BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:07 PM
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
BC
Brooke Clarke
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:18 PM
Hi Bob:
Done it before - No.
Have done 0.05" (1.27mm) pitch and it's easy.
Done it / last 2 years - No.
Set up to do it - No.
I don't have a feel for the level of difficulty in working with 0.5mm
pitch parts. For example can you do it with a soldering iron (like I
use for 0.05" pitch parts), or is some other method needed? Will hot
air work or is an oven necessary?
http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi Bob:
Done it before - No.
Have done 0.05" (1.27mm) pitch and it's easy.
Done it / last 2 years - No.
Set up to do it - No.
I don't have a feel for the level of difficulty in working with 0.5mm
pitch parts. For example can you do it with a soldering iron (like I
use for 0.05" pitch parts), or is some other method needed? Will hot
air work or is an oven necessary?
http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
> projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
> as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
>
>
>
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
> the end of:
>
>
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
>
>
>
> I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
> just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
> $100.
>
>
>
> I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
> each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
> part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
> there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
> solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
> you $250 to $500.
>
>
>
> I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
> certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
> buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
> together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
> different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
> also need to get it working after you assemble it.
>
>
>
> Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
> (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
> it today (at home)?
>
>
>
> I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
> could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
>
>
>
>
> I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
>
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
>
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
> counts as a no).
>
>
>
> Any more votes?
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
DC
David C. Partridge
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:19 PM
Well, if you ship a paste mask with the PCB I've no problem at all, but that's not likely to happen, so it's down to hand work. I've done that before now and while it's not the easiest job, it's quite doable with a microscope or the eyes of an eagle.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: 25 March 2011 17:08
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for $100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need / could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Well, if you ship a paste mask with the PCB I've no problem at all, but that's not likely to happen, so it's down to hand work. I've done that before now and while it's not the easiest job, it's quite doable with a microscope or the eyes of an eagle.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: 25 March 2011 17:08
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for $100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need / could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
BB
Bob Bownes
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:25 PM
Here are my answers:
Done it before? - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years? - Yes. In last 24 hours actually.
Set up to do it in the basement? - Yes. Can do by hand, hot air rework
tools, or reflow oven.
Would I buy one? - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time? - Yes, other
projects pending of course.
And a +1 on the solder paste mask. 7-15x microscope makes it easy.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:19 PM, David C. Partridge
david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk wrote:
Well, if you ship a paste mask with the PCB I've no problem at all, but that's not likely to happen, so it's down to hand work. I've done that before now and while it's not the easiest job, it's quite doable with a microscope or the eyes of an eagle.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: 25 March 2011 17:08
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for $100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need / could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Here are my answers:
Done it before? - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years? - Yes. In last 24 hours actually.
Set up to do it in the basement? - Yes. Can do by hand, hot air rework
tools, or reflow oven.
Would I buy one? - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time? - Yes, other
projects pending of course.
And a +1 on the solder paste mask. 7-15x microscope makes it easy.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:19 PM, David C. Partridge
<david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:
> Well, if you ship a paste mask with the PCB I've no problem at all, but that's not likely to happen, so it's down to hand work. I've done that before now and while it's not the easiest job, it's quite doable with a microscope or the eyes of an eagle.
>
> Dave
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
> Sent: 25 March 2011 17:08
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
>
>
>
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at the end of:
>
>
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
>
>
>
> I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for $100.
>
>
>
> I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost you $250 to $500.
>
>
>
> I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you also need to get it working after you assemble it.
>
>
>
> Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do it today (at home)?
>
>
>
> I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need / could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
>
>
>
>
> I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
>
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
>
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That counts as a no).
>
>
>
> Any more votes?
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:26 PM
Hi
You can indeed to it with a soldering iron. You need to have the right iron
and some skill to do it without messing things up. There are many other ways
you could do it.
To clarify a bit:
The layout will not be very forgiving of re-doing stuff a couple of times.
It's likely there would be narrow traces and stuff going between leads. To
make it work you would want to get it right the first time on the vast
majority of the connections.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Brooke Clarke
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:18 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi Bob:
Done it before - No.
Have done 0.05" (1.27mm) pitch and it's easy.
Done it / last 2 years - No.
Set up to do it - No.
I don't have a feel for the level of difficulty in working with 0.5mm
pitch parts. For example can you do it with a soldering iron (like I
use for 0.05" pitch parts), or is some other method needed? Will hot
air work or is an oven necessary?
http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
You can indeed to it with a soldering iron. You need to have the right iron
and some skill to do it without messing things up. There are many other ways
you could do it.
To clarify a bit:
The layout will not be very forgiving of re-doing stuff a couple of times.
It's likely there would be narrow traces and stuff going between leads. To
make it work you would want to get it right the first time on the vast
majority of the connections.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Brooke Clarke
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:18 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi Bob:
Done it before - No.
Have done 0.05" (1.27mm) pitch and it's easy.
Done it / last 2 years - No.
Set up to do it - No.
I don't have a feel for the level of difficulty in working with 0.5mm
pitch parts. For example can you do it with a soldering iron (like I
use for 0.05" pitch parts), or is some other method needed? Will hot
air work or is an oven necessary?
http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
> projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
> as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
>
>
>
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
> the end of:
>
>
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
>
>
>
> I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
> just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
> $100.
>
>
>
> I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
> each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
> part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
> there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this
to
> solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
> you $250 to $500.
>
>
>
> I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
> certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would
you
> buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
> together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
> different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes
you
> also need to get it working after you assemble it.
>
>
>
> Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
> (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to
do
> it today (at home)?
>
>
>
> I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
> could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of
this.
>
>
>
>
> I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
>
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
>
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
> counts as a no).
>
>
>
> Any more votes?
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:29 PM
Hi
I don't see a way to reasonably ship a solder mask with each board. I agree
it would be neat, but it would cost ...
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Bownes
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:25 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Here are my answers:
Done it before? - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years? - Yes. In last 24 hours actually.
Set up to do it in the basement? - Yes. Can do by hand, hot air rework
tools, or reflow oven.
Would I buy one? - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time? - Yes, other
projects pending of course.
And a +1 on the solder paste mask. 7-15x microscope makes it easy.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:19 PM, David C. Partridge
david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk wrote:
Well, if you ship a paste mask with the PCB I've no problem at all, but
that's not likely to happen, so it's down to hand work. I've done that
before now and while it's not the easiest job, it's quite doable with a
microscope or the eyes of an eagle.
Sent: 25 March 2011 17:08
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
I don't see a way to reasonably ship a solder mask with each board. I agree
it would be neat, but it would cost ...
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Bownes
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:25 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Here are my answers:
Done it before? - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years? - Yes. In last 24 hours actually.
Set up to do it in the basement? - Yes. Can do by hand, hot air rework
tools, or reflow oven.
Would I buy one? - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time? - Yes, other
projects pending of course.
And a +1 on the solder paste mask. 7-15x microscope makes it easy.
Bob
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:19 PM, David C. Partridge
<david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:
> Well, if you ship a paste mask with the PCB I've no problem at all, but
that's not likely to happen, so it's down to hand work. I've done that
before now and while it's not the easiest job, it's quite doable with a
microscope or the eyes of an eagle.
>
> Dave
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Camp
> Sent: 25 March 2011 17:08
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
>
>
>
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
>
>
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
>
>
>
> I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
>
>
>
> I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
>
>
>
> I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
>
>
>
> Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
>
>
>
> I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
>
>
>
>
> I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
>
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
>
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
>
>
>
> Any more votes?
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
JH
Javier Herrero
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:29 PM
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - and from quite longer than that...
Set up to do it in the basement - yes
Would I buy one - I'm afraid I don't fully understand your question, but I routinely buy and solder 0.5mm spacing TQFPs (counts as yes?)
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - define reasonable :) but yes, quite fast...
Hi
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - and from quite longer than that...
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - I'm afraid I don't fully understand your question, but I routinely buy and solder 0.5mm spacing TQFPs (counts as yes?)
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - define reasonable :) but yes, quite fast...
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:33 PM
Hi
The "would you buy one?" question is this:
Some (like me) buy things and then put them on the shelf hoping for
"inspiration" (or desperation) to strike. The more complex the assembly, the
less likely they are to complete. Others simply are not willing to spend
over say $100 on any sort of kit.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Javier Herrero
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:29 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - and from quite longer than
Set up to do it in the basement - yes
Would I buy one - I'm afraid I don't fully understand your question, but I
routinely buy and solder 0.5mm spacing TQFPs (counts as yes?)
