FLIR and Nauticomp display
Well, an honest, albeit it quick assessment of the FLIR camera I put on
Alanui for this voyage.
In summary, between the camera and the 19" Nauticomp display I spent over
$12,000. The display has proven to be very valuable, but for $6,000 I think
alternatives may make sense. I had a space issue, so I rationalized the
purchase, along with the FLIR, so here is my opinion of the FLIR
Again, this is only after a few nights:
-
There is no doubt it allows you to SEE things you wouldn't SEE if
there is no or low light.
-
You can see the sea state, which is a very valuable thing on a
moonless night, because it improves the feedback loop to your senses.
-
Birds and other wildlife really stand out. Object in the water for
a long time are hardly visible
-
I don't think you can effectively navigate around crab pots. By
the time they come into view they are so close to the boat it's challenging
to react
-
FOG shuts it down completely. I couldn't see past the bow rail.
In summary, I do believe there will come a time when it will "pay for
itself". A dark anchorage, an approaching panga, or someone on the dock are
all scenarios where having the camera will be of great value. As a tool to
avoid obsticals in the water, I'd give it a B grade.
Thanks much, I'll try to get some images of the picture if possible.
Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA
On Sep 1, 2007, at 10:23 PM, Scott Bulger wrote:
FOG shuts it down completely. I couldn't see past the bow rail.
Thats interesting.. I was hoping that this wouldn't be the case at
all. When doing some research and reading many websites one of the
things they touted was the ability to see in fog. I would be
interested in hearing if others "Ken?" have had similar issues with
the FLIR.
John Ford
KK44 Feisty Lady(She may turn into a 48 soon).
Annapolis City Marina
John Ford:
No idea if I'm the Ken you referred to, but your timing is perfect. I'm
sitting at anchor in the San Juans and had fog so thick this morning I
couldn't see my own tender. I have a night vision camera with two different
night modes, "Ultra Low Light", and "thermal imaging".
Both modes were completely useless. There were six boats anchored about 100
yards away, as well as land perhaps 200 yards away. Nothing showed up,
including the bow of my own boat.
I've alerted the manufacturer (NVTI) that I am very disappointed in my unit
(the NVTi 5000). The image in a marina on a clear night isn't bad, but in
real world conditions, I have yet to find it useful. To be fair: It is going
back for service and perhaps when I get it back I will be more impressed.
-Ken Williams
Nordhavn68.com, Sans Souci
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
John Ford
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 1:42 PM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Cc: NordhavnOwners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] FLIR and Nauticomp display
On Sep 1, 2007, at 10:23 PM, Scott Bulger wrote:
FOG shuts it down completely. I couldn't see past the bow rail.
Thats interesting.. I was hoping that this wouldn't be the case at
all. When doing some research and reading many websites one of the
things they touted was the ability to see in fog. I would be
interested in hearing if others "Ken?" have had similar issues with
the FLIR.
John Ford
KK44 Feisty Lady(She may turn into a 48 soon).
Annapolis City Marina
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If you consider how the thermal image camera works, it makes perfect sense
that FOG would present an insurmountable barrier to overcome. Looking
through water at the dew point is pointless. I may be wrong, I would love
to find it's simply a software of service issue, but I'd be surprised
Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA
Currently in Brookings OR waiting out the blow
It is my recollection that the Bradley Fighting Vehicle has "FLIR" that
can see through both smoke and fog. However, the acronym might be slightly
different. Otherwise, everything Scott says tracks with the basic FLIR
concept which is that it sees warm things as contrasted with background
temperature such as a person in cold water.
You just got the 44 and now you are going to morph it into a 48!? Why, John?
Ron Rogers
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Ford" johnpford@mac.com
| On Sep 1, 2007, at 10:23 PM, Scott Bulger wrote:
|
| > FOG shuts it down completely. I couldn't see past the bow rail.
|
| Thats interesting.. I was hoping that this wouldn't be the case at
| all. When doing some research and reading many websites one of the
| things they touted was the ability to see in fog. I would be
| interested in hearing if others "Ken?" have had similar issues with
| the FLIR.
|
| John Ford
| KK44 Feisty Lady(She may turn into a 48 soon).
| Annapolis City Marina
Hey Ken,
I'm a newcomer here but I do have a fair amount of experience with thermal
imaging devices having been a Bradley Fighting Vehicle gunner. My experience
is that thermals don't work in thick fog or smoke. When you think about how
they work, that shouldn't be too surprising. They are looking for heat
contrasts. If you throw a great big wet blanket over everything (fog), you
do two things. First, you cool the surface of whatever maybe out there.
Second, you obscure whatever is out there with cold particles. With smoke
it's a little different, but that shouldn't be encountered much on the water
so I won't go into it.
