trawlers@lists.trawlering.com

TRAWLERS & TRAWLERING LIST

View all threads

Re: T&T: Schilling rudder

L
lrzeitlin@aol.com
Mon, Mar 8, 2010 3:43 PM

Wayne writes about Ted's schilling rudder:

"Looks good and its easy to see why it should work well. One small
point though, you didn't make a hole in it to pass the prop shaft
through it should that ever become necessary. It was there in your
bronze rudder."


Many of the advantages of the Schilling rudder can be achieved by
bolting 10 degree wedges to the aft third of a bronze rudder plate. The
wedges serve like flaps on an airfoil and let the rudder be effective
at a greater angle. The main problem with powerboat rudders is that
they are too small to control the boat properly at marina speeds and
rely primarily on deflecting the thrust of the propeller. Compare the
size of a powerboat rudder to a similarly sized sailboat and you will
see what I mean.
Larry Z

Wayne writes about Ted's schilling rudder: "Looks good and its easy to see why it should work well. One small point though, you didn't make a hole in it to pass the prop shaft through it should that ever become necessary. It was there in your bronze rudder." - - - - - Many of the advantages of the Schilling rudder can be achieved by bolting 10 degree wedges to the aft third of a bronze rudder plate. The wedges serve like flaps on an airfoil and let the rudder be effective at a greater angle. The main problem with powerboat rudders is that they are too small to control the boat properly at marina speeds and rely primarily on deflecting the thrust of the propeller. Compare the size of a powerboat rudder to a similarly sized sailboat and you will see what I mean. Larry Z
RM
Rod Mell
Mon, Mar 8, 2010 4:24 PM

One thing I'm curious about on any of these rudder mods is the affect on
reverse. That's typically where single screw boats have the least
control. Would hate to make it worse!

Rod & Sandra Mell
NiSa, Monk 34
Powell River, BC

On 3/8/2010 7:43 AM, lrzeitlin@aol.com wrote:

-Many of the advantages of the Schilling rudder can be achieved by
bolting 10 degree wedges to the aft third of a bronze rudder plate. The
wedges serve like flaps on an airfoil and let the rudder be effective
at a greater angle. The main problem with powerboat rudders is that
they are too small to control the boat properly at marina speeds and
rely primarily on deflecting the thrust of the propeller. Compare the
size of a powerboat rudder to a similarly sized sailboat and you will
see what I mean.
Larry Z

One thing I'm curious about on any of these rudder mods is the affect on reverse. That's typically where single screw boats have the least control. Would hate to make it worse! Rod & Sandra Mell NiSa, Monk 34 Powell River, BC On 3/8/2010 7:43 AM, lrzeitlin@aol.com wrote: > -Many of the advantages of the Schilling rudder can be achieved by > bolting 10 degree wedges to the aft third of a bronze rudder plate. The > wedges serve like flaps on an airfoil and let the rudder be effective > at a greater angle. The main problem with powerboat rudders is that > they are too small to control the boat properly at marina speeds and > rely primarily on deflecting the thrust of the propeller. Compare the > size of a powerboat rudder to a similarly sized sailboat and you will > see what I mean. > Larry Z
RT
Richard Tomkinson
Mon, Mar 8, 2010 4:34 PM

"Looks good and its easy to see why it should work well. One small
point though, you didn't make a hole in it to pass the prop shaft
through it should that ever become necessary. It was there in your
bronze rudder."

I added the vertical fins on the aft edge of my rudder. Had the same effect
as reported, inexpensive and no change to the shaft removal hole.