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - define reasonable :)
Hi
The "would you buy one?" question is this:
Some (like me) buy things and then put them on the shelf hoping for
"inspiration" (or desperation) to strike. The more complex the assembly, the
less likely they are to complete. Others simply are not willing to spend
over say $100 on any sort of kit.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Javier Herrero
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:29 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - and from quite longer than
that...
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - I'm afraid I don't fully understand your question, but I
routinely buy and solder 0.5mm spacing TQFPs (counts as yes?)
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - define reasonable :)
but yes, quite fast...
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
HS
Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH)
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:36 PM
Hi,
I have done this sort of stuff multiple times, and am prepared to do it again (in the basement) as long as my eyes are good enough and my hands steady.
0.5 mm pin pitch is certainly doable with a soldering iron. The trick is to not be afraid of shorting pins. I often pull a reasonable amount of solder across all pins, which shorts them all together, and remove the excess solder with a wick afterwards. It needs a bit of practicing, so best obtain a few cheap components that can be destroyed. Particularly fine tips are not necessary on the soldering iron. They could even be counterproductive.
The thing I can't handle at present is ball grid arrays and other parts that need solder underneath. More and more parts are coming in those packages exclusively, and I may have to experiment with ovens...
I work with passives down to 0603. I have had to work with 0402, and found them a pain. I couldn't handle 0402 in any reasonable way except when using a hot air (or hot gas) soldering iron.
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Bob Camp
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. März 2011 18:08
An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Betreff: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi,
I have done this sort of stuff multiple times, and am prepared to do it again (in the basement) as long as my eyes are good enough and my hands steady.
0.5 mm pin pitch is certainly doable with a soldering iron. The trick is to not be afraid of shorting pins. I often pull a reasonable amount of solder across all pins, which shorts them all together, and remove the excess solder with a wick afterwards. It needs a bit of practicing, so best obtain a few cheap components that can be destroyed. Particularly fine tips are not necessary on the soldering iron. They could even be counterproductive.
The thing I can't handle at present is ball grid arrays and other parts that need solder underneath. More and more parts are coming in those packages exclusively, and I may have to experiment with ovens...
I work with passives down to 0603. I have had to work with 0402, and found them a pain. I couldn't handle 0402 in any reasonable way except when using a hot air (or hot gas) soldering iron.
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Bob Camp
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. März 2011 18:08
An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Betreff: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:40 PM
Hi
That sounds like a "yes" to me. Eventually I'll do a tally and I sort of
need to be sure I have people in the right buckets.
This is by no means a sign up to buy any specific project or kit. The
assumption is that what ever it is - it's interesting to you. The only
"blocks" to buying one would be cost of the raw parts and assembly.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:19 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Well, if you ship a paste mask with the PCB I've no problem at all, but
that's not likely to happen, so it's down to hand work. I've done that
before now and while it's not the easiest job, it's quite doable with a
microscope or the eyes of an eagle.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: 25 March 2011 17:08
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
That sounds like a "yes" to me. Eventually I'll do a tally and I sort of
need to be sure I have people in the right buckets.
This is by no means a sign up to buy any specific project or kit. The
assumption is that what ever it is - it's interesting to you. The only
"blocks" to buying one would be cost of the raw parts and assembly.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:19 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Well, if you ship a paste mask with the PCB I've no problem at all, but
that's not likely to happen, so it's down to hand work. I've done that
before now and while it's not the easiest job, it's quite doable with a
microscope or the eyes of an eagle.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: 25 March 2011 17:08
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
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_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to
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JL
Jim Lux
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:45 PM
My answers below (cursing iPad mail reader for this kind of thing)
On Mar 25, 2011, at 10:07 AM, "Bob Camp" lists@rtty.us wrote:
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it?
Nope. I'm a buy the board already assembled kind of guy. I'm willing to cobble up enclosures or double sided foam tape it to a cookie sheet for breadboarding, but I guess I've sort of turned into a system integrator
If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
At this point, even for hobby stuff, I'm willing to pay for someone else to do assembly. For instance, I don't install my own coax connectors. To the point where I get a prebuilt cable and cut it in half to get two coax pigtails to solder to something.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
My answers below (cursing iPad mail reader for this kind of thing)
On Mar 25, 2011, at 10:07 AM, "Bob Camp" <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
>
> I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
> certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
> buy a bag with the parts all in it?
Nope. I'm a buy the board already assembled kind of guy. I'm willing to cobble up enclosures or double sided foam tape it to a cookie sheet for breadboarding, but I guess I've sort of turned into a system integrator
> If you do are you going to put it
> together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
> different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
> also need to get it working after you assemble it.
At this point, even for hobby stuff, I'm willing to pay for someone else to do assembly. For instance, I don't install my own coax connectors. To the point where I get a prebuilt cable and cut it in half to get two coax pigtails to solder to something.
>
> Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
> (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
> it today (at home)?
>
Yes, no, no
>
BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:49 PM
Hi
What ever technique has worked for you in the past is "legal" as far as this
poll is concerned. I suspect we could go on for quite a while about what is
the best or worst approach.
For the sake of this poll, let's leave the 0402's out. There certainly are
issues there, but I'd rather not get them into this. There likely would be
surface mount passives on the board, but for now let's say they are "big"
without trying to define that. We could ultimately run another poll.
Obviously the idea of all this is to come up with some sort of design
guidelines for projects. That's going to take a bit more work than looking
at just one part.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH)
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:37 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi,
I have done this sort of stuff multiple times, and am prepared to do it
again (in the basement) as long as my eyes are good enough and my hands
steady.
0.5 mm pin pitch is certainly doable with a soldering iron. The trick is to
not be afraid of shorting pins. I often pull a reasonable amount of solder
across all pins, which shorts them all together, and remove the excess
solder with a wick afterwards. It needs a bit of practicing, so best obtain
a few cheap components that can be destroyed. Particularly fine tips are not
necessary on the soldering iron. They could even be counterproductive.
The thing I can't handle at present is ball grid arrays and other parts that
need solder underneath. More and more parts are coming in those packages
exclusively, and I may have to experiment with ovens...
I work with passives down to 0603. I have had to work with 0402, and found
them a pain. I couldn't handle 0402 in any reasonable way except when using
a hot air (or hot gas) soldering iron.
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im
Auftrag von Bob Camp
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. März 2011 18:08
An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Betreff: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
What ever technique has worked for you in the past is "legal" as far as this
poll is concerned. I suspect we could go on for quite a while about what is
the best or worst approach.
For the sake of this poll, let's leave the 0402's out. There certainly are
issues there, but I'd rather not get them into this. There likely would be
surface mount passives on the board, but for now let's say they are "big"
without trying to define that. We could ultimately run another poll.
Obviously the idea of all this is to come up with some sort of design
guidelines for projects. That's going to take a bit more work than looking
at just one part.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH)
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:37 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi,
I have done this sort of stuff multiple times, and am prepared to do it
again (in the basement) as long as my eyes are good enough and my hands
steady.
0.5 mm pin pitch is certainly doable with a soldering iron. The trick is to
not be afraid of shorting pins. I often pull a reasonable amount of solder
across all pins, which shorts them all together, and remove the excess
solder with a wick afterwards. It needs a bit of practicing, so best obtain
a few cheap components that can be destroyed. Particularly fine tips are not
necessary on the soldering iron. They could even be counterproductive.
The thing I can't handle at present is ball grid arrays and other parts that
need solder underneath. More and more parts are coming in those packages
exclusively, and I may have to experiment with ovens...
I work with passives down to 0603. I have had to work with 0402, and found
them a pain. I couldn't handle 0402 in any reasonable way except when using
a hot air (or hot gas) soldering iron.
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im
Auftrag von Bob Camp
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. März 2011 18:08
An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Betreff: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
CA
Chris Albertson
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:50 PM
Would I take on a project with those parts? Maybe but eBay places an
upper limit on what I'll spend to build something. I'd much rather
buy a used HP counter for $250 than spend $500 to build one. You'd
have to get the build cost to less than 1/2 the buy cost.
0.5 mm is not that hard to hand solder if you have the right equipment
and optical magnification but with a 100 pin part it would take a long
time and there is the risk of damaging an expensive part. Better I
think to find someone with a re-flow oven
Or for project to be built in small number of under 50 or so you can
base the project on some kind of FPGA development board that can be
bought off the shelf preassembled. There are many of these just as
an example look at this one
http://www.gadgetfactory.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=18
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Would I take on a project with those parts? Maybe but eBay places an
upper limit on what I'll spend to build something. I'd much rather
buy a used HP counter for $250 than spend $500 to build one. You'd
have to get the build cost to less than 1/2 the buy cost.