I don't have a lot of experience with Forward Looking InfraRed (FLIR) except
as it is used on some personal night vision devices. But, I would say, based
on my understanding of how it works, that FLIR would work worse in obscuring
visibilities (fog, smoke, rain and snow) than thermal. This is because the
Infrared part is a beam that is shot out ahead of you allowing the device to
"see" what is illuminated. Infrared is not in the visible spectrum of
course, so you don't see the beam of infrared light that is being projected.
So, if you shoot the beam of infrared light into thick fog, you get the same
thing as you get if you turned on your spot light (only you paid more for
it).
My experience with night vision devices is that they work well when it is
just dark. When you throw in other obstructions like rain or fog, then
thermals are your best bet. When that degrades, you're out of luck. People
with more FLIR experience may have better info on that subject.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
Ken Williams
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:07 PM
To: 'Passagemaking Under Power List'
Cc: NordhavnOwners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] FLIR and Nauticomp display
John Ford:
No idea if I'm the Ken you referred to, but your timing is perfect. I'm
sitting at anchor in the San Juans and had fog so thick this morning I
couldn't see my own tender. I have a night vision camera with two different
night modes, "Ultra Low Light", and "thermal imaging".
Both modes were completely useless. There were six boats anchored about 100
yards away, as well as land perhaps 200 yards away. Nothing showed up,
including the bow of my own boat.
I've alerted the manufacturer (NVTI) that I am very disappointed in my unit
(the NVTi 5000). The image in a marina on a clear night isn't bad, but in
real world conditions, I have yet to find it useful. To be fair: It is going
back for service and perhaps when I get it back I will be more impressed.
-Ken Williams
Nordhavn68.com, Sans Souci
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
John Ford
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 1:42 PM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Cc: NordhavnOwners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] FLIR and Nauticomp display
On Sep 1, 2007, at 10:23 PM, Scott Bulger wrote:
FOG shuts it down completely. I couldn't see past the bow rail.
Thats interesting.. I was hoping that this wouldn't be the case at
all. When doing some research and reading many websites one of the
things they touted was the ability to see in fog. I would be
interested in hearing if others "Ken?" have had similar issues with
the FLIR.
John Ford
KK44 Feisty Lady(She may turn into a 48 soon).
Annapolis City Marina
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Ron,
I was on a BFV for a few years, the original version, it did not have FLIR.
(That is unless the AN/VVS2 for the driver was FLIR, but I don't think so).
The Integrated Sight Unit was 4x/12x Thermal for night vision. In Germany,
we dealt with a lot of fog. The ISU was good until it wasn't. Meaning, in
light to medium fog, we had no issues seeing a engaging targets (I might
note here that seeing a heat signature on a tank or truck is probably
significantly different than seeing the heat signature on a boat especially
a large one. The engine is usually what shows hot.) In heavy fog, we had no
luck at all seeing targets. I spent one evening in a thick fog trying to
identify targets to see if we could reopen a range. I ended up nearly
shooting two deer with my 25mm cannon because they looked like a target.
Smoke was similar. We launched the Bradley self protection package of Mark
VI smoke grenades and had to close the range for an hour until the smoke
dissipated. All we could see with the thermal sight was the smoke grenades
themselves burning.
A brief check of FLIR systems indicates manufacturers have merged infrared
and thermal technologies in some of their systems and kind of muddied the
waters on what each is capable of.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
Ron Rogers
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:12 AM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: Re: [PUP] FLIR and Nauticomp display
It is my recollection that the Bradley Fighting Vehicle has "FLIR" that
can see through both smoke and fog. However, the acronym might be slightly
different. Otherwise, everything Scott says tracks with the basic FLIR
concept which is that it sees warm things as contrasted with background
temperature such as a person in cold water.
You just got the 44 and now you are going to morph it into a 48!? Why, John?
Ron Rogers
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Ford" johnpford@mac.com
| On Sep 1, 2007, at 10:23 PM, Scott Bulger wrote:
|
| > FOG shuts it down completely. I couldn't see past the bow rail.
|
| Thats interesting.. I was hoping that this wouldn't be the case at
| all. When doing some research and reading many websites one of the
| things they touted was the ability to see in fog. I would be
| interested in hearing if others "Ken?" have had similar issues with
| the FLIR.
|
| John Ford
| KK44 Feisty Lady(She may turn into a 48 soon).
| Annapolis City Marina
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Just a clarification... the most popular FLIR device on boats, made
by FLIR Systems, is the Mariner model. They've sold tons of them in
the last two years, mostly on new boats.
