Re: [time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.
What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to end of
life?
Buy another instrument off of Ebay. It'll be cheaper, more accurate, and last longer than the old one. Plus, it'll have microprocessor control and thus be cooler and more entertaining for the hackers.
Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to life?
It can't be done. Trust me, I've done it.
-RL
--
Robert Lutwak, Senior Scientist
Symmetricom - Technology Realization Center
34 Tozer Rd.
Beverly, MA 01915
RLutwak@Symmetricom.com (Business)
Lutwak@Alum.MIT.edu (Personal)
(978) 232-1461 (Desk)
(339) 927-7896 (Mobile)
(978) 927-4099 (FAX)
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Jack Hudler" jack@hudler.org
It seems to me that like all good things they must come to and end.
If all CBTs have a life expectancy that varies depending on the
manufacturer.
What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to end of
life?
I for one am certainly not going to buy one, not at those prices! (Unless
I'm retired then that's another story)
You only have calculate the time value of money for that CBT purchase over
the remaining time to retirement; If that doesn't stop you dead in your
tracks then this group really is aptly named! :)
From my perspective, that of wanting to own a Cesium Standard; I don't
really want to layout the monies for something that's going to end of life
on me shortly (few years) afterwards.
I know that handling (Caesium) Cesium-133 is tricky at best. It's a heavy
alkali metal and contact with moisture is right out!
Other than that it's not terribly difficult to create a safe environment to
work with it.
So there must be something else that's considerably more difficult than
opening the tube, recharging the ampoule, resealing it, pulling an ultra
high vacuum and baking it out.
I've not seen any pictures of a naked CBT, still I'm not too worried about
cracking the tube open if its Pyrex, unless resealing it caused the cesium
beam collimation to be lost.
Are there if any getters to worry about? If so, how would one ablate the
contaminates of the surface?
Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to life?
Jack
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Which begs the question of; who's cesium standard will we buy in surplus
market?
Besides you guys (Symmetricom), who is building Cesium standards that
haven't yet been absorbed by Symmetricom? (note this is not meant to be
derogatory).
Certainly most if not all the 5060, 5061, and 5062 are either dead or close
to it. Excluding those that have had their CBT's replaced or properly stored
and regularly pumped down, or just lucky.
The 5071's have yet to make an appearance on eBay at levels I would consider
paying.
From my POV (which could be myopic), a few CBT manufacturers are controlling
what remains of this market (no I'm not a conspiracy nut, it's just
business), so it seems to me that the surplus market is going to get very
thin in the near future.
Supply and demand dictates that surplus market prices will skyrocket out of
the vast majority of amateur reaches in the coming years.
So what's the next cesium standard to start showing up on eBay in numbers
with life left?
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of rlutwak@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:56 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.
What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to end
of
life?
Buy another instrument off of Ebay. It'll be cheaper, more accurate, and
last longer than the old one. Plus, it'll have microprocessor control and
thus be cooler and more entertaining for the hackers.
Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to
life?
It can't be done. Trust me, I've done it.
-RL
--
Robert Lutwak, Senior Scientist
Symmetricom - Technology Realization Center
34 Tozer Rd.
Beverly, MA 01915
RLutwak@Symmetricom.com (Business)
Lutwak@Alum.MIT.edu (Personal)
(978) 232-1461 (Desk)
(339) 927-7896 (Mobile)
(978) 927-4099 (FAX)
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Jack Hudler" jack@hudler.org
It seems to me that like all good things they must come to and end.
If all CBTs have a life expectancy that varies depending on the
manufacturer.
What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to end
of
life?
I for one am certainly not going to buy one, not at those prices! (Unless
I'm retired then that's another story)
You only have calculate the time value of money for that CBT purchase over
the remaining time to retirement; If that doesn't stop you dead in your
tracks then this group really is aptly named! :)
From my perspective, that of wanting to own a Cesium Standard; I don't
really want to layout the monies for something that's going to end of life
on me shortly (few years) afterwards.