0.5 mm is not that hard to hand solder if you have the right equipment
and optical magnification but with a 100 pin part it would take a long
time and there is the risk of damaging an expensive part. Better I
think to find someone with a re-flow oven
Or for project to be built in small number of under 50 or so you can
base the project on some kind of FPGA development board that can be
bought off the shelf preassembled. There are many of these just as
an example look at this one
http://www.gadgetfactory.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=18
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
> projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
> as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
>
>
>
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
> the end of:
>
>
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
>
>
>
> I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
> just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
> $100.
>
>
>
> I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
> each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
> part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
> there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
> solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
> you $250 to $500.
>
>
>
> I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
> certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
> buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
> together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
> different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
> also need to get it working after you assemble it.
>
>
>
> Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
> (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
> it today (at home)?
>
>
>
> I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
> could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
>
>
>
>
> I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
>
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
>
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
> counts as a no).
>
>
>
> Any more votes?
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
--
=====
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:50 PM
Hi
At least the iPad doesn't put in double line feeds all over the place.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Lux
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:46 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
My answers below (cursing iPad mail reader for this kind of thing)
On Mar 25, 2011, at 10:07 AM, "Bob Camp" lists@rtty.us wrote:
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would
buy a bag with the parts all in it?
Nope. I'm a buy the board already assembled kind of guy. I'm willing to
cobble up enclosures or double sided foam tape it to a cookie sheet for
breadboarding, but I guess I've sort of turned into a system integrator
If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
At this point, even for hobby stuff, I'm willing to pay for someone else to
do assembly. For instance, I don't install my own coax connectors. To the
point where I get a prebuilt cable and cut it in half to get two coax
pigtails to solder to something.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to
Hi
At least the iPad doesn't put in double line feeds all over the place.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Lux
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:46 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
My answers below (cursing iPad mail reader for this kind of thing)
On Mar 25, 2011, at 10:07 AM, "Bob Camp" <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
>
> I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
> certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would
you
> buy a bag with the parts all in it?
Nope. I'm a buy the board already assembled kind of guy. I'm willing to
cobble up enclosures or double sided foam tape it to a cookie sheet for
breadboarding, but I guess I've sort of turned into a system integrator
> If you do are you going to put it
> together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
> different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes
you
> also need to get it working after you assemble it.
At this point, even for hobby stuff, I'm willing to pay for someone else to
do assembly. For instance, I don't install my own coax connectors. To the
point where I get a prebuilt cable and cut it in half to get two coax
pigtails to solder to something.
>
> Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
> (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to
do
> it today (at home)?
>
Yes, no, no
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 5:56 PM
Hi
I'm guessing that's a yes to each of the questions in the poll.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Greg Broburg
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
I have assembled hundreds of such parts using only a
low cost Antex 15W soldering iron, some fine diameter
solder and some solder wick. A hot air gun makes
removal very easy and I have never damaged a PCB
using the hot air removal method.
Solder diameter should be .010 - .015 mils Large
diameter solder is a problem with this method.
To put a .5mm pitch part down without any fancy stuff
1: Carefully align the part with the pads, double check
that Pin 1 is in the correct alignment. Now solder a
couple of pads at two opposite corners to stabilize the
part. Expect to solder two to four pads at the corners
and that they will be shorted. Do not worry if you have
shorts between closely spaced pads. We will fix that later.
2: If the pad alignments are not perfect then reheat one
of the two opposite corner pad (s) and move the part
until it is correctly aligned.
3: When all pads are aligned then carefully solder all of
the leads to all of the pads. Do not worry if some pads
are shorted. do not worry if all pads are shorted.
4: Using .025 mil solder wick dipped in RMA solder flux
if not already fluxed, desolder all of the pads. In other
words, the solder wick is not effective at removing all of
the solder. What is left from surface tension will be the
correct amount.
5: Using a QTip with alcohol / acetone / dope thinner
clean all pads of flux. Do this twice or more each time
with a fresh QTip tip.
6: Inspect using magnification if necessary, to verify no
shorts or solder balls between pads. If so, use the solder
wick to remove the short.
I have done this hundreds of times.
Greg
With regards to soldering .5mm pitch parts:
I've never done that professionally or as a hobby.
I don't see myself doing this at home.
On 3/25/2011 11:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
I'm guessing that's a yes to each of the questions in the poll.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Greg Broburg
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
I have assembled hundreds of such parts using only a
low cost Antex 15W soldering iron, some fine diameter
solder and some solder wick. A hot air gun makes
removal very easy and I have never damaged a PCB
using the hot air removal method.
Solder diameter should be .010 - .015 mils Large
diameter solder is a problem with this method.
To put a .5mm pitch part down without any fancy stuff
1: Carefully align the part with the pads, double check
that Pin 1 is in the correct alignment. Now solder a
couple of pads at two opposite corners to stabilize the
part. Expect to solder two to four pads at the corners
and that they will be shorted. Do not worry if you have
shorts between closely spaced pads. We will fix that later.
2: If the pad alignments are not perfect then reheat one
of the two opposite corner pad (s) and move the part
until it is correctly aligned.
3: When all pads are aligned then carefully solder all of
the leads to all of the pads. Do not worry if some pads
are shorted. do not worry if all pads are shorted.
4: Using .025 mil solder wick dipped in RMA solder flux
if not already fluxed, desolder all of the pads. In other
words, the solder wick is not effective at removing all of
the solder. What is left from surface tension will be the
correct amount.
5: Using a QTip with alcohol / acetone / dope thinner
clean all pads of flux. Do this twice or more each time
with a fresh QTip tip.
6: Inspect using magnification if necessary, to verify no
shorts or solder balls between pads. If so, use the solder
wick to remove the short.
I have done this hundreds of times.
Greg
> With regards to soldering .5mm pitch parts:
>
> I've never done that professionally or as a hobby.
>
> I don't see myself doing this at home.
On 3/25/2011 11:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
> projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
> as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
>
>
>
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
> the end of:
>
>
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
>
>
>
> I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
> just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
> $100.
>
>
>
> I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
> each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
> part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
> there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this
to
> solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
> you $250 to $500.
>
>
>
> I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
> certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would
you
> buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
> together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
> different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes
you
> also need to get it working after you assemble it.
>
>
>
> Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
> (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to
do
> it today (at home)?
>
>
>
> I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
> could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of
this.
>
>
>
>
> I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
>
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
>
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
> counts as a no).
>
>
>
> Any more votes?
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 6:03 PM
My first answer would be heck no. Enough trouble with 16 pin chips.
BUT now you have set the bait. A cesium standard.
That would grab my attention. So indeed if there were not a time limit, I
would invest in a very small tip iron and the correct solder. I have come to
the conclusion also that the tips Greg suggests can work. I simply have
equipment thats to large. (Funny I stayed clear of that hair size solder at
the Flea markets) This will be resolved I hope at the first MIT flea or
heaven forbid really ordering new.
Second those days of soldering might be non-coffee days. :-)
I have done some crazy stuff if the price to value ratio is correct.
Regards
Paul
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
I'm guessing that's a yes to each of the questions in the poll.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Greg Broburg
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
I have assembled hundreds of such parts using only a
low cost Antex 15W soldering iron, some fine diameter
solder and some solder wick. A hot air gun makes
removal very easy and I have never damaged a PCB
using the hot air removal method.
Solder diameter should be .010 - .015 mils Large
diameter solder is a problem with this method.
To put a .5mm pitch part down without any fancy stuff
1: Carefully align the part with the pads, double check
that Pin 1 is in the correct alignment. Now solder a
couple of pads at two opposite corners to stabilize the
part. Expect to solder two to four pads at the corners
and that they will be shorted. Do not worry if you have
shorts between closely spaced pads. We will fix that later.
2: If the pad alignments are not perfect then reheat one
of the two opposite corner pad (s) and move the part
until it is correctly aligned.
3: When all pads are aligned then carefully solder all of
the leads to all of the pads. Do not worry if some pads
are shorted. do not worry if all pads are shorted.
4: Using .025 mil solder wick dipped in RMA solder flux
if not already fluxed, desolder all of the pads. In other
words, the solder wick is not effective at removing all of
the solder. What is left from surface tension will be the
correct amount.
5: Using a QTip with alcohol / acetone / dope thinner
clean all pads of flux. Do this twice or more each time
with a fresh QTip tip.
6: Inspect using magnification if necessary, to verify no
shorts or solder balls between pads. If so, use the solder
wick to remove the short.
I have done this hundreds of times.
Greg
With regards to soldering .5mm pitch parts:
I've never done that professionally or as a hobby.
I don't see myself doing this at home.
On 3/25/2011 11:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
My first answer would be heck no. Enough trouble with 16 pin chips.
