RE: TWL: Re: Cruising communications
Have enjoyed this educational thread on laptop selection very much.
In my shopping for a laptop I called several computer repair shops to
ask what brands they like / dislike to work on and which were easy to get
parts for.
The opinions varried as one would expect -- several comments were
consistant however accross the spectrum of my inquiries which were :
Compac -- Easy to get parts for - easy to work on
( same for it's cousins sold under other brands
such as Pro Star and Sager )
IBM Thinkpads - Arguably best screen - not as
robust as the Compacs but also easy to get parts
for and to fix
I would appreciate any comments from the professionals or techies on
these opinions ...
Ken
MV Mrs. Hudson
-----Original Message-----
From: Hal Wyman [mailto:hal@halwyman.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 10:14 AM
To: trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Subject: Re: TWL: Re: Cruising communications
I have used Thinkpads for the last five years or so, and am on my fourth
one. Obviously, they work great for me. You can't go wrong with Compaq,
Dell, or Gateway IMO. <SNIP>
Regarding this whole laptop issue, about which I am profoundly passionate!
Some Bona Fides first. We've been in the computer biz for 14 years. We
sell em, we fix em (Authorized Warranty for some brands) and we're Microsoft
Certified Solution Providers. I bring this all up here because I want you
all to know that I'm not just winging it here. I am not interested in
selling anything to you folks. I will not expound a single brand, etc. I
agree with and must conform with the TWL rules. So this is just to let you
know that we know of what we speak.
There has been some good advice on this thread. Most I agree with, a few
points I do not. But my number 1 point of advice is------- DO NOT BUY A
CONSUMER LEVEL LAPTOP COMPUTER for navigation. Actually, don't buy one for
anything except maybe the kids in school. They are terrible. We see inside
these things here. Hey are slow, and dull and their screens are awful.
They are truly throw-away computers and my thinking is they should be thrown
away immediately <G>.
So how do you know the difference? Unless you can compare side by side,
mostly price. If your laptop is under about $1,500.00 it's a consumer
laptop. If it's under $1,000.00, it's a throwaway. My advice is buy a real
laptop. Someone said IBM (we do not sell IBM). In my opinion the IBM top
of the line ThinkPad laptop is the best laptop out there. Its video screen
is startling better than most all of the other competitors. But it is
expensive as in you get what you pay for folks. A friend of mine just
bought a high end IBM and he shopped every website and mail-order source for
weeks. He is a VERY frugal person. He spent $3,800.00 with the few bells
and whistles he added. But it is a beauty!
Panasonic, Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, etc. are good brand names and IN THE
BUSINESS CLASS offerings they have nice computers. You should be looking at
PII or PIII processors speeds. You want to get well ahead of the
obsolescence curve. I don't recommend Compaq (and we do sell and fix
those), especially the Presario which is a consumer system. They're just
too quirky for my liking but their top line business stuff sure is pretty.
The big difference in price usually is because of the quality components and
especially because of the higher quality display, and there is a big, big
difference between cheap and expensive displays, even though they have the
same specifications. As you know, for navigation, screen displays are a
very crucial item.
The one point I disagree with from previous posts on this thread is the
cost. Someone said $1,500.00, I disagree. You should be looking at about
$2,500.00 for a decent (but still not the best) laptop. About the only real
hope of getting the bright, clear, luminant, high contrast display required
for navigation is by comparing them, unless you go directly to the top of
the line in which case you get the best.
Ruggedness is important on most boats. I have dropped our Panasonic on the
deck a few times and dropped stuff on top of it, banged it getting on and
off, splashed it with salt spray. We don't have the bomb-proof model
either, just the "semi-ruggedized". It just keeps ticking along. Other
brands also offer ruggedization. So consider your environment. Normal
laptops do not like to be knocked about or washed <g>.
The other "gotcha" out there right now is the operating system. As
Microsoft Certified folks we're all trained up on Windows 2000. Windows
2000 Professional was built from the ground up for laptop computers as
compared to Windows NT which has an awkward relationship with most laptops.