The pictures show one other important change from a standard rudder. Note
the horizontal plates at the top and bottom. These hold the prop wash into
the rudder area and make quite a difference all by themselves.
Richard

> "Looks good and its easy to see why it should work well. One small > point though, you didn't make a hole in it to pass the prop shaft > through it should that ever become necessary. It was there in your > bronze rudder." I added the vertical fins on the aft edge of my rudder. Had the same effect as reported, inexpensive and no change to the shaft removal hole. The pictures show one other important change from a standard rudder. Note the horizontal plates at the top and bottom. These hold the prop wash into the rudder area and make quite a difference all by themselves. Richard
S
sealubber7@aol.com
Mon, Mar 8, 2010 7:48 PM

I  would think that if that rudder shape would go from what was shown, back
to an hydrodynamic smooth edge (point) that there would be less drag and
turbulence in forward and that backing would not be affected as much. Just a
guess

-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Mell nwboater@gmail.com
To: TWL trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:24 am
Subject: Re: T&T: Schilling rudder

One thing I'm curious about on any of these rudder mods is the affect on
reverse. That's typically where single screw boats have the least control.
Would hate to make it worse!

Rod & Sandra Mell
NiSa, Monk 34
Powell River, BC

On 3/8/2010 7:43 AM, lrzeitlin@aol.com wrote:

-Many of the advantages of the Schilling rudder can be achieved by
bolting 10 degree wedges to the aft third of a bronze rudder plate. The
wedges serve like flaps on an airfoil and let the rudder be effective
at a greater angle. The main problem with powerboat rudders is that
they are too small to control the boat properly at marina speeds and
rely primarily on deflecting the thrust of the propeller. Compare the
size of a powerboat rudder to a similarly sized sailboat and you will
see what I mean.
Larry Z


http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.

I would think that if that rudder shape would go from what was shown, back to an hydrodynamic smooth edge (point) that there would be less drag and turbulence in forward and that backing would not be affected as much. Just a guess -----Original Message----- From: Rod Mell <nwboater@gmail.com> To: TWL <trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com> Sent: Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:24 am Subject: Re: T&T: Schilling rudder One thing I'm curious about on any of these rudder mods is the affect on reverse. That's typically where single screw boats have the least control. Would hate to make it worse! Rod & Sandra Mell NiSa, Monk 34 Powell River, BC On 3/8/2010 7:43 AM, lrzeitlin@aol.com wrote: > -Many of the advantages of the Schilling rudder can be achieved by > bolting 10 degree wedges to the aft third of a bronze rudder plate. The > wedges serve like flaps on an airfoil and let the rudder be effective > at a greater angle. The main problem with powerboat rudders is that > they are too small to control the boat properly at marina speeds and > rely primarily on deflecting the thrust of the propeller. Compare the > size of a powerboat rudder to a similarly sized sailboat and you will > see what I mean. > Larry Z _______________________________________________ http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
DA
Darrell Abed
Mon, Mar 8, 2010 8:23 PM

I've been following this closely as I want to do something to improve the
maneuvering.  My previous boat, a 23' heavy displacement sailboat, had the
standard, cheap, flat plate rudder.  Using a tiller you could feel the
turbulence and how easy it was to stall when tacking.  I built a NACA airfoil
out of bondo and the difference was dramatic.  Later, a small company started
building a plastic version; more professionally done than mine and
substantially lighter weight.  Well worth the price.

Anyhow - since my single screw MT doesn't steer for jack in reverse (I've
learned to work the prop walk fairly well) I'm not sure an airfoil rudder will
have any effect in reverse, or if I even care.

I'm liking the idea of bolting on the 10 degree wedges to the aft 1/3 of the
rudder.  Can anyone provide some more detail on that solution?  I'd prefer to
do that than the full airfoil build for the reason mentioned in an earlier
e-mail; pulling the prop shaft.

Thanks,
Darrell

To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 14:48:45 -0500
From: sealubber7@aol.com
Subject: Re: T&T: Schilling rudder

I would think that if that rudder shape would go from what was shown, back
to an hydrodynamic smooth edge (point) that there would be less drag and
turbulence in forward and that backing would not be affected as much. Just

a

guess

-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Mell nwboater@gmail.com
To: TWL trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:24 am
Subject: Re: T&T: Schilling rudder

One thing I'm curious about on any of these rudder mods is the affect on
reverse. That's typically where single screw boats have the least control.
Would hate to make it worse!