Its a swivel, pan, tilt camera that displays composite video on a
monitor in the boat. Costs about $7000. I installed one on my
Nordhavn 55, but in my view, it's completely misnamed -- Forward
Looking Infrared Radar. The manufacturer also says it sees through
smoke and fog "just like the military ones". As we've heard here,
the military units don't do that well.
I say its misnamed because radar units emit a signal that is
reflected from the target. The Mariner FLIR is completely passive,
consisting of an uncooled microbolometer that 'sees' in 8-14 um
wavelength range. Just a camera.
It is not 'fog penetrating' in my experience.
I have found that it will image very well under conditions where you
could normally see with your naked eye, except for the lack of light.
What I mean by that, is that on relatively clear but very dark night,
it will provide a short range picture similar (except for being in
black and white) to what you eye would see in normal daylight. Great
for finding your way to a slip in an unfamiliar marina (even reading
the signs on the end of the docks) or coming into a dark anchorage.
Navigating in a channel is greatly facilitated as well... you can see
the unlighted markers. You can also see waves as they reach your
boat on a dark, stormy night. Not in time to react to a wave, but to
build a 'visual reference' to what you'd see in the daytime. Crab
pots or logs are visible far enough out to avoid if you are moving
below 5 knots when the water is calm (and someone has their eye glued
to the screen. Reaction time is minimal). People in a kayak at night
would be very visible, etc.
Or watching your neighbors on other boats in the marina when they
think they are covered by darkness. Good for security or maybe seeing
some things you shouldn't be seeing. (But I digress).
The drawback is that the brightly glowing black and white screen
wipes out your night vision, so you become dependent on the FLIR once
you start using it. Normal lights become harder to see. But with a 1)
good radar, 2) Nobeltec (or similar with the right charts) eNav, and
3) a FLIR camera, those of us with weakened night vision can operate
at night, never looking out the window.
Whether that is good boating practice is another thing. Frankly, I
avoid night operations in restricted navigation areas. But if I can't
avoid, this trio of electronic gadgets does make up for my not being
able to see very well with nature's eyeballs on a dark night.
John Marshall
N5520-Serendipity
On Sep 5, 2007, at 4:40 AM, Mike & Denise wrote:
Hey Ken,
I'm a newcomer here but I do have a fair amount of experience with
thermal
imaging devices having been a Bradley Fighting Vehicle gunner. My
experience
is that thermals don't work in thick fog or smoke. When you think
about how
they work, that shouldn't be too surprising. They are looking for heat
contrasts. If you throw a great big wet blanket over everything
(fog), you
do two things. First, you cool the surface of whatever maybe out
there.
Second, you obscure whatever is out there with cold particles. With
smoke
it's a little different, but that shouldn't be encountered much on
the water
so I won't go into it.
I don't have a lot of experience with Forward Looking InfraRed
(FLIR) except
as it is used on some personal night vision devices. But, I would
say, based
on my understanding of how it works, that FLIR would work worse in
obscuring
visibilities (fog, smoke, rain and snow) than thermal. This is
because the
Infrared part is a beam that is shot out ahead of you allowing the
device to
"see" what is illuminated. Infrared is not in the visible spectrum of
course, so you don't see the beam of infrared light that is being
projected.
So, if you shoot the beam of infrared light into thick fog, you get
the same
thing as you get if you turned on your spot light (only you paid
more for
it).
My experience with night vision devices is that they work well when
it is
just dark. When you throw in other obstructions like rain or fog, then
thermals are your best bet. When that degrades, you're out of luck.
People
with more FLIR experience may have better info on that subject.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On
Behalf Of
Ken Williams
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 5:07 PM
To: 'Passagemaking Under Power List'
Cc: NordhavnOwners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] FLIR and Nauticomp display
John Ford:
No idea if I'm the Ken you referred to, but your timing is perfect.
I'm
sitting at anchor in the San Juans and had fog so thick this morning I
couldn't see my own tender. I have a night vision camera with two
different
night modes, "Ultra Low Light", and "thermal imaging".
Both modes were completely useless. There were six boats anchored
about 100
yards away, as well as land perhaps 200 yards away. Nothing showed up,
including the bow of my own boat.
I've alerted the manufacturer (NVTI) that I am very disappointed in
my unit
(the NVTi 5000). The image in a marina on a clear night isn't bad,
but in
real world conditions, I have yet to find it useful. To be fair: It
is going
back for service and perhaps when I get it back I will be more
impressed.
-Ken Williams
Nordhavn68.com, Sans Souci
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On
Behalf Of
John Ford
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 1:42 PM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Cc: NordhavnOwners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] FLIR and Nauticomp display
On Sep 1, 2007, at 10:23 PM, Scott Bulger wrote:
FOG shuts it down completely. I couldn't see past the bow rail.