I know that handling (Caesium) Cesium-133 is tricky at best. It's a heavy
alkali metal and contact with moisture is right out!
Other than that it's not terribly difficult to create a safe environment
to
work with it.
So there must be something else that's considerably more difficult than
opening the tube, recharging the ampoule, resealing it, pulling an ultra
high vacuum and baking it out.
I've not seen any pictures of a naked CBT, still I'm not too worried about
cracking the tube open if its Pyrex, unless resealing it caused the cesium
beam collimation to be lost.
Are there if any getters to worry about? If so, how would one ablate the
contaminates of the surface?
Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to
life?
Jack
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
From: "Jack Hudler" jack@hudler.org
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:25:47 -0500
Message-ID: 00ca01c767f8$84d91cc0$8e8b5640$@org
Which begs the question of; who's cesium standard will we buy in surplus
market?
Besides you guys (Symmetricom), who is building Cesium standards that
haven't yet been absorbed by Symmetricom? (note this is not meant to be
derogatory).
Oscilloquartz. I beleive that they have Symmetricom tubes in them.
Actually that would raise questions regarding to second-source for serious
telecom operators. Fortunatly for them, GPS clocks is usually enought.
I beleive there was a Russian Cesium-maker, but if I recall correctly they
stopped doing Cesium clocks.
From my POV (which could be myopic), a few CBT manufacturers are controlling
what remains of this market (no I'm not a conspiracy nut, it's just
business), so it seems to me that the surplus market is going to get very
thin in the near future.
It is really just buisness decissions behind it. Weither they where wise or not
is another issue. Joint buissnesses is not always beneficial (see second-source
comment).
Cheers,
Magnus
The only people I know making Cs now are Symmetricom (the old Datum/FTS +
recent Agilent acquisition), FEI (although they don't think they make many
now), and Temex in France. Heard rumours of some being made in Japan, but
not sure if and who. The Russians seem to concentrate on H2 Masers (Kvarz,
and Vremya).
Anyone know of others??
Rob K
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Jack Hudler
Sent: 16 March 2007 18:26
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.
Which begs the question of; who's cesium standard will we buy in surplus
market?
Besides you guys (Symmetricom), who is building Cesium standards that
haven't yet been absorbed by Symmetricom? (note this is not meant to be
derogatory).
Certainly most if not all the 5060, 5061, and 5062 are either dead or close
to it. Excluding those that have had their CBT's replaced or properly stored
and regularly pumped down, or just lucky.
The 5071's have yet to make an appearance on eBay at levels I would consider
paying.
From my POV (which could be myopic), a few CBT manufacturers are controlling
what remains of this market (no I'm not a conspiracy nut, it's just
business), so it seems to me that the surplus market is going to get very
thin in the near future.
Supply and demand dictates that surplus market prices will skyrocket out of
the vast majority of amateur reaches in the coming years.
So what's the next cesium standard to start showing up on eBay in numbers
with life left?
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of rlutwak@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:56 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.
What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to
end
of
life?
Buy another instrument off of Ebay. It'll be cheaper, more accurate, and
last longer than the old one. Plus, it'll have microprocessor control and
thus be cooler and more entertaining for the hackers.
Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to
life?
It can't be done. Trust me, I've done it.
-RL
--
Robert Lutwak, Senior Scientist
Symmetricom - Technology Realization Center
34 Tozer Rd.
Beverly, MA 01915
RLutwak@Symmetricom.com (Business)
Lutwak@Alum.MIT.edu (Personal)
(978) 232-1461 (Desk)
(339) 927-7896 (Mobile)
(978) 927-4099 (FAX)
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Jack Hudler" jack@hudler.org
It seems to me that like all good things they must come to and end.
If all CBTs have a life expectancy that varies depending on the
manufacturer.
What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to
end
of
life?
I for one am certainly not going to buy one, not at those prices!
(Unless I'm retired then that's another story) You only have calculate
the time value of money for that CBT purchase over
the remaining time to retirement; If that doesn't stop you dead in
your tracks then this group really is aptly named! :)
From my perspective, that of wanting to own a Cesium Standard; I don't
really want to layout the monies for something that's going to end of
life
on me shortly (few years) afterwards.