Rod & Sandra Mell
NiSa, Monk 34
Powell River, BC

On 3/8/2010 7:43 AM, lrzeitlin@aol.com wrote:

-Many of the advantages of the Schilling rudder can be achieved by
bolting 10 degree wedges to the aft third of a bronze rudder plate. The
wedges serve like flaps on an airfoil and let the rudder be effective
at a greater angle. The main problem with powerboat rudders is that
they are too small to control the boat properly at marina speeds and
rely primarily on deflecting the thrust of the propeller. Compare the
size of a powerboat rudder to a similarly sized sailboat and you will
see what I mean.
Larry Z


http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change

email

address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.


http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.

I've been following this closely as I want to do something to improve the maneuvering. My previous boat, a 23' heavy displacement sailboat, had the standard, cheap, flat plate rudder. Using a tiller you could feel the turbulence and how easy it was to stall when tacking. I built a NACA airfoil out of bondo and the difference was dramatic. Later, a small company started building a plastic version; more professionally done than mine and substantially lighter weight. Well worth the price. Anyhow - since my single screw MT doesn't steer for jack in reverse (I've learned to work the prop walk fairly well) I'm not sure an airfoil rudder will have any effect in reverse, or if I even care. I'm liking the idea of bolting on the 10 degree wedges to the aft 1/3 of the rudder. Can anyone provide some more detail on that solution? I'd prefer to do that than the full airfoil build for the reason mentioned in an earlier e-mail; pulling the prop shaft. Thanks, Darrell > To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 14:48:45 -0500 > From: sealubber7@aol.com > Subject: Re: T&T: Schilling rudder > > I would think that if that rudder shape would go from what was shown, back > to an hydrodynamic smooth edge (point) that there would be less drag and > turbulence in forward and that backing would not be affected as much. Just a > guess > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rod Mell <nwboater@gmail.com> > To: TWL <trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com> > Sent: Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:24 am > Subject: Re: T&T: Schilling rudder > > > One thing I'm curious about on any of these rudder mods is the affect on > reverse. That's typically where single screw boats have the least control. > Would hate to make it worse! > > Rod & Sandra Mell > NiSa, Monk 34 > Powell River, BC > > On 3/8/2010 7:43 AM, lrzeitlin@aol.com wrote: > > -Many of the advantages of the Schilling rudder can be achieved by > > bolting 10 degree wedges to the aft third of a bronze rudder plate. The > > wedges serve like flaps on an airfoil and let the rudder be effective > > at a greater angle. The main problem with powerboat rudders is that > > they are too small to control the boat properly at marina speeds and > > rely primarily on deflecting the thrust of the propeller. Compare the > > size of a powerboat rudder to a similarly sized sailboat and you will > > see what I mean. > > Larry Z > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email > address, etc) go to: > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering > > Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World > Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited. > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering > > Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World > Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
RA
Rudy and Jill
Mon, Mar 8, 2010 10:31 PM

I  would think that if that
rudder shape would go from what was shown, back
to an hydrodynamic smooth edge (point) that there would be
less drag and
turbulence in forward and that backing would not be
affected as much.

A sharp tailing edge would seem to be the right thing to do, but it's been
shown that a sharp edged, squared off tailing edge works better. It allows the
water to break away cleaner from the rudder, whereas a sharp pointed trailing
edge causes considerable turbulence.

The tailing edge on our rudder is approximately 1 - 1 1/4 inch wide (it
doesn't vary, I just forgotten which it is) and the body is foil shaped. In
spite of its width, it works like a charm.

Just as important for the rudder is its leading edge, but kinda the opposite
of the tailing edge. The leading edge should be a bullnose shape which
transitions into the foil shape with very fair lines.

But, as been mentioned, it is often cheaper to weld on end plates, and wings
on the tailing edge, than it is to develop a foil shape over the entire
rudder. Then again, if you are doing the work yourself, cost is not much of a
factor and the fun you'll have goes beyond description.

Keep in mind though that we're talking about displacement hulls.
Semi-displacement and planing hulls have rudders that are designed to handle
the stress' involved in those boat's theoretical top speeds, which
necessitates smaller rudders with no appendages sticking out of them.

If you're going to go and stick stuff out of the sides of one of those
rudders, the rudder post and all the boat's corresponding gearing and fittings
will need to be beefed up to match the additional strain that would be put on
them.

