Any simple way to get 200 MHz from 10 MHz?
I am looking for a quick & simple way to create a frequency of 200 MHz from
10 MHz. Actually 100, 200, 300 or 400 MHz would all work, but 200 MHz
would be my preference.
The input will be around 0 to +10 dBm and the output needs to be about +13
dBm.
I did think of a x5 & x4 frequency multipliers and amplifiers from
Minicircuits, but I don't know if the increase in phase noise might be a
problem. The truth is I don't know how good it needs to be!
I am trying to find a way of building something that will allow my HP 8720D
VNA (50 MHz-20 GHz) to work below 50 MHz. My idea was to generate a 200 MHz
local oscillator to feed a mixer.
I was thinking of making it so as the VNA sweeps from 200.01-250 MHz, it
possible to analyse a DUT over the frequency range 0.01-50 MHz.
Having the an integer multiple of 100 MHz is good, as it makes reading the
VNA easier. It is simpler to use if the VNA display shows the frequency 200
MHz off than if its 212.5564 MHz wrong.
I would rather not have to program anything to do it, but maybe a VCO and
PLL is the only sensible approach.
I can't seem to find an off the shelf solution which I can lock to a 10 MHz
reference. There are plenty of 200 MHz oscillators around based on a TCXO,
but I can't lock them to the 10 MHz oscillator the VNA uses. Maybe someone
knows of a device I don't know of.
Dave.
In message CANX10hBwdC+wy1vLDWKfuSCoXs5hQd_T-8MRP6VU0PdwLvopHw@mail.gmail.com
, "Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)" writes:
I am looking for a quick & simple way to create a frequency of 200 MHz from
10 MHz.
There's a pretty excellent 10->200 MHz multiplier in your HP5370.
Consider using it for an experiment to see if your idea even works...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
On 28 Sep 2014 11:37, "Poul-Henning Kamp" phk@phk.freebsd.dk wrote:
There's a pretty excellent 10->200 MHz multiplier in your HP5370.
Consider using it for an experiment to see if your idea even works...
I know longer have that - I sold it to someone on this list, then later
regretted selling it!
But I do have a signal generator to test the idea.
I must admit I am not 100% confident I can make it work - at least not in a
way I can get all 4 S parameters.
I think it is relatively easy if you have access to several internal
signals in the VNA, but not so easy if the VNA has a built in test set, and
no access to the switch or directed access to the receivers. There are
commercially available extenders that make a 30 GHz VNA work at 1 THz or
more, but these require access to certain signals I don't have.
I was for example thinking of using photo diodes to detect the position of
the test set, as there's a couple of LEDs on the front panel which indicate
whether the souce is routed to port 1 or 2. Another possibility is perhaps
sensing the RF power, but that could be tricky as one doesn't know what
direction it is flowing. One would with a very high directivity coupler,
but I don't think that is practical. The source in the VNA can be set as
low was -40 dBm, but a DUT could inject +20 dBm into the port. The damage
threshold is +30 dBm. So I don't see an easy way of knowing which port is
energised. Sticking light sensors near LEDs is not very elegant, but I
can't think of a better way!
I use this for my qs1r (125MHz) and to discipline a sound card (24.576MHz).
http://www.valontechnology.com/5007%20synthesizer.html
http://www.valontechnology.com/3008%20divider.html
I actually have one 5007 sandwiched between two 3008's within a Hammond enclosure I built. Has voltage in, 10MHz in and two frequency outputs.
I don't have the setup to measure phase noise but seems to do a decent job for my purposes.
Bill
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 28, 2014, at 5:24 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:
I am looking for a quick & simple way to create a frequency of 200 MHz from
10 MHz. Actually 100, 200, 300 or 400 MHz would all work, but 200 MHz
would be my preference.
The input will be around 0 to +10 dBm and the output needs to be about +13
dBm.
I did think of a x5 & x4 frequency multipliers and amplifiers from
Minicircuits, but I don't know if the increase in phase noise might be a
problem. The truth is I don't know how good it needs to be!
I am trying to find a way of building something that will allow my HP 8720D
VNA (50 MHz-20 GHz) to work below 50 MHz. My idea was to generate a 200 MHz
local oscillator to feed a mixer.
I was thinking of making it so as the VNA sweeps from 200.01-250 MHz, itthi
possible to analyse a DUT over the frequency range 0.01-50 MHz.
Having the an integer multiple of 100 MHz is good, as it makes reading the
VNA easier. It is simpler to use if the VNA display shows the frequency 200
MHz off than if its 212.5564 MHz wrong.
I would rather not have to program anything to do it, but maybe a VCO and
PLL is the only sensible approach.
I can't seem to find an off the shelf solution which I can lock to a 10 MHz
reference. There are plenty of 200 MHz oscillators around based on a TCXO,
but I can't lock them to the 10 MHz oscillator the VNA uses. Maybe someone
knows of a device I don't know of.
Dave.
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and follow the instructions there.
Dave:
Check out w1ghz.org.
Paul has some designs (and boards) that can lock different oscillators
to a reference. He uses a long time constant to manage phase noise.
His objective is good enough performance to generate GPS stabilized LOs
suitable for weak signal narrow-band amateur radio communications. I
would suspect that such would be more than sufficient for what you are
trying to do.
For that matter, in your application, multiplication of a really good
oscillator could probably be good enough, although pay attention to the
filtering to keep out harmonics you don't want. Given this, Paul's setup
may be simpler to execute.