So Windows 2000 is wonderful for laptop computers and in a year it will be
the only way to go, but....... It isn't so wonderful right now, for a lot
of existing legacy applications. It's only been out for 2 weeks after all.
It's going to take 6 months or more for applications to be checked and
approved for Windows 2000. So, what to do?
As a computer geek / system integrator I would insist on Windows 2000
Professional on my new laptop, but I can spend 40 hours struggling with
incompatibility issues and call it fun. This would not be my recommendation
to my customers. I think Windows 98 SE is the best laptop OS to provide
trouble free operations with existing applications, including the various
navigation software packages. I would not change to Windows 2000 until it
has been certified by the navigation software people and also when they have
re-written their navigation software to take advantage of Windows 2000 new
features. So for now, maybe for another year, stick with Windows 98 SE. I
don't like Windows 95 for laptops because it has a lot of problems with
modern communications strategies like RRAS and VPN. Most laptop users want
these features.
Warranty is often overlooked. Look for 1 to 3 year, 48 hour, fast
turnaround world-wide warranty too. That usually separates the consumers
form the real laptops.
Advice from the cheap seat <g>
Joe & Debbie Engel
Marine Computer Services & JRE Computer Consulting, Inc.
MV Freda Fly - 1973 40' Tollycraft Tri-cabin
Portland, OR
Not a single word from anybody on MAC computers, laptop Powerbook G3, with a
14" screen, never breaks, never crash, never repair, and a very stable
system 8.6?
As a journalist, I carry it all day long in weird conditions, including
camping, sailing, motorcycling, use it sometimes 10 hours a day, 56 k modem
included, and can even plug it in my Nokia wireless telephone.
When you have a MAC, you also have a PC. MAC can run any PC software, using
something like Virtual PC. But it's slower.
I tried Compaq, Toshiba and IBM laptops. I felt really far from home
Usual stuff applies : I don't owe any of those companies. Too bad.
Bernard Veyron
Noirmoutier
Montreal, Canada
Sometimes, I wish I would move back in a small village South of France, with
a moped to go around, a Sunfish or a rowboat on a pond, and just one
telephone for the whole village, to get in touch here and there with the
rest of the world.
I don't know how long I would last, but I really think about it sometimes.
And I'm not retired yet...
Bernard
I've got all that "stuff" at home and in the office...don't want it on the
boat.
(Wouldn't fit anyway) ;-)
Am I alone on the list, in that alternate simpler approach to boating?
--
Jh
Nimble Nomad
SF Bay & Delta
Joe;
As one professional to another, I say amen and thank you.
If half the folks who use notebooks aboard followed your advice, my tech
support guys would be twiddling their thumbs waiting for the phone to ring.
Your advice on Windows 2000 is extremely accurate. All listees should read
it.
Dennis Mills
I have to agree with Joe Engel about buying quality laptops. I spend years
traveling internationally, always carrying laptops. I saw many broken
systems because my travel mates wanted to go with the cheaper consumer
products. Broken hinges, cracked screens, crashed disks, failed keyboards,
and burnt bower supplies were far too common. The business-class machines
from Toshiba and Compaq were the sturdiest. Dells and most of the IBMs
failed under heavy duty loads. A broken screen can cost up to $1,000,
totally eliminating any cost savings. The company I worked for (a very large
producer of software) only bought Compaq and Toshiba laptops and then only
the largest and sturdiest. In Toshiba, that means the Tecra line.
Boats usage is not much different than international air travel, lots of
bumps, bad environmental conditions, and dependency upon the system,
particularly if it is your primary navigation tool.