BUT now you have set the bait. A cesium standard.
That would grab my attention. So indeed if there were not a time limit, I
would invest in a very small tip iron and the correct solder. I have come to
the conclusion also that the tips Greg suggests can work. I simply have
equipment thats to large. (Funny I stayed clear of that hair size solder at
the Flea markets) This will be resolved I hope at the first MIT flea or
heaven forbid really ordering new.
Second those days of soldering might be non-coffee days. :-)
I have done some crazy stuff if the price to value ratio is correct.
Regards
Paul
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm guessing that's a yes to each of the questions in the poll.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Greg Broburg
> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:53 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
>
> I have assembled hundreds of such parts using only a
> low cost Antex 15W soldering iron, some fine diameter
> solder and some solder wick. A hot air gun makes
> removal very easy and I have never damaged a PCB
> using the hot air removal method.
>
> Solder diameter should be .010 - .015 mils Large
> diameter solder is a problem with this method.
>
> To put a .5mm pitch part down without any fancy stuff
>
> 1: Carefully align the part with the pads, double check
> that Pin 1 is in the correct alignment. Now solder a
> couple of pads at two opposite corners to stabilize the
> part. Expect to solder two to four pads at the corners
> and that they will be shorted. Do not worry if you have
> shorts between closely spaced pads. We will fix that later.
>
> 2: If the pad alignments are not perfect then reheat one
> of the two opposite corner pad (s) and move the part
> until it is correctly aligned.
>
> 3: When all pads are aligned then carefully solder all of
> the leads to all of the pads. Do not worry if some pads
> are shorted. do not worry if all pads are shorted.
>
> 4: Using .025 mil solder wick dipped in RMA solder flux
> if not already fluxed, desolder all of the pads. In other
> words, the solder wick is not effective at removing all of
> the solder. What is left from surface tension will be the
> correct amount.
>
> 5: Using a QTip with alcohol / acetone / dope thinner
> clean all pads of flux. Do this twice or more each time
> with a fresh QTip tip.
>
> 6: Inspect using magnification if necessary, to verify no
> shorts or solder balls between pads. If so, use the solder
> wick to remove the short.
>
> I have done this hundreds of times.
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> > With regards to soldering .5mm pitch parts:
> >
> > I've never done that professionally or as a hobby.
> >
> > I don't see myself doing this at home.
>
>
> On 3/25/2011 11:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> >
> >
> > Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
> > projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it
> out
> > as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
> >
> >
> >
> > How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> > spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
> > the end of:
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume
> it's
> > just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard
> for
> > $100.
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
> > each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
> > part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
> > there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this
> to
> > solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
> > you $250 to $500.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
> > certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would
> you
> > buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
> > together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
> > different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes
> you
> > also need to get it working after you assemble it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
> > (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to
> do
> > it today (at home)?
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
> > could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of
> this.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
> >
> >
> >
> > Done it in the before - yes.
> >
> >
> >
> > Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
> >
> >
> >
> > Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
> >
> >
> >
> > Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a
> yes).
> >
> >
> >
> > Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
> > counts as a no).
> >
> >
> >
> > Any more votes?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
MT
michael taylor
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 6:05 PM
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it?
The example was a LQFP 144-pins.
Done it before - no, but I have worked with SMT such as 18-pins SOIC
(1.27 mm) and 24 pin SSOP (0.65mm), so nearly but fewer pins
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - SMT - yes, 0.5mm pitch - no
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well, lack ideal
magnification
Would I buy one - most likely, cost/timing dependent
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - 50-80%
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it?
The example was a LQFP 144-pins.
Done it before - no, but I have worked with SMT such as 18-pins SOIC
(1.27 mm) and 24 pin SSOP (0.65mm), so nearly but fewer pins
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - SMT - yes, 0.5mm pitch - no
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well, lack ideal
magnification
Would I buy one - most likely, cost/timing dependent
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - 50-80%
BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 6:08 PM
Hi
For the sake of the poll, let's say it wasn't something crazy valuable. Pick
a piece of gear that's already on your bench (or that could easily be) and
assume we're talking about that. The cost to buy ratio may or may not be in
favor of the kit. A lot would depend on how much of a shopper you are.
Put another way, it's interesting enough to make you buy it, but not
interesting enough to go nuts over it.
On that basis, I'll put you down as a no to the question set.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:03 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
My first answer would be heck no. Enough trouble with 16 pin chips.
BUT now you have set the bait. A cesium standard.
That would grab my attention. So indeed if there were not a time limit, I
would invest in a very small tip iron and the correct solder. I have come to
the conclusion also that the tips Greg suggests can work. I simply have
equipment thats to large. (Funny I stayed clear of that hair size solder at
the Flea markets) This will be resolved I hope at the first MIT flea or
heaven forbid really ordering new.
Second those days of soldering might be non-coffee days. :-)
I have done some crazy stuff if the price to value ratio is correct.
Regards
Paul
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
I'm guessing that's a yes to each of the questions in the poll.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Greg Broburg
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
I have assembled hundreds of such parts using only a
low cost Antex 15W soldering iron, some fine diameter
solder and some solder wick. A hot air gun makes
removal very easy and I have never damaged a PCB
using the hot air removal method.
Solder diameter should be .010 - .015 mils Large
diameter solder is a problem with this method.
To put a .5mm pitch part down without any fancy stuff
1: Carefully align the part with the pads, double check
that Pin 1 is in the correct alignment. Now solder a
couple of pads at two opposite corners to stabilize the
part. Expect to solder two to four pads at the corners
and that they will be shorted. Do not worry if you have
shorts between closely spaced pads. We will fix that later.
2: If the pad alignments are not perfect then reheat one
of the two opposite corner pad (s) and move the part
until it is correctly aligned.
3: When all pads are aligned then carefully solder all of
the leads to all of the pads. Do not worry if some pads
are shorted. do not worry if all pads are shorted.
4: Using .025 mil solder wick dipped in RMA solder flux
if not already fluxed, desolder all of the pads. In other
words, the solder wick is not effective at removing all of
the solder. What is left from surface tension will be the
correct amount.
5: Using a QTip with alcohol / acetone / dope thinner
clean all pads of flux. Do this twice or more each time
with a fresh QTip tip.
6: Inspect using magnification if necessary, to verify no
shorts or solder balls between pads. If so, use the solder
wick to remove the short.
I have done this hundreds of times.
Greg
With regards to soldering .5mm pitch parts:
I've never done that professionally or as a hobby.
I don't see myself doing this at home.
On 3/25/2011 11:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
For the sake of the poll, let's say it wasn't something crazy valuable. Pick
a piece of gear that's already on your bench (or that could easily be) and
assume we're talking about that. The cost to buy ratio may or may not be in
favor of the kit. A lot would depend on how much of a shopper you are.
Put another way, it's interesting enough to make you buy it, but not
interesting enough to go nuts over it.
On that basis, I'll put you down as a no to the question set.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:03 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
My first answer would be heck no. Enough trouble with 16 pin chips.
BUT now you have set the bait. A cesium standard.
That would grab my attention. So indeed if there were not a time limit, I
would invest in a very small tip iron and the correct solder. I have come to
the conclusion also that the tips Greg suggests can work. I simply have
equipment thats to large. (Funny I stayed clear of that hair size solder at
the Flea markets) This will be resolved I hope at the first MIT flea or
heaven forbid really ordering new.
Second those days of soldering might be non-coffee days. :-)
I have done some crazy stuff if the price to value ratio is correct.
Regards
Paul
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm guessing that's a yes to each of the questions in the poll.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Greg Broburg
> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:53 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
>
> I have assembled hundreds of such parts using only a
> low cost Antex 15W soldering iron, some fine diameter
> solder and some solder wick. A hot air gun makes
> removal very easy and I have never damaged a PCB
> using the hot air removal method.
>
> Solder diameter should be .010 - .015 mils Large
> diameter solder is a problem with this method.
>
> To put a .5mm pitch part down without any fancy stuff
>
> 1: Carefully align the part with the pads, double check
> that Pin 1 is in the correct alignment. Now solder a
> couple of pads at two opposite corners to stabilize the
> part. Expect to solder two to four pads at the corners
> and that they will be shorted. Do not worry if you have
> shorts between closely spaced pads. We will fix that later.
>
> 2: If the pad alignments are not perfect then reheat one
> of the two opposite corner pad (s) and move the part
> until it is correctly aligned.
>
> 3: When all pads are aligned then carefully solder all of
> the leads to all of the pads. Do not worry if some pads
> are shorted. do not worry if all pads are shorted.