In fact, it might be a good idea to make sure even a low speed rudder's shaft,
shaft log and its gearing, bearings, and other paraphernalia is up to the
added strains of any alteration that might be done to it.

The boat may be going slow, relative to a higher speed boat, but when in a bit
of a hard go, considerable stress can be placed on the rudder and adding extra
surface area may overtax the designer's original scantlings.

Sorry if I rained on anybody's parade, but sometimes it is better to be safe
than sorry.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl

> I would think that if that > rudder shape would go from what was shown, back > to an hydrodynamic smooth edge (point) that there would be > less drag and > turbulence in forward and that backing would not be > affected as much. A sharp tailing edge would seem to be the right thing to do, but it's been shown that a sharp edged, squared off tailing edge works better. It allows the water to break away cleaner from the rudder, whereas a sharp pointed trailing edge causes considerable turbulence. The tailing edge on our rudder is approximately 1 - 1 1/4 inch wide (it doesn't vary, I just forgotten which it is) and the body is foil shaped. In spite of its width, it works like a charm. Just as important for the rudder is its leading edge, but kinda the opposite of the tailing edge. The leading edge should be a bullnose shape which transitions into the foil shape with very fair lines. But, as been mentioned, it is often cheaper to weld on end plates, and wings on the tailing edge, than it is to develop a foil shape over the entire rudder. Then again, if you are doing the work yourself, cost is not much of a factor and the fun you'll have goes beyond description. Keep in mind though that we're talking about displacement hulls. Semi-displacement and planing hulls have rudders that are designed to handle the stress' involved in those boat's theoretical top speeds, which necessitates smaller rudders with no appendages sticking out of them. If you're going to go and stick stuff out of the sides of one of those rudders, the rudder post and all the boat's corresponding gearing and fittings will need to be beefed up to match the additional strain that would be put on them. In fact, it might be a good idea to make sure even a low speed rudder's shaft, shaft log and its gearing, bearings, and other paraphernalia is up to the added strains of any alteration that might be done to it. The boat may be going slow, relative to a higher speed boat, but when in a bit of a hard go, considerable stress can be placed on the rudder and adding extra surface area may overtax the designer's original scantlings. Sorry if I rained on anybody's parade, but sometimes it is better to be safe than sorry. Rudy Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
AW
Andy Woods
Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:41 PM

One thing I'm curious about on any of these rudder mods is the affect on
reverse. That's typically where single screw boats have the least
control. Would hate to make it worse!

No worries, there!  The rudder is essentially useless in reverse.  Once you
learn how to back and fill and using the prop walk to your advantage your
realize there is no steerage in reverse.

Regards,

Andy

Andy Woods

Grand Folly
1970 Grand Banks 36 Classic
Blades, DE.
grandfolly@hotmail.com

> One thing I'm curious about on any of these rudder mods is the affect on > reverse. That's typically where single screw boats have the least > control. Would hate to make it worse! No worries, there! The rudder is essentially useless in reverse. Once you learn how to back and fill and using the prop walk to your advantage your realize there is no steerage in reverse. Regards, Andy Andy Woods Grand Folly 1970 Grand Banks 36 Classic Blades, DE. grandfolly@hotmail.com
JP
Joseph Pica
Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:37 AM

Snip:"...Just as important for the rudder is its leading edge, but kinda the
opposite of the tailing edge. The leading edge should be a bullnose shape
which transitions into the foil shape with very fair lines.

But, as been mentioned, it is often cheaper to weld on end plates, and wings
on the tailing edge, than it is to develop a foil shape over the entire
rudder. ..."

A variant of the shilling rubber (fish tail) has been standard equipment on
Great Harbour displacement trawlers for four years and has been a desired
retro fit item given the "fish tail" rudder's greater performance in greatly
reducing the turning radius and increasing helm responsiveness.  They are
foil shaped like an airplane wing with hydrodynamic endplates at the top and
bottom. These rudders are built of dense, steel-reinforced fiberglass.

