You have to be carefull when you hang around with folks that have tender toes, they don't like them stepped on. Hannu was not suggesting or advocating forgoing anything, merely that most of these things are not neccessary or required for a passagemaker. But if you require them that's fine (I certainly do). My take on high end passagemaker type boat owners is about identical to his, made so by what I read, here and in the rags. I could be wrong. It does seem like folks buy these boats, use them a lot, then sell them and come out pretty good financially. It also seems like the company won't tolerate any criticism of it's product, no matter how minor or true (Scott?) it may be, as this may affect resale value, which is a major concern for them due to the fact that it's one of the biggest draws for there customer base. These are just my own assumptions, with no factual basis at all, gut feelings I suppose. I do think that we should come to an agreement on a type and size of boat for our PPM, in a general kinda way. 50 foot, steel, pilothouse, aft bunk, etc. By the way, these discussions have really boosted my favorite list, thanks guys. And, I wear steel toed boots.