>
> 4: Using .025 mil solder wick dipped in RMA solder flux
> if not already fluxed, desolder all of the pads. In other
> words, the solder wick is not effective at removing all of
> the solder. What is left from surface tension will be the
> correct amount.
>
> 5: Using a QTip with alcohol / acetone / dope thinner
> clean all pads of flux. Do this twice or more each time
> with a fresh QTip tip.
>
> 6: Inspect using magnification if necessary, to verify no
> shorts or solder balls between pads. If so, use the solder
> wick to remove the short.
>
> I have done this hundreds of times.
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> > With regards to soldering .5mm pitch parts:
> >
> > I've never done that professionally or as a hobby.
> >
> > I don't see myself doing this at home.
>
>
> On 3/25/2011 11:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> >
> >
> > Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
> > projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it
> out
> > as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
> >
> >
> >
> > How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> > spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing
at
> > the end of:
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume
> it's
> > just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard
> for
> > $100.
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
> > each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only
one
> > part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's
say
> > there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this
> to
> > solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will
cost
> > you $250 to $500.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
> > certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would
> you
> > buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
> > together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
> > different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes
> you
> > also need to get it working after you assemble it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
> > (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to
> do
> > it today (at home)?
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
> > could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of
> this.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
> >
> >
> >
> > Done it in the before - yes.
> >
> >
> >
> > Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
> >
> >
> >
> > Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
> >
> >
> >
> > Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a
> yes).
> >
> >
> >
> > Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
> > counts as a no).
> >
> >
> >
> > Any more votes?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
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and follow the instructions there.
SB
Scott Burris
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 6:09 PM
Done it before: yes
Done it in the last 2 years: yes
Setup to do it in the basement: yes, I use soldering iron and/or hot air and have a USB inspection microscope
Would I byt one? Yes Yes Yes I'm always on the lookout for more complex kits
Would do in a reasonable amount of time: Yes
I've done multiple projects of my own with FPGAs in TQFP208 packages.
I've actually come to prefer SMD over through hole in most cases. Current
complex project I'm working on is a spectrum analyzer:
http://www.scottyspectrumanalyzer.com/
Scott
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Done it before: yes
Done it in the last 2 years: yes
Setup to do it in the basement: yes, I use soldering iron and/or hot air and have a USB inspection microscope
Would I byt one? Yes Yes Yes I'm always on the lookout for more complex kits
Would do in a reasonable amount of time: Yes
I've done multiple projects of my own with FPGAs in TQFP208 packages.
I've actually come to prefer SMD over through hole in most cases. Current
complex project I'm working on is a spectrum analyzer:
http://www.scottyspectrumanalyzer.com/
Scott
>
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
>
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
> counts as a no).
>
>
>
> Any more votes?
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 6:10 PM
Hi
For the sake of the poll, anything over 50% confidence is good enough. I'll
put you down as yes to all the questions.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of michael taylor
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:06 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it?
The example was a LQFP 144-pins.
Done it before - no, but I have worked with SMT such as 18-pins SOIC
(1.27 mm) and 24 pin SSOP (0.65mm), so nearly but fewer pins
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - SMT - yes, 0.5mm pitch - no
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well, lack ideal
magnification
Would I buy one - most likely, cost/timing dependent
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - 50-80%
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
For the sake of the poll, anything over 50% confidence is good enough. I'll
put you down as yes to all the questions.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of michael taylor
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:06 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it?
The example was a LQFP 144-pins.
Done it before - no, but I have worked with SMT such as 18-pins SOIC
(1.27 mm) and 24 pin SSOP (0.65mm), so nearly but fewer pins
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - SMT - yes, 0.5mm pitch - no
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well, lack ideal
magnification
Would I buy one - most likely, cost/timing dependent
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - 50-80%
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
DV
David VanHorn
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 6:15 PM
Done it in the before - Yes
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - Yes
Set up to do it in the basement - Yes (bedroom, no basement)
Would I buy one - done that before. Yes
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - Yes
Done it in the before - Yes
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - Yes
Set up to do it in the basement - Yes (bedroom, no basement)
Would I buy one - done that before. Yes
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - Yes
BC
Bob Camp
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 6:26 PM
Hi
Any part of the home is fine.
All I'm trying to rule out is "take it to work and have them do it" and
"take it to work and build it with their gear". Those might be unreasonable
constraints. There may be places that are fine with you using their reflow
oven and solder screen gear to make home projects. If so - sorry for ruling
somebody with a kind employer out.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David VanHorn
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:16 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Done it in the before - Yes
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - Yes
Set up to do it in the basement - Yes (bedroom, no basement)
Would I buy one - done that before. Yes
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - Yes
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
Any part of the home is fine.
All I'm trying to rule out is "take it to work and have them do it" and
"take it to work and build it with their gear". Those might be unreasonable
constraints. There may be places that are fine with you using their reflow
oven and solder screen gear to make home projects. If so - sorry for ruling
somebody with a kind employer out.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David VanHorn
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:16 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Done it in the before - Yes
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - Yes
Set up to do it in the basement - Yes (bedroom, no basement)
Would I buy one - done that before. Yes
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - Yes
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
PS
paul swed
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 6:35 PM
Bob
I would do it at home, but now that you suggested work. I could bum my way
into a assembly area. Hmmmm. Think my odds just improved a lot. I did that
one time a while ago to burn some old style eproms and they had the right
programmer to do it.
Regards
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
Any part of the home is fine.
All I'm trying to rule out is "take it to work and have them do it" and
"take it to work and build it with their gear". Those might be unreasonable
constraints. There may be places that are fine with you using their reflow
oven and solder screen gear to make home projects. If so - sorry for ruling
somebody with a kind employer out.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David VanHorn
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:16 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Done it in the before - Yes
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - Yes
Set up to do it in the basement - Yes (bedroom, no basement)
Would I buy one - done that before. Yes
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - Yes
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Bob
I would do it at home, but now that you suggested work. I could bum my way
into a assembly area. Hmmmm. Think my odds just improved a lot. I did that
one time a while ago to burn some old style eproms and they had the right
programmer to do it.
Regards
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Any part of the home is fine.
>
> All I'm trying to rule out is "take it to work and have them do it" and
> "take it to work and build it with their gear". Those might be unreasonable
> constraints. There may be places that are fine with you using their reflow
> oven and solder screen gear to make home projects. If so - sorry for ruling
> somebody with a kind employer out.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of David VanHorn
> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:16 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
>
>
>
> Done it in the before - Yes
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - Yes
> Set up to do it in the basement - Yes (bedroom, no basement)
> Would I buy one - done that before. Yes
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - Yes
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
RA
Robert Atkinson
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 6:45 PM
Hi Bob,
Have done it at home and work
Am set up at home
Would do it (have done smaller)
Robert G8RPI.
--- On Fri, 25/3/11, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
From: Bob Camp lists@rtty.us
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Friday, 25 March, 2011, 17:07
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi Bob,
Have done it at home and work
Am set up at home
Would do it (have done smaller)
Robert G8RPI.
--- On Fri, 25/3/11, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
From: Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us>
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" <time-nuts@febo.com>
Date: Friday, 25 March, 2011, 17:07
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
GB
Greg Broburg
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 6:52 PM
I have assembled hundreds of such parts using only a
low cost Antex 15W soldering iron, some fine diameter
solder and some solder wick. A hot air gun makes
removal very easy and I have never damaged a PCB
using the hot air removal method.
Solder diameter should be .010 - .015 mils Large
diameter solder is a problem with this method.
To put a .5mm pitch part down without any fancy stuff
1: Carefully align the part with the pads, double check
that Pin 1 is in the correct alignment. Now solder a
couple of pads at two opposite corners to stabilize the
part. Expect to solder two to four pads at the corners
and that they will be shorted. Do not worry if you have
shorts between closely spaced pads. We will fix that later.
2: If the pad alignments are not perfect then reheat one
of the two opposite corner pad (s) and move the part
until it is correctly aligned.
3: When all pads are aligned then carefully solder all of
the leads to all of the pads. Do not worry if some pads
are shorted. do not worry if all pads are shorted.
4: Using .025 mil solder wick dipped in RMA solder flux
if not already fluxed, desolder all of the pads. In other
words, the solder wick is not effective at removing all of
the solder. What is left from surface tension will be the
correct amount.
5: Using a QTip with alcohol / acetone / dope thinner
clean all pads of flux. Do this twice or more each time
with a fresh QTip tip.
6: Inspect using magnification if necessary, to verify no
shorts or solder balls between pads. If so, use the solder
wick to remove the short.
I have done this hundreds of times.
Greg
With regards to soldering .5mm pitch parts:
I've never done that professionally or as a hobby.
I don't see myself doing this at home.