I know that handling (Caesium) Cesium-133 is tricky at best. It's a
heavy alkali metal and contact with moisture is right out!
Other than that it's not terribly difficult to create a safe
environment
to
work with it.
So there must be something else that's considerably more difficult
than opening the tube, recharging the ampoule, resealing it, pulling
an ultra high vacuum and baking it out.
I've not seen any pictures of a naked CBT, still I'm not too worried
about
cracking the tube open if its Pyrex, unless resealing it caused the
cesium
beam collimation to be lost.
Are there if any getters to worry about? If so, how would one ablate
the contaminates of the surface?
Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to
life?
Jack
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
There's no reason that you shouldn't see just as many CsIIIs, Cs4000s, and
5071s on the used market tomorrow as you see 4040s and 506Xs today, just as
soon as they trickle down through the same channels as the older units did.
So far, of the modern cesium standards, I've only seen a few 5071s on the
used market, and they're still priced pretty high, but I'm certain the
others will trickle down before long.
Eventually, they'll be dirt cheap, because a new CsIII costs half of what a
4040 did when new. They'll be more accurate, for reasons that you can read
about in 15 years of FCS proceedings, and they'll be more reliable because
of 15 years of electronics evolution and manufacturing improvements.
Oh, and they'll be more fun, because you'll be able to run Monitor3. :-)
-RL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Hudler" jack@hudler.org
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.
Which begs the question of; who's cesium standard will we buy in surplus
market?
Besides you guys (Symmetricom), who is building Cesium standards that
haven't yet been absorbed by Symmetricom? (note this is not meant to be
derogatory).
Certainly most if not all the 5060, 5061, and 5062 are either dead or
close
to it. Excluding those that have had their CBT's replaced or properly
stored
and regularly pumped down, or just lucky.
The 5071's have yet to make an appearance on eBay at levels I would
consider
paying.
From my POV (which could be myopic), a few CBT manufacturers are
controlling
what remains of this market (no I'm not a conspiracy nut, it's just
business), so it seems to me that the surplus market is going to get very
thin in the near future.
Supply and demand dictates that surplus market prices will skyrocket out
of
the vast majority of amateur reaches in the coming years.
So what's the next cesium standard to start showing up on eBay in numbers
with life left?
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of rlutwak@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:56 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.
What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to end
of
life?
Buy another instrument off of Ebay. It'll be cheaper, more accurate, and
last longer than the old one. Plus, it'll have microprocessor control and
thus be cooler and more entertaining for the hackers.
Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to
life?
It can't be done. Trust me, I've done it.
-RL
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Jack Hudler" jack@hudler.org
It seems to me that like all good things they must come to and end.
If all CBTs have a life expectancy that varies depending on the
manufacturer.
What are we going to do when all the CBTs owned by amateurs start to end
of
life?
I for one am certainly not going to buy one, not at those prices! (Unless
I'm retired then that's another story)
You only have calculate the time value of money for that CBT purchase
over
the remaining time to retirement; If that doesn't stop you dead in your
tracks then this group really is aptly named! :)
From my perspective, that of wanting to own a Cesium Standard; I don't
really want to layout the monies for something that's going to end of
life
on me shortly (few years) afterwards.
I know that handling (Caesium) Cesium-133 is tricky at best. It's a heavy
alkali metal and contact with moisture is right out!
Other than that it's not terribly difficult to create a safe environment
to
work with it.
So there must be something else that's considerably more difficult than
opening the tube, recharging the ampoule, resealing it, pulling an ultra
high vacuum and baking it out.
I've not seen any pictures of a naked CBT, still I'm not too worried
about
cracking the tube open if its Pyrex, unless resealing it caused the
cesium
beam collimation to be lost.
Are there if any getters to worry about? If so, how would one ablate the
contaminates of the surface?
Anyone care to start a discussion on the merits of restoring a CBT to
life?