I also feel that you should buy the fastest and largest possible, a 350mhz
laptop will be out of date very soon. I soon tired of the hassle of carrying
a laptop onboard and mounting it. I installed a fixed base computer inside
of my lower helm. I was fortunate that it had enough space for a low profile
unit (not a mini-tower, but a true small box. 128kb memory is the minimum,
256 is better these days. Lots of disk, the difference between an 8gb and a
16gb disk is usually $50 or so. If you do have the space for a standard
computer in a nicely dry and warm locker AND have good smooth 110v AC power
from a good quality inverter, you can go with some of the Dell or Gateway
systems. Take a look at the new LCD displays, they save lots of space and
are quite readable in direct light. Be prepared to spend a $1,000 or so on a
unit.
The real issue is how to maintain good high-speed communications to the
'net. This is something that is still not readily available to boaters.
While "high-speed" is defined differently by nearly everyone, I would submit
that semi-serious web access requires a minimum of 28.8. Since most V.90
modems only give 30-40 kbps when dialing into a long distance access number,
we have to be content with that today.
In my working days, I designed global data networks and spent a good part of
my effort in trying to get good data networking access into places like
Zimbabwe and the middle of India. While that was often frustrating, I find
that trying to get good communications to our boat even more frustrating. We
must remember that most of the people who claim good land-based mobile
communications are still working with DOS-based applications and finely
tuned ones that work at 9600 baud. Simple e-mail works at this speed, but
too many of my friends have DSL or cable TV access and I am swamped with
large photos, sound bits, and all of the other trappings of a multi-media
environment.
We all should keep a keen eye on the new satellite ventures, but the failure
of the Motorola Iridium satellite phone system should remind us that leading
edge technologies also often have bleeding edges.
Regards,
Bob Miller
M/V Loon Song
55' HiStar
Anacortes, WA
PS: Windows 2000 will be great for new systems in about six months, as soon
as the application builders have finished device drivers and compatibility
testing. Be sure to test your old apps, since not all of them were built for
NT 5 (Windows 2000). New apps should work fine, but test, test, test. Look
on the web sites of your computer and software suppliers for status reports
regarding Win2K. Remember that most of the computer manufacturers are
releasing new BIOS loads for their older lines, which were designed for
Win95 and Win98. The Toshiba support site is quite good in describing what
is needed to update their laptops to support Windows 2000. The generic
device drivers in Win2K work for most cases, but the special feature that
your laptop designer added may only be supported in a device driver from
that company.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com
[mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Mills
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 1:13 PM
To: Joe Engel; trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Subject: Re: TWL: Re: Cruising communications
Joe;
As one professional to another, I say amen and thank you.
If half the folks who use notebooks aboard followed your advice, my tech
support guys would be twiddling their thumbs waiting for the phone to ring.
Your advice on Windows 2000 is extremely accurate. All listees should read
it.
Dennis Mills
Boats usage is not much different than international air travel, lots of
bumps, bad environmental conditions, and dependency upon the system,
particularly if it is your primary navigation tool
Whoa, back.
There is navigation for entertainment and there is serious navigation. The
direction of this thread in commenting on Laptop ruggedness as an selection
criterion for navigation use needs some adjustment.
The use of ECN (GPS, chart software, nav software, and the computer (at
minimum)) for serious navigation implies that all the hardware is securely
mounted (read permanent), properly powered with professional connectors etc.
that signalling cable is professional quality, that the software foundations
are tested bulletproof (for the application), that its location and mounting
is visable, and finally that the user is trained in its use. Think of it as
installing Radar. A permanently installed laptop while subject to all the
boat movement is not subject to the abuse incurred when travelling. All that
said, laptops are a better choice for this purpose precisely because they
are built to accept a higher level of motion be it bumps or vibration.
The alternative (again for serious navigation) is a portable purpose built
system of which there are several marketed to the professional pilot
marketplace.
For most casual recreational boaters, if the engine starts, hey, we're out
of here. Charts on the computer are entertainment, not nav tools.
As always, diffrent strokes etc.
Richard
Richard said in Re: TWL: Re: Cruising communications at Mar/02/2000
15:43:31.