On 3/25/2011 11:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I have assembled hundreds of such parts using only a
low cost Antex 15W soldering iron, some fine diameter
solder and some solder wick. A hot air gun makes
removal very easy and I have never damaged a PCB
using the hot air removal method.
Solder diameter should be .010 - .015 mils Large
diameter solder is a problem with this method.
To put a .5mm pitch part down without any fancy stuff
1: Carefully align the part with the pads, double check
that Pin 1 is in the correct alignment. Now solder a
couple of pads at two opposite corners to stabilize the
part. Expect to solder two to four pads at the corners
and that they will be shorted. Do not worry if you have
shorts between closely spaced pads. We will fix that later.
2: If the pad alignments are not perfect then reheat one
of the two opposite corner pad (s) and move the part
until it is correctly aligned.
3: When all pads are aligned then carefully solder all of
the leads to all of the pads. Do not worry if some pads
are shorted. do not worry if all pads are shorted.
4: Using .025 mil solder wick dipped in RMA solder flux
if not already fluxed, desolder all of the pads. In other
words, the solder wick is not effective at removing all of
the solder. What is left from surface tension will be the
correct amount.
5: Using a QTip with alcohol / acetone / dope thinner
clean all pads of flux. Do this twice or more each time
with a fresh QTip tip.
6: Inspect using magnification if necessary, to verify no
shorts or solder balls between pads. If so, use the solder
wick to remove the short.
I have done this hundreds of times.
Greg
> With regards to soldering .5mm pitch parts:
>
> I've never done that professionally or as a hobby.
>
> I don't see myself doing this at home.
On 3/25/2011 11:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
>
>
> Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
> projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
> as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
>
>
>
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> spacing>=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
> the end of:
>
>
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
>
>
>
> I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
> just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
> $100.
>
>
>
> I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
> each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
> part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
> there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
> solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
> you $250 to $500.
>
>
>
> I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
> certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
> buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
> together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
> different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
> also need to get it working after you assemble it.
>
>
>
> Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
> (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
> it today (at home)?
>
>
>
> I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
> could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
>
>
>
>
> I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
>
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
>
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
> counts as a no).
>
>
>
> Any more votes?
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
JL
Jim Lux
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 7:58 PM
Hi
Any part of the home is fine.
All I'm trying to rule out is "take it to work and have them do it" and
"take it to work and build it with their gear". Those might be unreasonable
constraints. There may be places that are fine with you using their reflow
oven and solder screen gear to make home projects. If so - sorry for ruling
somebody with a kind employer out.
Bob
Indeed.. I got spoiled when I worked at a place with a mill & lathe just outside my office door, along with people who were willing to show you how to do some stuff, and leave you to wreak your damage on you own project.
Otoh, they didn't have VNAs and hydrogen maser references to work with, either.
I want a renaissance era patron!!!! Prince Ludivico, where are you? And I want a shop full of assistants to work off my whiteboard sketches.
On Mar 25, 2011, at 11:26 AM, "Bob Camp" <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Any part of the home is fine.
>
> All I'm trying to rule out is "take it to work and have them do it" and
> "take it to work and build it with their gear". Those might be unreasonable
> constraints. There may be places that are fine with you using their reflow
> oven and solder screen gear to make home projects. If so - sorry for ruling
> somebody with a kind employer out.
>
> Bob
>
Indeed.. I got spoiled when I worked at a place with a mill & lathe just outside my office door, along with people who were willing to show you how to do some stuff, and leave you to wreak your damage on you own project.
Otoh, they didn't have VNAs and hydrogen maser references to work with, either.
I want a renaissance era patron!!!! Prince Ludivico, where are you? And I want a shop full of assistants to work off my whiteboard sketches.
BE
brent evers
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 8:46 PM
Hi -
New to the list as of last night - much more activity than I expected.
As an introduction, my name I Brent, and I work mostly in the subsea
world, although prior to that, in the RF/microwave test equipment
world.
I expected to lurk for a good 6 months before chiming in, but what the heck.
Done it before: yes
Done it in the last 2 years: yes
Setup to do it in the basement: yes, in a hack sort of way
Would I bye one? No
Would do in a reasonable amount of time: No.
Not to confuse the issue, but the "No's" at the end are because of my
doubts in what can be accomplished given the limitations of my own
skills (which are not bad) and the limitations on the design imposed
by that. Hand soldering chips is doable, but you are limiting the
design to not having any BGA's, which I think is unrealistic in
today's world and still expect a decent level of performance. Many of
the chips I work with today aren't offered in anything but BGA's. To
me, there'd be a lot more value in putting people's algorithm and
coding skills to use (of which, mine aren't so good). Design a robust
platform based on an FPGA, get a group buy together and get the thing
built in a real board house. Spend the effort in developing a high
quality/high feature system that is built on sound and reproducable
hardware. The GNU radio project and others come to mind.
Then I might be interested..
Hope I didn't detract from/dustract the conversation. Many thanks in
advance for the good information I have already gathered and will
certainly gather in the future.
Best Regards,
Brent
KD4VMM
Hi -
New to the list as of last night - much more activity than I expected.
As an introduction, my name I Brent, and I work mostly in the subsea
world, although prior to that, in the RF/microwave test equipment
world.
I expected to lurk for a good 6 months before chiming in, but what the heck.
Done it before: yes
Done it in the last 2 years: yes
Setup to do it in the basement: yes, in a hack sort of way
Would I bye one? No
Would do in a reasonable amount of time: No.
Not to confuse the issue, but the "No's" at the end are because of my
doubts in what can be accomplished given the limitations of my own
skills (which are not bad) and the limitations on the design imposed
by that. Hand soldering chips is doable, but you are limiting the
design to not having any BGA's, which I think is unrealistic in
today's world and still expect a decent level of performance. Many of
the chips I work with today aren't offered in anything but BGA's. To
me, there'd be a lot more value in putting people's algorithm and
coding skills to use (of which, mine aren't so good). Design a robust
platform based on an FPGA, get a group buy together and get the thing
built in a real board house. Spend the effort in developing a high
quality/high feature system that is built on sound and reproducable
hardware. The GNU radio project and others come to mind.
Then I might be interested..
Hope I didn't detract from/dustract the conversation. Many thanks in
advance for the good information I have already gathered and will
certainly gather in the future.
Best Regards,
Brent
KD4VMM
W
Wolfgang
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 9:20 PM
On Friday 25 March 2011, Bob Camp wrote:
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
If I need it yes - otherwise no.
On Friday 25 March 2011, Bob Camp wrote:
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
Yes.
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
>
Yes.
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
>
Yes.
> Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
>
Depends.
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
> counts as a no).
>
If I need it yes - otherwise no.
- Wolfgang, DL1SKY
G/
Graham / KE9H
Fri, Mar 25, 2011 9:41 PM
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the home lab / last 2 years - yes.
Set up to do it in the home lab - yes.
Would I buy one - yes.
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - Yes
A weekend or two.
--- Graham / KE9H
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the home lab / last 2 years - yes.
Set up to do it in the home lab - yes.
Would I buy one - yes.
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - Yes
A weekend or two.
--- Graham / KE9H
DJ
David J Taylor
Sat, Mar 26, 2011 8:18 AM
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing
at
the end of:
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing
> at
> the end of:
For that complexity, I would only consider buying a pre-assembled and
tested board.
Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
S
shalimr9@gmail.com
Sat, Mar 26, 2011 12:40 PM
0.5 mm TSSOP, MSOP and QFPs are not fun but OK. 0.65 is considerably easier, not only to assemble, but also if you have to put a scope probe tip on one of the pins. I can work with 0.65 without magnifier, 0.5 I can't.
QFNs are a no-no for me in the current state of affairs, even though I see the day coming soon where I will have to get equipped just because there are interesting parts only available in QFN packages.
0805 parts are also OK, smaller probably not if I have a choice. I understand that with microwave circuits, you sometimes have to use smaller packages to match line width. That sucks.
I just finished building a couple of prototypes with 0805 passives, SOIC and MSOP and 0.65 QFPs (about 120 parts total each board) and while it does not look very good, both worked the first time. I had to do it myself because my assembler was not available and I needed to check these protos. The assembler will build the next 10. It took me about 4 hours to build 2 boards. I used a fine tip, temperature controlled soldering iron and a magnifier mounted on a old pair of recycled sunglasses :)
I am now seriously looking at a hot air rework station and an oven because that's just the only way forward.
If someone can recommend a solder paste dispenser that works better than a seringe, I would be interested.