Thats interesting.. I was hoping that this wouldn't be the case at
all. When doing some research and reading many websites one of the
things they touted was the ability to see in fog. I would be
interested in hearing if others "Ken?" have had similar issues with
the FLIR.
John Ford
KK44 Feisty Lady(She may turn into a 48 soon).
Annapolis City Marina
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
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UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
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Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
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Productions,
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Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
Commenting on Johns observations:
John: the most popular FLIR device on boats, made
by FLIR Systems, is the Mariner model. They've sold tons of them in
the last two years, mostly on new boats.
Scott: This is the system I have, added it to Alanui for the FUBAR.
Addition of a Nauticomp with Dim to Red display
John: it's completely misnamed -- Forward Looking Infrared Radar
Scott: I believe it's Forward Looking Infra Red
John: It is not 'fog penetrating' in my experience
Scott: Agree 100%
Scott: Johns description of what you can see is much better than mine, and
I agree 100%
John: The drawback is that the brightly glowing black and white screen
wipes out your night vision, so you become dependent on the FLIR once
you start using it.
Scott: This is true, but I wanted to mention the red mode on Nauticomp, it
does help. However you quickly realize the image you get from the FLIR is
much better than your eye's performance and you find yourself staring into
it.
John: with 1) good radar, 2) Nobeltec (or similar with the right charts)
eNav, and
3) a FLIR camera, those of us with weakened night vision can operate
at night, never looking out the window.
Scott: On our trip from Pt. Angeles to Coos Bay I did find this to be true.
I was much more comfortable watching the RADAR, Coastal Explorer and FLIR,
occasionally glancing out the window to confirm what the RADAR was saying,
that Wayward Wind and Paloma were a comforting mile away, sigh, it was a
great experience.
John: Whether that is good boating practice is another thing. Frankly, I
avoid night operations in restricted navigation areas. But if I can't
avoid, this trio of electronic gadgets does make up for my not being
able to see very well with nature's eyeballs on a dark night.
Scott: I agree with John's perspective regarding doing what works for me.
Some may say "your relying on too much technology and should develop the
skills that got the turn of the century sailors around the world". I'd
suggest if that attitude prevailed there would be far fewer technical
advances available to us to choose from. When you think about it each of
these technologies is complimenting the basic skills of taking a boat from
point A to point B. It's all to easy to say "that's not a prudent practice,
you need to do x, y, and z." I have yet to touch my $1,700 worth of paper
charts and am willing to bet the stack of them that I won't in the next 2
years.
Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA
Hmm.. I waited a while before I answered this because I wanted to
try and answer why were moving up to the Krogen 48. Really it comes
down to changing some things differently then we have currently on
the 44. We started to go down the path of looking at doing some
changes to the office for more space for the second bed, hydraulic
davit, Sat TV, etc.. We looked at how much to do this, thought
about the financial impact, etc.. See part of the issue is that
Krogen has a price guarantee that takes the base plus options and
will apply 100% of that dollar amount toward any new Krogen. If we
added these items to the new boat and upgraded well none of those
items would be considered toward the new boat. We felt it was
prudent to start to look again, we knew our budget constraints a bit
better and what we could handle boat wise and decided to look at a
new 48 or a used 58.
The 48..
Well considering that we've been paying down on the 44, thrown some
extra money in it, and the Krogen gaurantee the price difference was
palatable to get this boat. It had some great features like a 4 A/C
zone(I can control my own temp in my room), glendening power cable,
fuel polishing, bigger appliances, etc. We also would be able to
make some changes that would make the boat more ours, like some
changes in the bed to make it bigger, the kitchen counter, more and
better entertainment system, some changes in the electronics, mount
the dingy athwart-ship, remove the krogen mast(putting in a arch),
and basically making a open seating area up top. We would also add
this time a hydraulic davit, while block and tackle is possible for
me, it's impossible for my folks.
The used 58.. Rini..
I really wish we could have figured out a way to get this one to
work. The boat just swallows up our large extended family, but
between the broker fee's and having to try and move our boat and then
buy theirs, tax's, etc. It just seemed as though there was no way to
get it to work and be in our budget. Still a nice boat though, just
couldn't figure out a way to make it work.
So based off of some of the stuff I wrote above and I'm sure a few
other things that I didn't think of we this past weekend signed a
commitment on the 48. Now it comes down to loan, and selling the
current Feisty Lady. Well, that nervous excitement is still with me
as we start to figure out what to do with the new boat. So in the
future you may see me ask more questions as we go forward on our new
purchase.
John Ford
KK44 Feisty Lady
Annapolis City Marina