For most casual recreational boaters, if the engine starts, hey, we're out
of here. Charts on the computer are entertainment, not nav tools.
In that same spirit, while I can understand that true passagemakers and
live-aboard trawler owners with big nice boats may need (or at least want)
all this electronic gadgetry on board...from laptops to TVs to microwaves
to drink blenders...etc etc...
..I find myself not wanting any of that stuff on my little Nimble Nomad
mini-trawler, as I use cruising as an escape from the trappings of work and
business, and actively wish to boat in as simple (and removed from the rest
of the world manner) as practical.
I've got all that "stuff" at home and in the office...don't want it on the
boat.
(Wouldn't fit anyway) ;-)
Am I alone on the list, in that alternate simpler approach to boating?
--
Jh
Nimble Nomad
SF Bay & Delta
Anybody who drops an unencased laptop ....
Most Drops that I have heard about , seem to occur in transit of some
sort .
I saw on one of the computer review shows on TV
a really neat handle that snaps onto a laptop case enabling it to be carried
like a small brief case - it looked like a great improvement over attempting
to carry a laptop without any sort of handle .
The blurb went by to quickly for me to get the name of the manf and
my later attempt to pull up a web site of the TV show was unsuccessful ---
in short
I BLEW IT !!
Has anyone seen such a gadget -- tried one ??
Ken
MV Mrs. Hudson
Just curious, does anyone have a non-portable machine on their boat?
If I recall correctly Bob Reib ( Skipper Bob ) had a
non portable computer aboard Snug -- since he has sold the boat I do not
know if he is following the TWL.
I do not recall that he used it for Navigation however ...
Possibly Mark R could comment further ....
Ken
MV Mrs. Hudson
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com
[mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com]On Behalf Of Joe Engel
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 12:08 PM
To: trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Subject: RE: TWL: Re: Cruising communications
Regarding this whole laptop issue, about which I am profoundly
passionate!
Some Bona Fides first. We've been in the computer biz for 14 years.
know that we know of what we speak.
I been in the biz about twice as long as Joe - That however only proves my
views are probably obsolete.
There has been some good advice on this thread. Most I agree with, a few
points I do not. But my number 1 point of advice is------- DO NOT BUY A
CONSUMER LEVEL LAPTOP COMPUTER for navigation.
Nahh - There is only one significant differentiator - the display. All the
other stuff is commodity in both performance and quality. The industry also
punishes anyone who does anything remotely different - software bugs sure to
appear. So processors, memories, disks, etc. are pretty much the same for
$1000 or $3000.
So you buy as much display as you need or can afford - and note that if your
nav area is in a dark interior cranny any active display will probably be
OK. If you really want a high brightness display in an exposed area you
might like to think about a CRT permanently installed. Can't beat them
electrons and phosphors.
Someone said IBM (we do not sell IBM). In my opinion the IBM top
of the line ThinkPad laptop is the best laptop out there. Its
video screen
is startling better than most all of the other competitors. But it is
expensive as in you get what you pay for folks. A friend of mine just
bought a high end IBM and he shopped every website and mail-order
source for
weeks. He is a VERY frugal person. He spent $3,800.00 with the few bells
and whistles he added. But it is a beauty!
IBM maes a real nice box at a real high premium.
Panasonic, Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, etc. are good brand names and IN THE
BUSINESS CLASS offerings they have nice computers. You should be
looking at
PII or PIII processors speeds. You want to get well ahead of the
obsolescence curve. I don't recommend Compaq (and we do sell and fix
those), especially the Presario which is a consumer system. They're just
too quirky for my liking but their top line business stuff sure is pretty.
For laptop use a celeron is quite adequate. Ain't nothing terribly
challenging about the nav programs. You will obsolete at the same speed as
you will on a PII or PIII. Now servers or hot graphics boxes - different
story.
The big difference in price usually is because of the quality
components and
especially because of the higher quality display, and there is a big, big
difference between cheap and expensive displays, even though they have the
same specifications. As you know, for navigation, screen displays are a
very crucial item.