Didier KO4BB
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bob Camp" lists@rtty.us
Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 13:07:32
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'time-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
0.5 mm TSSOP, MSOP and QFPs are not fun but OK. 0.65 is considerably easier, not only to assemble, but also if you have to put a scope probe tip on one of the pins. I can work with 0.65 without magnifier, 0.5 I can't.
QFNs are a no-no for me in the current state of affairs, even though I see the day coming soon where I will have to get equipped just because there are interesting parts only available in QFN packages.
0805 parts are also OK, smaller probably not if I have a choice. I understand that with microwave circuits, you sometimes have to use smaller packages to match line width. That sucks.
I just finished building a couple of prototypes with 0805 passives, SOIC and MSOP and 0.65 QFPs (about 120 parts total each board) and while it does not look very good, both worked the first time. I had to do it myself because my assembler was not available and I needed to check these protos. The assembler will build the next 10. It took me about 4 hours to build 2 boards. I used a fine tip, temperature controlled soldering iron and a magnifier mounted on a old pair of recycled sunglasses :)
I am now seriously looking at a hot air rework station and an oven because that's just the only way forward.
If someone can recommend a solder paste dispenser that works better than a seringe, I would be interested.
Didier KO4BB
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bob Camp" <lists@rtty.us>
Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 13:07:32
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'<time-nuts@febo.com>
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
BC
Bob Camp
Sat, Mar 26, 2011 12:50 PM
Hi
There are machines out there that are essentially robotic syringes. Several outfits make them. They can also be used to put down adhesive. I don't know of anybody who actually likes them.
Best bet - get / make a simple screen printer. A manual one is going to be cheap. A home made one is even cheaper. The solder screen it's self won't cost you much more than the time you would spend programming the robot and messing with it. Solder screen / stencil generation is a "push button" sort of thing with a modern pcb layout program.
Bob
On Mar 26, 2011, at 8:40 AM, shalimr9@gmail.com wrote:
0.5 mm TSSOP, MSOP and QFPs are not fun but OK. 0.65 is considerably easier, not only to assemble, but also if you have to put a scope probe tip on one of the pins. I can work with 0.65 without magnifier, 0.5 I can't.
QFNs are a no-no for me in the current state of affairs, even though I see the day coming soon where I will have to get equipped just because there are interesting parts only available in QFN packages.
0805 parts are also OK, smaller probably not if I have a choice. I understand that with microwave circuits, you sometimes have to use smaller packages to match line width. That sucks.
I just finished building a couple of prototypes with 0805 passives, SOIC and MSOP and 0.65 QFPs (about 120 parts total each board) and while it does not look very good, both worked the first time. I had to do it myself because my assembler was not available and I needed to check these protos. The assembler will build the next 10. It took me about 4 hours to build 2 boards. I used a fine tip, temperature controlled soldering iron and a magnifier mounted on a old pair of recycled sunglasses :)
I am now seriously looking at a hot air rework station and an oven because that's just the only way forward.
If someone can recommend a solder paste dispenser that works better than a seringe, I would be interested.
Didier KO4BB
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bob Camp" lists@rtty.us
Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 13:07:32
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'time-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Hi
Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
the end of:
http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
$100.
I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
you $250 to $500.
I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
also need to get it working after you assemble it.
Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
(anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
it today (at home)?
I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
Done it in the before - yes.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
counts as a no).
Any more votes?
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
There are machines out there that are essentially robotic syringes. Several outfits make them. They can also be used to put down adhesive. I don't know of anybody who actually likes them.
Best bet - get / make a simple screen printer. A manual one is going to be cheap. A home made one is even cheaper. The solder screen it's self won't cost you much more than the time you would spend programming the robot and messing with it. Solder screen / stencil generation is a "push button" sort of thing with a modern pcb layout program.
Bob
On Mar 26, 2011, at 8:40 AM, shalimr9@gmail.com wrote:
> 0.5 mm TSSOP, MSOP and QFPs are not fun but OK. 0.65 is considerably easier, not only to assemble, but also if you have to put a scope probe tip on one of the pins. I can work with 0.65 without magnifier, 0.5 I can't.
> QFNs are a no-no for me in the current state of affairs, even though I see the day coming soon where I will have to get equipped just because there are interesting parts only available in QFN packages.
>
> 0805 parts are also OK, smaller probably not if I have a choice. I understand that with microwave circuits, you sometimes have to use smaller packages to match line width. That sucks.
>
> I just finished building a couple of prototypes with 0805 passives, SOIC and MSOP and 0.65 QFPs (about 120 parts total each board) and while it does not look very good, both worked the first time. I had to do it myself because my assembler was not available and I needed to check these protos. The assembler will build the next 10. It took me about 4 hours to build 2 boards. I used a fine tip, temperature controlled soldering iron and a magnifier mounted on a old pair of recycled sunglasses :)
>
> I am now seriously looking at a hot air rework station and an oven because that's just the only way forward.
>
> If someone can recommend a solder paste dispenser that works better than a seringe, I would be interested.
>
> Didier KO4BB
>
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Bob Camp" <lists@rtty.us>
> Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 13:07:32
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'<time-nuts@febo.com>
> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about
> projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out
> as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self.
>
>
>
> How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm
> spacing >=144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at
> the end of:
>
>
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf
>
>
>
> I'm sure it's a "what's in it for me?" sort of question. Let's assume it's
> just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for
> $100.
>
>
>
> I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say
> each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one
> part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say
> there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to
> solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost
> you $250 to $500.
>
>
>
> I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It
> certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you
> buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it
> together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean
> different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you
> also need to get it working after you assemble it.
>
>
>
> Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before
> (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do
> it today (at home)?
>
>
>
> I'm not trying to get into "how would you do it / what would you need /
> could you farm it out". Those are also neat questions, but not part of this.
>
>
>
>
> I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order):
>
>
>
> Done it in the before - yes.
>
>
>
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
>
>
>
> Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well.
>
>
>
> Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes).
>
>
>
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That
> counts as a no).
>
>
>
> Any more votes?
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
SW
Steve Wiseman
Sat, Mar 26, 2011 2:10 PM
Best bet - get / make a simple screen printer. A manual one is going to be
cheap. A home made one is even cheaper. The solder screen it's self won't
cost you much more than the time you would spend programming the robot and
messing with it. Solder screen / stencil generation is a "push button" sort
of thing with a modern pcb layout program.
plastic stencils are cheap, I get mine from
http://www.smtstencil.co.uk/
No need for any machinery, just tape it to the board, then squeegee
the paste using a credit card. Works fine, for low volume, and is
easily capable of 0.5mm pitch.
More of a concern, if issuing kits of parts, is how to deliver
fine-pitch QFPs with their legs intact. The best way to package them
for shipping may well be to attach them to a PCB with some kind of
melted metal...
(This is probably my first post here. Hobbyist / engineer running an
old but adequate True-time GPS and Rubidium , to keep the test gear
(sufficiently) truthful.)
Steve
On 26/03/2011, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Best bet - get / make a simple screen printer. A manual one is going to be
> cheap. A home made one is even cheaper. The solder screen it's self won't
> cost you much more than the time you would spend programming the robot and
> messing with it. Solder screen / stencil generation is a "push button" sort
> of thing with a modern pcb layout program.
plastic stencils are cheap, I get mine from
http://www.smtstencil.co.uk/
No need for any machinery, just tape it to the board, then squeegee
the paste using a credit card. Works fine, for low volume, and is
easily capable of 0.5mm pitch.
More of a concern, if issuing kits of parts, is how to deliver
fine-pitch QFPs with their legs intact. The best way to package them
for shipping may well be to attach them to a PCB with some kind of
melted metal...
(This is probably my first post here. Hobbyist / engineer running an
old but adequate True-time GPS and Rubidium , to keep the test gear
(sufficiently) truthful.)
Steve
BP
Bob Paddock
Sat, Mar 26, 2011 2:31 PM
I don't see a way to reasonably ship a solder mask with each board. I agree
it would be neat, but it would cost ...
Solder Stencil actually. The mask is part of the board.
Low use stencils are $25: http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/446
for each one.
I'll address some other comments I see in this thread, in this one reply.
On the PCB list the consensus is 0402's are the smallest things that
can be done by hand.
0603 are no problem at all to do by hand.
BGA's are actually easier to do than QFN parts, as long as you accept
the board is now not repairable and is a throwaway item.
Avoid QFN's if at all possible, especially in battery powered
circuits. The flux gets trapped raising leakage currents.
It doesn't take "a steady hand" it takes a while timed hand, drop as
pass over not hold and aim. Think Target Shooting rather than holding
absolutely still.