To quote a much more educated person than I,"...This rudder design for the
Great Harbour Trawlers is really an old one, and is derived from historical
designs that sought to both extend the stall free range of rudder angle and
develop high lift at all rudder angles. The end plates top and bottom
increase the rudder's effective aspect ratio. In layman's terms, they force
the water into behaving as though the rudder is far deeper than it actually
is by preventing water from flowing over the ends of the rudder. This would
rob lift producing pressure differential and create turbulence to increase
drag. The fish shaped cross section, though, is really the key to success.

The rounded leading edge delays the stall angle, as does the wedge shaped
trailing edge on the low-pressure side. The wedge on the high-pressure face
greatly increases lift from the back end of the airfoil, which is typically
quite ineffective. And it shifts the center of pressure of the rudder aft a
bit, allowing the rudder stock to located closer to the center of the
rudder, which in turn forces more of the rudder blade into the propeller's
slip stream.

The first trial results have been outstanding. On side-by-side tests of
identical boats fitted with the old and new rudders, the new rudders turned
in one half the turning diameter of the old at low RPMs and about 60 percent
of the diameter at high speed. The turning diameter at full RPM is now about
three boat lengths at lower rpm's the new rudder cut circles at 1/2 the
diameter of the old; at mid-range rpm's approximately 60 per cent and
slightly less at the high end. Of course how the rudder is set may make a
difference...."

Bottom line they work very well for shallow draft displacement speed
trawlers like the Great Harbours. Backing is a function of centering the
rudders and using differential throttle (and or bow thruster if needed and
equipped) to control the boat's direction in reverse.  This rudder
effectiveness also facilitates a more effective 90 degree sideways motion
when splitting plants with rudder over.

Joe

Carolyn Ann  GH N-37

Snip:"...Just as important for the rudder is its leading edge, but kinda the opposite of the tailing edge. The leading edge should be a bullnose shape which transitions into the foil shape with very fair lines. But, as been mentioned, it is often cheaper to weld on end plates, and wings on the tailing edge, than it is to develop a foil shape over the entire rudder. ..." A variant of the shilling rubber (fish tail) has been standard equipment on Great Harbour displacement trawlers for four years and has been a desired retro fit item given the "fish tail" rudder's greater performance in greatly reducing the turning radius and increasing helm responsiveness. They are foil shaped like an airplane wing with hydrodynamic endplates at the top and bottom. These rudders are built of dense, steel-reinforced fiberglass. To quote a much more educated person than I,"...This rudder design for the Great Harbour Trawlers is really an old one, and is derived from historical designs that sought to both extend the stall free range of rudder angle and develop high lift at all rudder angles. The end plates top and bottom increase the rudder's effective aspect ratio. In layman's terms, they force the water into behaving as though the rudder is far deeper than it actually is by preventing water from flowing over the ends of the rudder. This would rob lift producing pressure differential and create turbulence to increase drag. The fish shaped cross section, though, is really the key to success. The rounded leading edge delays the stall angle, as does the wedge shaped trailing edge on the low-pressure side. The wedge on the high-pressure face greatly increases lift from the back end of the airfoil, which is typically quite ineffective. And it shifts the center of pressure of the rudder aft a bit, allowing the rudder stock to located closer to the center of the rudder, which in turn forces more of the rudder blade into the propeller's slip stream. The first trial results have been outstanding. On side-by-side tests of identical boats fitted with the old and new rudders, the new rudders turned in one half the turning diameter of the old at low RPMs and about 60 percent of the diameter at high speed. The turning diameter at full RPM is now about three boat lengths at lower rpm's the new rudder cut circles at 1/2 the diameter of the old; at mid-range rpm's approximately 60 per cent and slightly less at the high end. Of course how the rudder is set may make a difference...." Bottom line they work very well for shallow draft displacement speed trawlers like the Great Harbours. Backing is a function of centering the rudders and using differential throttle (and or bow thruster if needed and equipped) to control the boat's direction in reverse. This rudder effectiveness also facilitates a more effective 90 degree sideways motion when splitting plants with rudder over. Joe Carolyn Ann GH N-37
A
Albin43SDtr
Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:29 PM

'Lo All,

First, I am not an aerodynamic (can I say that here?) or hydrodynamic
engineer, but I studied aerodynamics when I designed a two-seat
airplane - I made a model of it which was squashed during the Alaskan
Earthquake. Being in the USAF and moving an average of every 11
months, I never had a place nor time to actually build it. I sent the
plans to the Experimental Aircraft Association for evaluation as it
did not follow the usual paradigms of the day - and a few years
later, an aircraft emerged that was strikingly familiar. Also, I have
owned two airplanes. (All the above to show my credentials - or lack there of.)