Good luck, and please share what you decide.
Jim
wb4gcs@amsat.org
On 9/28/2014 6:24 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:
I am looking for a quick & simple way to create a frequency of 200 MHz from
10 MHz. Actually 100, 200, 300 or 400 MHz would all work, but 200 MHz
would be my preference.
The input will be around 0 to +10 dBm and the output needs to be about +13
dBm.
I did think of a x5 & x4 frequency multipliers and amplifiers from
Minicircuits, but I don't know if the increase in phase noise might be a
problem. The truth is I don't know how good it needs to be!
I am trying to find a way of building something that will allow my HP 8720D
VNA (50 MHz-20 GHz) to work below 50 MHz. My idea was to generate a 200 MHz
local oscillator to feed a mixer.
I was thinking of making it so as the VNA sweeps from 200.01-250 MHz, it
possible to analyse a DUT over the frequency range 0.01-50 MHz.
Having the an integer multiple of 100 MHz is good, as it makes reading the
VNA easier. It is simpler to use if the VNA display shows the frequency 200
MHz off than if its 212.5564 MHz wrong.
I would rather not have to program anything to do it, but maybe a VCO and
PLL is the only sensible approach.
I can't seem to find an off the shelf solution which I can lock to a 10 MHz
reference. There are plenty of 200 MHz oscillators around based on a TCXO,
but I can't lock them to the 10 MHz oscillator the VNA uses. Maybe someone
knows of a device I don't know of.
Dave.
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If you can use 90 MHz, .....
The A21- 90 MHz/10 MHz Board in an older HP3585A SA actually works quite
nicely in 'stand-alone' mode. ( It brings lots of the 'glue' needed for
one of my analog GPSDOs.)
The schematic is readily available showing the HP 10 MHz-to-90 MHz
multiplier design.
I used this A21 board in a simple GPSDO along with an HP-10811 oscillator.
These pwbs are often available on eBay real cheap.
The board has ECL on it, so you have to supply some negative PS, ...but the
90 MHz multiplier is there, along with some lower frequency outputs (100
KHz), making it easier to interface to the 10 KHz -output from a GPS.
Don
KG5CID
---================
-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 5:24 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Any simple way to get 200 MHz from 10 MHz?
I am looking for a quick & simple way to create a frequency of 200 MHz from
10 MHz. Actually 100, 200, 300 or 400 MHz would all work, but 200 MHz
would be my preference.
The input will be around 0 to +10 dBm and the output needs to be about +13
dBm.
I did think of a x5 & x4 frequency multipliers and amplifiers from
Minicircuits, but I don't know if the increase in phase noise might be a
problem. The truth is I don't know how good it needs to be!
I am trying to find a way of building something that will allow my HP 8720D
VNA (50 MHz-20 GHz) to work below 50 MHz. My idea was to generate a 200 MHz
local oscillator to feed a mixer.
I was thinking of making it so as the VNA sweeps from 200.01-250 MHz, it
possible to analyse a DUT over the frequency range 0.01-50 MHz.
Having the an integer multiple of 100 MHz is good, as it makes reading the
VNA easier. It is simpler to use if the VNA display shows the frequency 200
MHz off than if its 212.5564 MHz wrong.
I would rather not have to program anything to do it, but maybe a VCO and
PLL is the only sensible approach.
I can't seem to find an off the shelf solution which I can lock to a 10 MHz
reference. There are plenty of 200 MHz oscillators around based on a TCXO,
but I can't lock them to the 10 MHz oscillator the VNA uses. Maybe someone
knows of a device I don't know of.
Dave.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 28 September 2014 14:49, dlewis dlewis6767@austin.rr.com wrote:
If you can use 90 MHz, .....
No, I would really like to keep it an integer multiple of 100 MHz.
On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 3:24 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
I am looking for a quick & simple way to create a frequency of 200 MHz from
10 MHz. Actually 100, 200, 300 or 400 MHz would all work, but 200 MHz
would be my preference.
You could build a GPSDO that uses a 100 MHz OCXO rather than the more
common 10 MHz OCXO. All you'd need is to add a digital divide by 10 chip
to the circuit. GPSDOs have gotten really easy to build of late, just 2 or
3 chips.
You could also phase lock a 100 Mhz OCXO or TCXO to your to your 10 Mhz
reference.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
On 28 September 2014 12:40, Bill Dailey docdailey@gmail.com wrote:
I use this for my qs1r (125MHz) and to discipline a sound card (24.576MHz).
http://www.valontechnology.com/5007%20synthesizer.html
http://www.valontechnology.com/3008%20divider.html
I actually have one 5007 sandwiched between two 3008's within a Hammond enclosure I built. Has voltage in, 10MHz in and two frequency outputs.
I don't have the setup to measure phase noise but seems to do a decent job for my purposes.
Bill
Whilst not cheap, that is an interesting little device. The fact it
can work to 4.4 GHz, does in fact mean it would be possible to extend
the VNA up to 24.4 GHz at the high end, which would be potentially
useful as it covers the 12 mm. Not my immediate priority, but the fact
there are two osciallators, and they cover a wide range, does make it
interesting.
On 28 September 2014 13:14, Jim Sanford wb4gcs@wb4gcs.org wrote:
Dave:
Check out w1ghz.org.
Paul has some designs (and boards) that can lock different oscillators to a
reference. He uses a long time constant to manage phase noise.
Thanks, I have dropped him an email. He has one at 200 MHz, which is
what I was looking for.
Dave