SC Cut
Curious who came up with the SC cut first ?
The well done Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator
doesn't say
-pete
In message CAA-F0u_NoDs3PYR384pHP4-v53QO7cjnMZD0osTApMgO9GW3tg@mail.gmail.com
, Pete Lancashire writes:
Curious who came up with the SC cut first ?
I think I saw that mentioned in a BSTJ article I read recently.
I'm reading them all, end to end, so don't ask me which one...
Go here: http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/
Search for "quartz" or any other interesting word, but only if you
have nothing important to do for a couple of hours...
My favorite so far:
The incredible short timespan from somebody noticed that a diode
with a scratch in the black coating produced a voltage when light
hit it, until the launched a satellite covered in solar cells...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Hi
The answer to any crystal cut origin question is always a bit murky. People
have been chopping quarts in strange ways for quite a while. Certainly the
first to popularize the SC cut were the boys at HP.
One common answer to these questions is "it's in Heising":
http://books.google.com/books/about/Quartz_crystals_for_electrical_circuits.
html?id=2-4gAAAAMAAJ
Of course a lot depends on just how much you read between the lines....
The Wikipedia article is a bit odd. The crystal oscillator industry was
quite crowded long before Statek came along. There is a lot of history
missing there...
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Pete Lancashire
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 12:00 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] SC Cut
Curious who came up with the SC cut first ?
The well done Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator
doesn't say
-pete
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
It is credited to Errol EerNisse in 1974 who discovered it mathematically.
David
On 9/11/12 12:08 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message CAA-F0u_NoDs3PYR384pHP4-v53QO7cjnMZD0osTApMgO9GW3tg@mail.gmail.com
, Pete Lancashire writes:
Curious who came up with the SC cut first ?
I think I saw that mentioned in a BSTJ article I read recently.
I'm reading them all, end to end, so don't ask me which one...
Go here: http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/
Search for "quartz" or any other interesting word, but only if you
have nothing important to do for a couple of hours...
My favorite so far:
The incredible short timespan from somebody noticed that a diode
with a scratch in the black coating produced a voltage when light
hit it, until the launched a satellite covered in solar cells...
The SC cut crystal is generally credited to Jack Kusters
(of HP) and Errol Ernisse. The story was something like
Errol proposed the concept and Jack actually made the
first one, which was quite non-trivial.
Jack used to joke that "SC" stood for Santa
Clara. (Jack and I worked for the old HP Santa Clara
Division). Jack, along with Charles Adams and Jim Collin,
produced 100's of thousands of SC cut crystals and taught the
rest of the industry how to make them. Jack was very
particular about making them "correctly" in terms of
angle of cut, etc. He was really proud of his X-ray
system that was accurate to 2 arc-seconds. This was
instrumental in being able to actually fabricate "true"
SC cut crystals.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
On 9/11/2012 9:38 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
The answer to any crystal cut origin question is always a bit murky. People
have been chopping quarts in strange ways for quite a while. Certainly the
first to popularize the SC cut were the boys at HP.
One common answer to these questions is "it's in Heising":
http://books.google.com/books/about/Quartz_crystals_for_electrical_circuits.
html?id=2-4gAAAAMAAJ
Of course a lot depends on just how much you read between the lines....
The Wikipedia article is a bit odd. The crystal oscillator industry was
quite crowded long before Statek came along. There is a lot of history
missing there...
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Pete Lancashire
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 12:00 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] SC Cut
Curious who came up with the SC cut first ?
The well done Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator
doesn't say
-pete
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 9/11/2012 10:01 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
The SC cut crystal is generally credited to Jack Kusters
(of HP) and Errol Ernisse. The story was something like
Errol proposed the concept and Jack actually made the
first one, which was quite non-trivial.
Jack used to joke that "SC" stood for Santa
Clara. (Jack and I worked for the old HP Santa Clara
Division). Jack, along with Charles Adams and Jim Collin,
produced 100's of thousands of SC cut crystals and taught the
rest of the industry how to make them. Jack was very
particular about making them "correctly" in terms of
angle of cut, etc. He was really proud of his X-ray
system that was accurate to 2 arc-seconds. This was
instrumental in being able to actually fabricate "true"
SC cut crystals.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
If there is a web citation of this, I can edit the article and add the
citation and information. I don't like any of the citations in the
section about SC cuts because none of the verbiage is still visible and
as you mention the critical information as to the origin is missing
after stating it originated in 1974. At the least a citation with
Rick's info and a date would be better in the first sentence if it is
online.
I hate that they require online citation, but have no way of ensuring
you can go to the source material even given the link. There is a peeing
contest ongoing about that on another thread and list which is why I'm
responding here.these bits of information from you guys who probably
know better than most are not considered the "best" source, which I
think is silly.
jim
There is plenty of documentation at the IEEE web
site in the UFFC society's section. EerNisse
gave a paper at the Frequency Control Symposium
on it at the time. Kusters followed up a year
later with experimental data. I am not aware of
any controversy about these two guys being the
inventors, and I have attended many FCS's. I
don't know how you prove to the Wiki police that
there is no paper predating EerNisse's paper.
