RE: TWL: Re: Cruising communications
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com
[mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com]On Behalf Of Joe Engel
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 12:08 PM
To: trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Subject: RE: TWL: Re: Cruising communications
Regarding this whole laptop issue, about which I am profoundly
passionate!
Some Bona Fides first. We've been in the computer biz for 14 years.
know that we know of what we speak.
I been in the biz about twice as long as Joe - That however only proves my
views are probably obsolete.
There has been some good advice on this thread. Most I agree with, a few
points I do not. But my number 1 point of advice is------- DO NOT BUY A
CONSUMER LEVEL LAPTOP COMPUTER for navigation.
Nahh - There is only one significant differentiator - the display. All the
other stuff is commodity in both performance and quality. The industry also
punishes anyone who does anything remotely different - software bugs sure to
appear. So processors, memories, disks, etc. are pretty much the same for
$1000 or $3000.
So you buy as much display as you need or can afford - and note that if your
nav area is in a dark interior cranny any active display will probably be
OK. If you really want a high brightness display in an exposed area you
might like to think about a CRT permanently installed. Can't beat them
electrons and phosphors.
Someone said IBM (we do not sell IBM). In my opinion the IBM top
of the line ThinkPad laptop is the best laptop out there. Its
video screen
is startling better than most all of the other competitors. But it is
expensive as in you get what you pay for folks. A friend of mine just
bought a high end IBM and he shopped every website and mail-order
source for
weeks. He is a VERY frugal person. He spent $3,800.00 with the few bells
and whistles he added. But it is a beauty!
IBM maes a real nice box at a real high premium.
Panasonic, Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, etc. are good brand names and IN THE
BUSINESS CLASS offerings they have nice computers. You should be
looking at
PII or PIII processors speeds. You want to get well ahead of the
obsolescence curve. I don't recommend Compaq (and we do sell and fix
those), especially the Presario which is a consumer system. They're just
too quirky for my liking but their top line business stuff sure is pretty.
For laptop use a celeron is quite adequate. Ain't nothing terribly
challenging about the nav programs. You will obsolete at the same speed as
you will on a PII or PIII. Now servers or hot graphics boxes - different
story.
The big difference in price usually is because of the quality
components and
especially because of the higher quality display, and there is a big, big
difference between cheap and expensive displays, even though they have the
same specifications. As you know, for navigation, screen displays are a
very crucial item.
Agree on the display - all the other stuff is about the same. I do not
believe big expensive displays have the same specs as the cheap ones - same
resolution perhaps but significant differences elsewhere.
The one point I disagree with from previous posts on this thread is the
cost. Someone said $1,500.00, I disagree. You should be looking at about
$2,500.00 for a decent (but still not the best) laptop. About
the only real
hope of getting the bright, clear, luminant, high contrast
display required
for navigation is by comparing them, unless you go directly to the top of
the line in which case you get the best.
Pay more money you get a better display. Given a reasonably unexposed
environment I doubt the difference between $1500 and 2500 is very large.
Remember the eye is not very sensitive to brightness - few people can
differentiate a factor of two if not shown side by side.
Ruggedness is important on most boats.
Anybody who drops an unencased laptop should consider themselves lucky if
it continues working. Most will by the way but it is still a dumb thing to
do. You deal with them in cases and and then bolt them down when out of the
case. One needs to be particularly careful if the laptop is in use - a good
wrap with the disk head unparked is almost certain to cause terminal damage.
The other "gotcha" out there right now is the operating system.
I think W2000 for the geeks and W98 for everybody else. Might be different
in a year but I doubt it.
Warranty is often overlooked. Look for 1 to 3 year, 48 hour, fast
turnaround world-wide warranty too. That usually separates the consumers
form the real laptops.
If you are going cruising I would recommend saving the warranty cost and buy
a spare machine. The ability to get a machine in and out of even civilized
places is very limited. I would guess it is less than 50% to and from
Puerto Vallarta for instance.(You might well be able to get a plain vanilla
machine fixed there - but a high end laptop will have to go back to the
states.) The only workable way from there is to carry it or have it carried
to and from San Diego. And note that it is actually worse than I portray
it - It is almost impossible to get a high end lap top through the formal
system which routes all such gear through Mexico City.
Jim
Just curious, does anyone have a non-portable machine on their boat? I would
almost consider a non-portable machine but I like the fact that portables
can run on battery and that they are engineered for more shock/vibration.
And then there is the space issue. However, the non-portable machines are
easier to get parts for and fix. I am considering a fixed computer for my
next boat and I would be interested to hear of others who have "standard"
computers on their boats.
-mike
Hi all:
I have to jump in here with a few opinions. I haven't given any opinions
for a week or so, and my opinion box is overflowing.
I have a laptop, but it is not going to be the primary computer on the
boat. The reason is that they are too prone to failure. Too many little
bitty connectors inside for one thing. Too much heat for another with no
way to dissipate it. And the case flexes when you pick it up; maybe not
with the new metal cased jobs that someone mentioned, but the plastic
cased ones sure do. This causes intermittent problems to develop if you
haul it around much. This is based on my experience, and I know others
have had good results with them.