The Schilling Rudder simply uses the widely known and accepted rules
of aerodynamics, or, more acceptably in this case, hydrodynamics. An
airfoil, designed for the desired speed range is little different
that a hydrofoil, designed for its desired speed range.
Unfortunately, boat design never progressed as far as
aircraft/aerodynamic designs because the payoff was much less, except
for special niches, such as sailboat racing, and to a lesser extent,
powerboat racing. Look at how long it took shipbuilders to add
bulbous bows...which significantly reduces fuel consumption, and for
tugs to employ variations of Kort nozzles which significantly
improves maneuverability and thrust.

The Schilling Rudder is essentially dual, opposing, fixed trim tabs
on a symmetrical wing. The reason it works better for turning is that
water strikes the trailing edge and is diverted, just as a trim tab
on an airplane diverts the air, causing an additional force to be
generated. When turning, say, hard to port, the port side of the
rudder thrusts the water off the rudder at a greater angle than that
of the rudder, relative to the keel, while the starboard side induces
little to no thrust, as it is in at least partially stalled/turbulent
water and the thrust angle is reduced. (It's the difference between
these two opposing forces that cause the rudder to turn a boat
better.) The leading edge airfoil causes much less drag at normal
operating rudder angles because the water can follow the shape of the
rudder more easily without breaking away. When the smooth water flow
breaks away from the rudder surface, it causes turbulence and thus,
drag. Again, we can thank aerodynamic research, specifically the
National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA), now NASA, for all
the airfoils they tested and documented. (My airplane design, for
example used the NACA 23012 airfoil at the wing root and tapered to a
NACA 23010 airfoil at the wing tips.)

An articulated trim tab on a boat's rudder would be more efficient
than fixed tabs, such as used in the Schilling Rudder. The most
probable reason they are not widely used is the relatively small gain
in efficiency when balanced against the complexity of the linkage and
the ease of damage when the rudder hits something solid. Of course,
all rudders need to be clean to be efficient. Any hard growth, such
as barnacles and oyster shells dramatically reduce a rudder's
efficiency and increase drag. I have no knowledge of how the
Schilling Rudder would work in reverse, other than to speculate that
there would be a small penalty due to the fact that effective rudder
angle is reduced approaching the leading/front edge from the point of
maximum chord (thickness), thus probably reducing the effective size
of the rudder. That should be off-set somewhat, however, by the
prop's increased efficiency due to less turbulent water. (???) A
smoothly curved face on the trailing edge endplate would also be more
efficient than a "T" shape of bolted-on angle stock. Obviously, there
is lots of room for research to tweak boat design, but at our speeds,
the cost vs gain ratio would be prohibitive except in a case, such as
Capt. Will's, where it was just his own curiosity that drove him to
investigate and document those subjects that were of particular
interest to him.

I hope this explanation is not too far off - please correct me where
I may be wrong....and I hope it helps to clear up some folks' idea of
how it works and why.

Take care and be safe.