Agree on the display - all the other stuff is about the same. I do not
believe big expensive displays have the same specs as the cheap ones - same
resolution perhaps but significant differences elsewhere.
The one point I disagree with from previous posts on this thread is the
cost. Someone said $1,500.00, I disagree. You should be looking at about
$2,500.00 for a decent (but still not the best) laptop. About
the only real
hope of getting the bright, clear, luminant, high contrast
display required
for navigation is by comparing them, unless you go directly to the top of
the line in which case you get the best.
Pay more money you get a better display. Given a reasonably unexposed
environment I doubt the difference between $1500 and 2500 is very large.
Remember the eye is not very sensitive to brightness - few people can
differentiate a factor of two if not shown side by side.
Ruggedness is important on most boats.
Anybody who drops an unencased laptop should consider themselves lucky if
it continues working. Most will by the way but it is still a dumb thing to
do. You deal with them in cases and and then bolt them down when out of the
case. One needs to be particularly careful if the laptop is in use - a good
wrap with the disk head unparked is almost certain to cause terminal damage.
The other "gotcha" out there right now is the operating system.
I think W2000 for the geeks and W98 for everybody else. Might be different
in a year but I doubt it.
Warranty is often overlooked. Look for 1 to 3 year, 48 hour, fast
turnaround world-wide warranty too. That usually separates the consumers
form the real laptops.
If you are going cruising I would recommend saving the warranty cost and buy
a spare machine. The ability to get a machine in and out of even civilized
places is very limited. I would guess it is less than 50% to and from
Puerto Vallarta for instance.(You might well be able to get a plain vanilla
machine fixed there - but a high end laptop will have to go back to the
states.) The only workable way from there is to carry it or have it carried
to and from San Diego. And note that it is actually worse than I portray
it - It is almost impossible to get a high end lap top through the formal
system which routes all such gear through Mexico City.
Jim
Just curious, does anyone have a non-portable machine on their boat? I would
almost consider a non-portable machine but I like the fact that portables
can run on battery and that they are engineered for more shock/vibration.
And then there is the space issue. However, the non-portable machines are
easier to get parts for and fix. I am considering a fixed computer for my
next boat and I would be interested to hear of others who have "standard"
computers on their boats.
-mike
Hi all:
I have to jump in here with a few opinions. I haven't given any opinions
for a week or so, and my opinion box is overflowing.
I have a laptop, but it is not going to be the primary computer on the
boat. The reason is that they are too prone to failure. Too many little
bitty connectors inside for one thing. Too much heat for another with no
way to dissipate it. And the case flexes when you pick it up; maybe not
with the new metal cased jobs that someone mentioned, but the plastic
cased ones sure do. This causes intermittent problems to develop if you
haul it around much. This is based on my experience, and I know others
have had good results with them.
My Nav computer is going to be a fixed computer, based on an industrial
chassis and a (probably) Intel motherboard. It will have everything I
need on the motherboard and no plug in cards. These are the most prone
to failure in a fixed installation. I will have a 15" lcd screen, yet to
be chosen, of the $1000 variety, not the super bright. I will have a
fairly tiny hard disk, a few gb, that will contain Cap'n, the operating
system, and perhaps a few utilities. All the rest of the software for
running an on board office will be on the second computer below. Yes,
folks, we may have to wor*k a little bit while cruising. Sad but true.
The above mentioned computer can be put together in a 1-3/4" drawer, 19"
wide (standard U1 rack) which can go below the chart table. The rack
chassis comes with a 120vac power supply. You mount the motherboard and
hard disk, and the floppy if you want one, and you're in business.
Estimated cost:
Chassis $350
Motherboard $150
Celeron 400 mhz Proc $160
128Mb Ram $150
Hard Disk $150
Floppy $25
Keyboard $25
Mouse or trackball $50
Approximate total, $1060, not counting monitor which can run from $800
to $4000, depending.
