.diag.com/

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Hi, This is so not my area of interest but I did come across the following quote from the link listed below. "A backup system is also a possible element. The British have demonstrated that eLoran can deliver time with 50 nanoseconds accuracy or better “pretty much anywhere you want to,” said Dana Goward, president of the Resilient Navigation and Timing Foundation." http://insidegnss.com/broad-effort-underway-on-assured-accurate-time-for-critical-infrastructure/ I'm sure someone will identify some hidden "but" in the above claim. I designed the timing hardware for the Loran upgrade well over 10 years ago and haven't thought about it until now. It is fascinating to me that it is still alive and twitching even after it was killed off. It is also interesting to see that the Time-Nut concern about GPS vulnerability is shared by many organizations and governments. Best, Bob Martin On 9/6/2018 6:04 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > No, eLoran *never* on it’s best day could ever deliver the kind of timing that the vast majority > of these systems require. It simply is not and can not do the job. The world has moved *way* > past the sort of timing it can actually deliver. > > Bob > >> On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually. >> >> Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS, repeatability was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better. >> >> Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost. >> >> Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so. >> >> >> >> On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”. >> >> A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. >> >> I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. >> >> ===== >> >> Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time Nuts topic. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time. >>> >>> Leaving civilian users with nothing, >>> >>> If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan <jsloan@diag.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Folks: >>> >>> Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but >>> my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at >>> White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching >>> several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham! >>> >>> :John >>> >>>> ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV >>>> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A >>>> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM >>>> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM >>>> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230 >>> >>> -- >>> J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp. >>> +1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209 >>> +1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA >>> jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com <http://www.diag.com/> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >

SM

Scott McGrath

Fri, Sep 7, 2018 12:44 AM

Gee, thats strange especially for those of us who ran the Austron comparitors to check our local standards against the LORSTA’s

On Sep 6, 2018, at 8:04 PM, Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

No, eLoran never on it’s best day could ever deliver the kind of timing that the vast majority
of these systems require. It simply is not and can not do the job. The world has moved way
past the sort of timing it can actually deliver.

Bob

On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:

Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually.

Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS, repeatability was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better.

Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost.

Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

Well, we do have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”.

A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine.

I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate.

=====

Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much not a Time Nuts topic.

Bob

On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:

And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time.

Leaving civilian users with nothing,

If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well.

On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan jsloan@diag.com wrote:

Folks:

Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but
my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at
White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching
several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham!

:John

ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV
GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A
359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM
RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM
RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230

--
J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com http://www.diag.com/

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Gee, thats strange especially for those of us who ran the Austron comparitors to check our local standards against the LORSTA’s On Sep 6, 2018, at 8:04 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: Hi No, eLoran *never* on it’s best day could ever deliver the kind of timing that the vast majority of these systems require. It simply is not and can not do the job. The world has moved *way* past the sort of timing it can actually deliver. Bob > On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: > > Actually we DID have a radio based system that provided sufficient accuracy it was called eLORAN but it was killed by US politicians because they did not want a much more inexpensive to operate system ‘competing’ with GPS. Shutting down LORAN saved 32m dollars annually the NAVSTAR GPS program costs billions annually. > > Ironically while LORAN’s absolute accuracy is less than GPS, repeatability was much better so fishermen liked LORAN better. > > Once again the empty suits won and the navigation and timing community lost. > > Wrt cellsites staying operational i imagine the oscillators in holdover would probably remain sufficiently synchronized for a month or so. > > > > On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > > Hi > > Well, we *do* have experience with that. It was called selective availability. Indeed it might get turned back on again. It’s impact on a properly designed GPSDO - not much. It takes a bit longer to get to best stability. System time wise, it still works “good enough”. > > A four hour long test format also does basically nothing to a GPSDO based system. You didn’t read anything in the papers about all cell service in three states going away. The devices did what they are supposed to do and everything did it’s boringly normal thing ….. it worked fine. > > I still don’t quite understand just what people think could replace satellite based timing in these systems. None of the “radio based” systems are within a factor many thousands to a few million of being adequate. > > ===== > > Now, if this is headed off into a “the government is coming to break down the doors and take away all my toys sort of thing. That’s very much *not* a Time Nuts topic. > > Bob > >> On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> And there is the other significant vulnerability since GPS is a MILITARY system the DoD can take it offline for any reason at any time. >> >> Leaving civilian users with nothing, >> >> If its a national security threat its likely the other GNSS systems will be unavailable as well. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:53 AM, John Sloan <jsloan@diag.com> wrote: >> >> >> Folks: >> >> Well blow me down. It took some Google Maps fu on the web on my part, but >> my time and place does indeed coincide with this “GPS Interference Testing” at >> White Sands Missile Range. I just happened to be in my home office watching >> several of my GPS-disciplined NTP servers when this occurred. Thanks, Graham! >> >> :John >> >>> ZDV DENVER (ARTCC),CO. [Back to Top] !GPS 08/260 (KZDV A0287/18) ZDV NAV >>> GPS (WSMR GPS 18-20) (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADS-B) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A >>> 359NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 333345N1063840W (TCS054036) FL400-UNL, 311NM >>> RADIUS AT FL250, 215NM RADIUS AT 10000FT, 223NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL, 169NM >>> RADIUS AT 50FT AGL DLY 1830-2230 1809031830-1809082230 >> >> -- >> J. L. Sloan Digital Aggregates Corp. >> +1 303 940 9064 (O) 3440 Youngfield St. #209 >> +1 303 489 5178 (M) Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA >> jsloan@diag.com http://www.diag.com <http://www.diag.com/> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Lost GPS lock or 1PPS recently?