Jack
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
From: "Robert Lutwak" RLutwak@Comcast.net
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question for the cesium nuts.
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:09:43 -0400
Message-ID: 001301c76817$cd143aa0$6700a8c0@symmetricom.com
Robert,
There's no reason that you shouldn't see just as many CsIIIs, Cs4000s, and
5071s on the used market tomorrow as you see 4040s and 506Xs today, just as
soon as they trickle down through the same channels as the older units did.
Good point!
So far, of the modern cesium standards, I've only seen a few 5071s on the
used market, and they're still priced pretty high, but I'm certain the
others will trickle down before long.
Most seems to be left-overs from closed labs etc. as far as I have seen.
Eventually, they'll be dirt cheap, because a new CsIII costs half of what a
4040 did when new. They'll be more accurate, for reasons that you can read
about in 15 years of FCS proceedings, and they'll be more reliable because
of 15 years of electronics evolution and manufacturing improvements.
Good points. Very good points. Thanks for pointing it out. Kind of obvious, but
you need to recall the obvious at times.
Oh, and they'll be more fun, because you'll be able to run Monitor3. :-)
Indeed. I enjoy doing that. Hmm, which reminds me, I should do something about
setting up a continous logging from my Linux box. Hmm... there is alot of
continous loggings I should be setting up. Time, time... so much to do and so
little time to do it on. Sigh!
Cheers,
Magnus
Robert Lutwak wrote:
There's no reason that you shouldn't see just as many CsIIIs, Cs4000s, and
5071s on the used market tomorrow as you see 4040s and 506Xs today, just as
soon as they trickle down through the same channels as the older units did.
Well, there is one reason, and that is the US DRMO discovered it is cheaper
to destroy test equipment than it is to sell it. So, I doubt we will ever
again see the vast supply of surplus electronics that came from the cold war
ramping down.
-Chuck Harris
In message: 45FB1D31.2030200@erols.com
Chuck Harris cfharris@erols.com writes:
: Robert Lutwak wrote:
: > There's no reason that you shouldn't see just as many CsIIIs, Cs4000s, and
: > 5071s on the used market tomorrow as you see 4040s and 506Xs today, just as
: > soon as they trickle down through the same channels as the older units did.
:
: Well, there is one reason, and that is the US DRMO discovered it is cheaper
: to destroy test equipment than it is to sell it. So, I doubt we will ever
: again see the vast supply of surplus electronics that came from the cold war
: ramping down.
/me wonders how it is cheaper to destory a $25k clock than to sell
it...
Warner
"Jack Hudler" jack@hudler.org wrote:
Which begs the question of; who's cesium standard will we buy in surplus
market?
From my POV (which could be myopic), a few CBT manufacturers are controlling
what remains of this market (no I'm not a conspiracy nut, it's just
business), so it seems to me that the surplus market is going to get very
thin in the near future.
Supply and demand dictates that surplus market prices will skyrocket out of
the vast majority of amateur reaches in the coming years.
So what's the next cesium standard to start showing up on eBay in numbers
with life left?
The last big boom in CBT and other timing equipment was the telecom
boom of the late 90's, and when it went pop (actually even before) a lot
of almost new stuff hit the surplus stream big-time.
The telecom boom-bust cycle there will not be repeated in quite
the same way and I cannot imagine doing it to the same scale, where
startup telcos and equipment manufacturers could get funding to
get hundreds of millions of dollars equipment made without any
paying customers :-).
The next big thing may not be cesium standards, might be something else,
but it'll probably be tied to some other boom-bust cycle in some
tech/business sector.
Each boom-bust cycle will not be exacltly like the one before, the
cold-war military/avionics stuff I grew up with is probably never
going to happen again either. Nor are the R-390A's piled to the
sky, nor are the command sets by the thousands, but in reality none
of that stuff is particularly hard to come by. I just picked up a
couple of command sets that had been sitting in a guy's garage
for 40 years and are exactly like they were when he got them!
Tim.