Wayne
Celestial
Albin 43 Sundeck
Near Panama City, FL

'Lo All, First, I am not an aerodynamic (can I say that here?) or hydrodynamic engineer, but I studied aerodynamics when I designed a two-seat airplane - I made a model of it which was squashed during the Alaskan Earthquake. Being in the USAF and moving an average of every 11 months, I never had a place nor time to actually build it. I sent the plans to the Experimental Aircraft Association for evaluation as it did not follow the usual paradigms of the day - and a few years later, an aircraft emerged that was strikingly familiar. Also, I have owned two airplanes. (All the above to show my credentials - or lack there of.) The Schilling Rudder simply uses the widely known and accepted rules of aerodynamics, or, more acceptably in this case, hydrodynamics. An airfoil, designed for the desired speed range is little different that a hydrofoil, designed for its desired speed range. Unfortunately, boat design never progressed as far as aircraft/aerodynamic designs because the payoff was much less, except for special niches, such as sailboat racing, and to a lesser extent, powerboat racing. Look at how long it took shipbuilders to add bulbous bows...which significantly reduces fuel consumption, and for tugs to employ variations of Kort nozzles which significantly improves maneuverability and thrust. The Schilling Rudder is essentially dual, opposing, fixed trim tabs on a symmetrical wing. The reason it works better for turning is that water strikes the trailing edge and is diverted, just as a trim tab on an airplane diverts the air, causing an additional force to be generated. When turning, say, hard to port, the port side of the rudder thrusts the water off the rudder at a greater angle than that of the rudder, relative to the keel, while the starboard side induces little to no thrust, as it is in at least partially stalled/turbulent water and the thrust angle is reduced. (It's the difference between these two opposing forces that cause the rudder to turn a boat better.) The leading edge airfoil causes much less drag at normal operating rudder angles because the water can follow the shape of the rudder more easily without breaking away. When the smooth water flow breaks away from the rudder surface, it causes turbulence and thus, drag. Again, we can thank aerodynamic research, specifically the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA), now NASA, for all the airfoils they tested and documented. (My airplane design, for example used the NACA 23012 airfoil at the wing root and tapered to a NACA 23010 airfoil at the wing tips.) An articulated trim tab on a boat's rudder would be more efficient than fixed tabs, such as used in the Schilling Rudder. The most probable reason they are not widely used is the relatively small gain in efficiency when balanced against the complexity of the linkage and the ease of damage when the rudder hits something solid. Of course, all rudders need to be clean to be efficient. Any hard growth, such as barnacles and oyster shells dramatically reduce a rudder's efficiency and increase drag. I have no knowledge of how the Schilling Rudder would work in reverse, other than to speculate that there would be a small penalty due to the fact that effective rudder angle is reduced approaching the leading/front edge from the point of maximum chord (thickness), thus probably reducing the effective size of the rudder. That should be off-set somewhat, however, by the prop's increased efficiency due to less turbulent water. (???) A smoothly curved face on the trailing edge endplate would also be more efficient than a "T" shape of bolted-on angle stock. Obviously, there is lots of room for research to tweak boat design, but at our speeds, the cost vs gain ratio would be prohibitive except in a case, such as Capt. Will's, where it was just his own curiosity that drove him to investigate and document those subjects that were of particular interest to him. I hope this explanation is not too far off - please correct me where I may be wrong....and I hope it helps to clear up some folks' idea of how it works and why. Take care and be safe. Wayne Celestial Albin 43 Sundeck Near Panama City, FL
DA
Darrell Abed
Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:39 PM

I'm already sold on a NACA airfoil.  I've built one before and I know it
works.  But what I can't get is details on what appears to be a less labor/$
intensive solution which are the wedges on the aft 1/3 of the rudder.

Can anyone expound on that?

Thanks,
Darrell

MT 34' Sedan Moon Dance

Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:29:49 -0600
To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
From: Albin43SDtr@comcast.net
Subject: Re: T&T: Schilling rudder (long)

'Lo All,

First, I am not an aerodynamic (can I say that here?) or hydrodynamic
engineer, but I studied aerodynamics when I designed a two-seat

I'm already sold on a NACA airfoil. I've built one before and I know it works. But what I can't get is details on what appears to be a less labor/$ intensive solution which are the wedges on the aft 1/3 of the rudder. Can anyone expound on that? Thanks, Darrell MT 34' Sedan Moon Dance > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:29:49 -0600 > To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com > From: Albin43SDtr@comcast.net > Subject: Re: T&T: Schilling rudder (long) > > 'Lo All, > > First, I am not an aerodynamic (can I say that here?) or hydrodynamic > engineer, but I studied aerodynamics when I designed a two-seat