Maybe there is a patent on it.
On 9/11/2012 2:22 PM, jim s wrote:
On 9/11/2012 10:01 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
The SC cut crystal is generally credited to Jack Kusters
(of HP) and Errol Ernisse. The story was something like
Errol proposed the concept and Jack actually made the
first one, which was quite non-trivial.
Jack used to joke that "SC" stood for Santa
Clara. (Jack and I worked for the old HP Santa Clara
Division). Jack, along with Charles Adams and Jim Collin,
produced 100's of thousands of SC cut crystals and taught the
rest of the industry how to make them. Jack was very
particular about making them "correctly" in terms of
angle of cut, etc. He was really proud of his X-ray
system that was accurate to 2 arc-seconds. This was
instrumental in being able to actually fabricate "true"
SC cut crystals.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
If there is a web citation of this, I can edit the article and add the
citation and information. I don't like any of the citations in the
section about SC cuts because none of the verbiage is still visible and
as you mention the critical information as to the origin is missing
after stating it originated in 1974. At the least a citation with
Rick's info and a date would be better in the first sentence if it is
online.
I hate that they require online citation, but have no way of ensuring
you can go to the source material even given the link. There is a peeing
contest ongoing about that on another thread and list which is why I'm
responding here.these bits of information from you guys who probably
know better than most are not considered the "best" source, which I
think is silly.
jim
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 09/12/2012 12:00 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
There is plenty of documentation at the IEEE web
site in the UFFC society's section. EerNisse
gave a paper at the Frequency Control Symposium
on it at the time. Kusters followed up a year
later with experimental data. I am not aware of
any controversy about these two guys being the
inventors, and I have attended many FCS's. I
don't know how you prove to the Wiki police that
there is no paper predating EerNisse's paper.
Maybe there is a patent on it.
UFFC has some excellent resources on the web which does not require you
to be a member to use:
http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/teaching.asp
If you go for "Doubly Rotated Thickness Mode Plate Vibrators" by Arthur
Ballato (one of several usual suspects)
http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/teaching/pdf/Ballato.pdf
On page 16 you find that both of them get's referenced for the SC-cut,
but with years being reversed from what has been given in this thread.
Regardless, there it is. Online. For free. Take it and run with it Jim!
Please make liberal use of that UFFC teaching resource.
As I recall the Wikipedia stuff, they prefer free web-references over
others, but it's not completely ruled out to use sources not available
on those terms. It just makes it harder to check when they can't read it
widely.
Cheers,
Magnus
Useful: I have found other papers on the Kalman filter applied to clock
estimation. Thank you, Magnus.
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:58 AM, Magnus Danielson <
magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
On 09/12/2012 12:00 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
There is plenty of documentation at the IEEE web
site in the UFFC society's section. EerNisse
gave a paper at the Frequency Control Symposium
on it at the time. Kusters followed up a year
later with experimental data. I am not aware of
any controversy about these two guys being the
inventors, and I have attended many FCS's. I
don't know how you prove to the Wiki police that
there is no paper predating EerNisse's paper.
Maybe there is a patent on it.
UFFC has some excellent resources on the web which does not require you to
be a member to use:
http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/teaching.asp
If you go for "Doubly Rotated Thickness Mode Plate Vibrators" by Arthur
Ballato (one of several usual suspects)
http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/teaching/pdf/Ballato.pdf
On page 16 you find that both of them get's referenced for the SC-cut, but
with years being reversed from what has been given in this thread.
Regardless, there it is. Online. For free. Take it and run with it Jim!
Please make liberal use of that UFFC teaching resource.
As I recall the Wikipedia stuff, they prefer free web-references over
others, but it's not completely ruled out to use sources not available on
those terms. It just makes it harder to check when they can't read it
widely.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 9/11/12 3:58 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
On 09/12/2012 12:00 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
There is plenty of documentation at the IEEE web
site in the UFFC society's section. EerNisse
gave a paper at the Frequency Control Symposium
on it at the time. Kusters followed up a year
later with experimental data. I am not aware of
any controversy about these two guys being the
inventors, and I have attended many FCS's. I
don't know how you prove to the Wiki police that
there is no paper predating EerNisse's paper.
Maybe there is a patent on it.
UFFC has some excellent resources on the web which does not require you
to be a member to use:
http://www.ieee-uffc.org/frequency_control/teaching.asp
Kusters died this March.. in his "in memoriam" thing, they mention this
1981 Ultransonics Symposium
John A. Kusters, "The SC CUT CRYSTAL - AN OVERVIEW", pp 402-409
Has a bunch of references.. TS theory in 74, TTC experimental
confirmation in 75, SC (stress compensated) theory in 75, actual
experimental evidence in 78