The reason for choosing the Celeron processor is that it comes in the
Intel Socket 370 which is planar to the motherboard. The Pentium III
usually is in the Slot 1 configuration which means it plugs in at right
angles. The socket 370 is much more rugged. You can also get the Pentium
III in Socket 370, but you don't need it for the nav computer, and it
costs a lot more.
The reason for going this route is that for about $300 more, I can carry
a spare motherboard and a spare hard disk. Both are small and easily
stored. If either one fails, I can repair the thing in less than an
hour. I cannot repair a laptop. I like things I can fix.
Just some more food for thought, and perhaps a different way of looking
at the problem.
Russ
--
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Russ and Donna Sherwin |
| "Four Seasons" |
| 1981 Marine Trader DC44 |
| Sunnyvale, Ca 94087 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
Mike and all:
I will have two fixed computers in the boat; one in the pilot house and
one in the "office". Also a laptop, but only for convenience and for
taking ashore. You can buy lots of industrial chassis in various
configurations that are appealing for boats. Most standard motherboards
will fit them. It's not necessary to stick with the computer store
standard ATX mini-tower. There are rack mounts, custom chassis, NLX (see
below) and all-in-one which combine the screen and all into a flush
mounted package. Think $$$. Most come with 120vac power supplies
(standard) and with some you can pay a little more and get a 12 or 24vdc
power supply. These are "roll your own" computers, obviously, unless you
want to pay really big bucks for a fully assembled one, but it's not
brain surgery to build up a computer. The one you build up can be just
as good and just as reliable as one you buy from any of the big
manufacturers. Our success rate with two different "name" manufacturers
in our company is about 70% work right out of the box; 30% have
problems. The key factor is choosing a motherboard that has all the
features you want and none you don't want, by a reputable manufacturer.
They are cheap enough you can buy two while you're at it. Probably no
need to have a spare CPU; I've never had one fail yet.
There is a mini case format called NLX which is quite appealing. The NLX
cases hold one HD, one motherboard, a floppy or zip drive, a power
supply and up to two plug in PCI cards. There are some becoming
commercially available as finished computers. I have just bought a Sony
Vaio PCV-L630 for the main office computer on the boat. Its case is
3-1/2 x 11-1/2 x 13-1/2 inches. It comes with a 15" LCD monitor and 17gb
drive, 128mb memory for $2700. This is on the pricy side for a fixed
computer, but almost $1200 of that is the monitor. Compaq also has one
the same size with smaller HD and 64Mb memory for $1900. These NLX cases
are going to be getting very popular in my opinion. And they use the
socket 370 Pentium or Celeron chip which is very good in a shock and
vibration environment. The Sony is built like a tank. (I do not sell or
promote computers. This is not a recommendation that you buy any
particular brand)
Much has been said about getting a "good" laptop with a "good" warranty,
whatever those are. For my money, I'd much rather have a spare
motherboard and a spare HD than a warranty, any day. A warranty is not
going to do me much good in most foreign ports. A motherboard and a
screwdriver will.
As always, these are only opinions and worth what you paid for them.
Russ
Mike Harrington wrote:
Just curious, does anyone have a non-portable machine on their boat?
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Russ and Donna Sherwin |
| "Four Seasons" |
| 1981 Marine Trader DC44 |
| Sunnyvale, Ca 94087 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
Russ, what is the source for the computer chassis??
Thanks
Ted
Just curious, does anyone have a non-portable machine on their boat?
We have a full tower desktop with 9 drives on it. This one has been onboard
for 2 years and the previous one was on the boat for 7 years. This system
is networked with an older laptop thru Intel Anypoint network, which
networks thru the existing vessel phonelines.
This way the laptop can access the hard drives, etc. of the larger machine
and can be used anywhere on the boat but still print. It will not access
the scanner on the main machine. Both machines can be online at the same
time with 1 internet connection.
Louise
Aboard Caper in Gloucester
www.sspboatsite.com