My Nav computer is going to be a fixed computer, based on an industrial
chassis and a (probably) Intel motherboard. It will have everything I
need on the motherboard and no plug in cards. These are the most prone
to failure in a fixed installation. I will have a 15" lcd screen, yet to
be chosen, of the $1000 variety, not the super bright. I will have a
fairly tiny hard disk, a few gb, that will contain Cap'n, the operating
system, and perhaps a few utilities. All the rest of the software for
running an on board office will be on the second computer below. Yes,
folks, we may have to wor*k a little bit while cruising. Sad but true.
The above mentioned computer can be put together in a 1-3/4" drawer, 19"
wide (standard U1 rack) which can go below the chart table. The rack
chassis comes with a 120vac power supply. You mount the motherboard and
hard disk, and the floppy if you want one, and you're in business.
Estimated cost:
Chassis $350
Motherboard $150
Celeron 400 mhz Proc $160
128Mb Ram $150
Hard Disk $150
Floppy $25
Keyboard $25
Mouse or trackball $50
Approximate total, $1060, not counting monitor which can run from $800
to $4000, depending.
The reason for choosing the Celeron processor is that it comes in the
Intel Socket 370 which is planar to the motherboard. The Pentium III
usually is in the Slot 1 configuration which means it plugs in at right
angles. The socket 370 is much more rugged. You can also get the Pentium
III in Socket 370, but you don't need it for the nav computer, and it
costs a lot more.
The reason for going this route is that for about $300 more, I can carry
a spare motherboard and a spare hard disk. Both are small and easily
stored. If either one fails, I can repair the thing in less than an
hour. I cannot repair a laptop. I like things I can fix.
Just some more food for thought, and perhaps a different way of looking
at the problem.
Russ
--
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Russ and Donna Sherwin |
| "Four Seasons" |
| 1981 Marine Trader DC44 |
| Sunnyvale, Ca 94087 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
Mike and all:
I will have two fixed computers in the boat; one in the pilot house and
one in the "office". Also a laptop, but only for convenience and for
taking ashore. You can buy lots of industrial chassis in various
configurations that are appealing for boats. Most standard motherboards
will fit them. It's not necessary to stick with the computer store
standard ATX mini-tower. There are rack mounts, custom chassis, NLX (see
below) and all-in-one which combine the screen and all into a flush
mounted package. Think $$$. Most come with 120vac power supplies
(standard) and with some you can pay a little more and get a 12 or 24vdc
power supply. These are "roll your own" computers, obviously, unless you
want to pay really big bucks for a fully assembled one, but it's not
brain surgery to build up a computer. The one you build up can be just
as good and just as reliable as one you buy from any of the big
manufacturers. Our success rate with two different "name" manufacturers
in our company is about 70% work right out of the box; 30% have
problems. The key factor is choosing a motherboard that has all the
features you want and none you don't want, by a reputable manufacturer.
They are cheap enough you can buy two while you're at it. Probably no
need to have a spare CPU; I've never had one fail yet.
There is a mini case format called NLX which is quite appealing. The NLX
cases hold one HD, one motherboard, a floppy or zip drive, a power
supply and up to two plug in PCI cards. There are some becoming
commercially available as finished computers. I have just bought a Sony
Vaio PCV-L630 for the main office computer on the boat. Its case is
3-1/2 x 11-1/2 x 13-1/2 inches. It comes with a 15" LCD monitor and 17gb
drive, 128mb memory for $2700. This is on the pricy side for a fixed
computer, but almost $1200 of that is the monitor. Compaq also has one
the same size with smaller HD and 64Mb memory for $1900. These NLX cases
are going to be getting very popular in my opinion. And they use the
socket 370 Pentium or Celeron chip which is very good in a shock and
vibration environment. The Sony is built like a tank. (I do not sell or
promote computers. This is not a recommendation that you buy any
particular brand)
Much has been said about getting a "good" laptop with a "good" warranty,
whatever those are. For my money, I'd much rather have a spare
motherboard and a spare HD than a warranty, any day. A warranty is not
going to do me much good in most foreign ports. A motherboard and a
screwdriver will.
As always, these are only opinions and worth what you paid for them.
Russ
Mike Harrington wrote:
Just curious, does anyone have a non-portable machine on their boat?
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Russ and Donna Sherwin |
| "Four Seasons" |
| 1981 Marine Trader DC44 |
| Sunnyvale, Ca 94087 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
Russ, what is the source for the computer chassis??
Thanks
Ted
Just curious, does anyone have a non-portable machine on their boat?
We have a full tower desktop with 9 drives on it. This one has been onboard
for 2 years and the previous one was on the boat for 7 years. This system
is networked with an older laptop thru Intel Anypoint network, which
networks thru the existing vessel phonelines.
This way the laptop can access the hard drives, etc. of the larger machine
and can be used anywhere on the boat but still print. It will not access
the scanner on the main machine. Both machines can be online at the same
time with 1 internet connection.
Louise
Aboard Caper in Gloucester
www.sspboatsite.com