I expect any Time Nut probably has what it takes to cobble together a
video magnifier in their house already, except for maybe the macro
lenses, for example:
http://www.designer-iii.com/Solder/ made from Wife's video camera, RF
Modulator and old color TV. Check out the Toy Store for Cyclops
Camera or search for AE10324-ND at http://www.digikey.com .
Not the best but works. Works well mounted on old desk lamp base,
that has a flexible neck to aim and hold, picked up at the Salvation
Army Thrift Store.
Also consider there maybe disruptions in the supply chain due to the
Japan Earthquake at the fundamental material level, as well has the
chip level. Many fabs are still closed due to damage or lack of
reliable power.
"The glue that holds the electronic industry together falls apart,
Bismaleimide Triazine (BT) resin shortage."
http://blog.softwaresafety.net/2011/03/glue-that-holds-electronic-industry.html
--
http://blog.softwaresafety.net/
http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> I don't see a way to reasonably ship a solder mask with each board. I agree
> it would be neat, but it would cost ...
Solder Stencil actually. The mask is part of the board.
Low use stencils are $25: http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/446
for each one.
I'll address some other comments I see in this thread, in this one reply.
On the PCB list the consensus is 0402's are the smallest things that
can be done by hand.
0603 are no problem at all to do by hand.
BGA's are actually easier to do than QFN parts, as long as you accept
the board is now not repairable and is a throwaway item.
Avoid QFN's if at all possible, especially in battery powered
circuits. The flux gets trapped raising leakage currents.
It doesn't take "a steady hand" it takes a while timed hand, drop as
pass over not hold and aim. Think Target Shooting rather than holding
absolutely still.
I expect any Time Nut probably has what it takes to cobble together a
video magnifier in their house already, except for maybe the macro
lenses, for example:
http://www.designer-iii.com/Solder/ made from Wife's video camera, RF
Modulator and old color TV. Check out the Toy Store for Cyclops
Camera or search for AE10324-ND at http://www.digikey.com .
Not the best but works. Works well mounted on old desk lamp base,
that has a flexible neck to aim and hold, picked up at the Salvation
Army Thrift Store.
Also consider there maybe disruptions in the supply chain due to the
Japan Earthquake at the fundamental material level, as well has the
chip level. Many fabs are still closed due to damage or lack of
reliable power.
"The glue that holds the electronic industry together falls apart,
Bismaleimide Triazine (BT) resin shortage."
http://blog.softwaresafety.net/2011/03/glue-that-holds-electronic-industry.html
--
http://blog.softwaresafety.net/
http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
CH
Chuck Harris
Sat, Mar 26, 2011 4:13 PM
BGA's are actually easier to do than QFN parts, as long as you accept
the board is now not repairable and is a throwaway item.
...
BGA's are about as easy to rework as anything else. You use a hot air
rework station, and an underboard preheater. The hot air rework station
has a manifold that constrains the hot air to heat the entire top surface
of the BGA, and when the solder melts, the chip will pop right off.
The big problem is you cannot readily re-ball a BGA part if it turns out to
be good, and you want to reuse it. Re-balling machines are rather expensive
things. You must do a good job of wiping away the old solder from the pcb
while it is still hot, and clean up the left over solder debris, and flux.
If you look on youtube, there are quite a few videos showing guys replacing
video "cards" on laptop computers. They are all BGA, and the videos give a
good idea of what is involved.
-Chuck Harris
Bob Paddock wrote:
...
> BGA's are actually easier to do than QFN parts, as long as you accept
> the board is now not repairable and is a throwaway item.
...
BGA's are about as easy to rework as anything else. You use a hot air
rework station, and an underboard preheater. The hot air rework station
has a manifold that constrains the hot air to heat the entire top surface
of the BGA, and when the solder melts, the chip will pop right off.
The big problem is you cannot readily re-ball a BGA part if it turns out to
be good, and you want to reuse it. Re-balling machines are rather expensive
things. You must do a good job of wiping away the old solder from the pcb
while it is still hot, and clean up the left over solder debris, and flux.
If you look on youtube, there are quite a few videos showing guys replacing
video "cards" on laptop computers. They are all BGA, and the videos give a
good idea of what is involved.
-Chuck Harris
TD
Tijd Dingen
Sat, Mar 26, 2011 9:16 PM
Didn't know that outfit, thanks for the link. :) Would you say they are durable
enough to say 5 boards with it? (I would hope so, but you never know...)
With regard to the delivery of the fine pitch stuff ... as long as the one
putting together the kit is ordering those as cut-tape then that should be no
problem.
Just cut the tape into smaller strips and include those with the kit.
regards,
Fred
----- Original Message ----
From: Steve Wiseman sjwiseman@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 3:10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection - Short Run Assembly
On 26/03/2011, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Best bet - get / make a simple screen printer. A manual one is going to be
cheap. A home made one is even cheaper. The solder screen it's self won't
cost you much more than the time you would spend programming the robot and
messing with it. Solder screen / stencil generation is a "push button" sort
of thing with a modern pcb layout program.
plastic stencils are cheap, I get mine from
http://www.smtstencil.co.uk/
No need for any machinery, just tape it to the board, then squeegee
the paste using a credit card. Works fine, for low volume, and is
easily capable of 0.5mm pitch.
More of a concern, if issuing kits of parts, is how to deliver
fine-pitch QFPs with their legs intact. The best way to package them
for shipping may well be to attach them to a PCB with some kind of
melted metal...
(This is probably my first post here. Hobbyist / engineer running an
old but adequate True-time GPS and Rubidium , to keep the test gear
(sufficiently) truthful.)
Steve
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Didn't know that outfit, thanks for the link. :) Would you say they are durable
enough to say 5 boards with it? (I would hope so, but you never know...)
With regard to the delivery of the fine pitch stuff ... as long as the one
putting together the kit is ordering those as cut-tape then that should be no
problem.
Just cut the tape into smaller strips and include those with the kit.
regards,
Fred
----- Original Message ----
From: Steve Wiseman <sjwiseman@gmail.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 3:10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection - Short Run Assembly
On 26/03/2011, Bob Camp <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Best bet - get / make a simple screen printer. A manual one is going to be
> cheap. A home made one is even cheaper. The solder screen it's self won't
> cost you much more than the time you would spend programming the robot and
> messing with it. Solder screen / stencil generation is a "push button" sort
> of thing with a modern pcb layout program.
plastic stencils are cheap, I get mine from
http://www.smtstencil.co.uk/
No need for any machinery, just tape it to the board, then squeegee
the paste using a credit card. Works fine, for low volume, and is
easily capable of 0.5mm pitch.
More of a concern, if issuing kits of parts, is how to deliver
fine-pitch QFPs with their legs intact. The best way to package them
for shipping may well be to attach them to a PCB with some kind of
melted metal...
(This is probably my first post here. Hobbyist / engineer running an
old but adequate True-time GPS and Rubidium , to keep the test gear
(sufficiently) truthful.)
Steve
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
AK
Attila Kinali
Thu, Mar 31, 2011 7:10 AM
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 13:07:32 -0400
"Bob Camp" lists@rtty.us wrote:
Yes. I regularly solder 0.5mm and 0.63mm pitch stuff by hand at work.
Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
No. I take all the stuff i want to solder to work and do it there.
Although i have equipment at home that would allow me to get everything
soldered with a reasonable confidence, the equipment at work allows me
to get it working for sure. And being able to check the solder points
under a microscope is a nice thing, before you fry something because
of a short that you havent seen. :-)
We have a reflow oven at work as well, but we hardly ever use it,
as we get better results by hand than with the oven.
Set up to do it in the basement
Yes, but not well, see above.
Ok, i have to relativate here, i'm not well equipped in reference
to a professional lab. For a hobbist, i have quite good stuff.
Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time
500 pins? That's probably a day or two for me. Depending on the layout
and the exact mix of components.
Attila Kinali
--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 13:07:32 -0400
"Bob Camp" <lists@rtty.us> wrote:
> Done it in the before
Yes. I regularly solder 0.5mm and 0.63mm pitch stuff by hand at work.
> Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no.
No. I take all the stuff i want to solder to work and do it there.
Although i have equipment at home that would allow me to get everything
soldered with a reasonable confidence, the equipment at work allows me
to get it working for sure. And being able to check the solder points
under a microscope is a nice thing, before you fry something because
of a short that you havent seen. :-)
We have a reflow oven at work as well, but we hardly ever use it,
as we get better results by hand than with the oven.
> Set up to do it in the basement
Yes, but not well, see above.
Ok, i have to relativate here, i'm not well equipped in reference
to a professional lab. For a hobbist, i have quite good stuff.
> Would I buy one
Yes
> Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time
500 pins? That's probably a day or two for me. Depending on the layout
and the exact mix of components.
Attila Kinali
--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
