Redundancy (was Selen or Kadey Krogen)
Hi Scott,
Your thoughtful post came at a time when I was getting rid of redundancy;
hence mine! So you might guess I respectfully disagree on the need for
redundancy, which boat builders have taken to preach to owners so as to maximize
their profits. Modern electronics and machinery are pretty bulletproof; aside
from a close or direct lightning strike there's no need for duplicate
electronics, IMHO. We are seeing more and more people who will not leave port because
the wind instruments are inoperable or the AIS isn't working. How did we
ever get along before we had all these wonderful gadgets? If one cannot tell how
hard and from what direction the wind blows without an instrument, then one
should stay ashore. We know many circumnavigators, some of whom have done it
more than once, and they don't have all this redundancy which is often seen
on coastal boats. Spares, sure, but not complete systems.
Of course there's a high "gee whiz" factor in having lots of lights and
knobs and switches, and if one has the wherewithal and the desire, by all means
they should have their bells and whistles.
I just uninstalled our 2nd VHF and wired the AIS direct to the antenna,
eliminating the splitter. Why? Because using 2 VHFs (one on 16 and one on 13)
has never worked well in practice - feedback and forgetting to turn the other
one back up - I find it much simpler to use one. I will keep the 2nd VHF
aboard as a spare and sell the splitter once we get back to the States.
Regards,
John
"Seahorse"
c. The boat is light on current, redundant electronics. I'd duplicate a
source of chartplotting, radios and autopilot for a cruise of the length
your considering.
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John, as a guy who believes in redundancy such as paper
charts, dividers, parallels etc and yes computers I respectfully disagree.
My reasons are simple, there are NO bullet proof systems. Keep it simple but
redundant! God Bless - Ross 10&2
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Truelove39@aol.com wrote:
Hi Scott,
Your thoughtful post came at a time when I was getting rid of redundancy;
hence mine! So you might guess I respectfully disagree on the need for
redundancy, which boat builders have taken to preach to owners so as to
maximize
their profits. Modern electronics and machinery are pretty bulletproof;
aside
from a close or direct lightning strike there's no need for duplicate
electronics, IMHO. We are seeing more and more people who will not leave
port because
the wind instruments are inoperable or the AIS isn't working. How did we
ever get along before we had all these wonderful gadgets? If one cannot
tell how
hard and from what direction the wind blows without an instrument, then
one
should stay ashore. We know many circumnavigators, some of whom have done
it
more than once, and they don't have all this redundancy which is often
seen
on coastal boats. Spares, sure, but not complete systems.
Of course there's a high "gee whiz" factor in having lots of lights and
knobs and switches, and if one has the wherewithal and the desire, by all
means
they should have their bells and whistles.
I just uninstalled our 2nd VHF and wired the AIS direct to the antenna,
eliminating the splitter. Why? Because using 2 VHFs (one on 16 and one on
13)
has never worked well in practice - feedback and forgetting to turn the
other
one back up - I find it much simpler to use one. I will keep the 2nd VHF
aboard as a spare and sell the splitter once we get back to the States.
Regards,
John
"Seahorse"
c. The boat is light on current, redundant electronics. I'd duplicate
a
source of chartplotting, radios and autopilot for a cruise of the length
your considering.
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(
http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
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Hi John, I respect your opinion, but have my reasons for redundancy.
A. I believe paper charts are a thing of the past. There will be no paper
charts (perhaps a cruising guide or maptech chartkit) on my boats. I would
not have the perspective without having redundant chartplotters
B. 50% of my rational for redundancy was associated with the distances we
were going. I'd rather buy that PC chartplotter than pay $1,000 in duty to
have a failed Furuno chartplotter FedEXed to me in Panama.
C. Redundancy means you don't stop going if something breaks, that's why
they are redundant.
D. Electronics are so cheap now it's not like your spending a fortune on
the basics.
E. My bilge has 3 pumps. I like that!
Those that don't leave the dock have other reasons, the electronics are
simply an excuse. When we were voyaging at night amongst coastal islands,
reefs and rocks, I felt it was a requirement to have two, completely
independent and autonomous systems telling me where I am, where I'm going
and what the charts think are in front of me. I also had the ability to
dedicate one system to RADAR and the other to chartplotting, something I did
more and more frequently as we traveled. I know many, many Nordhavn owners
that operate their two radars on different scales, one at 3 or 6 miles and
one at 1 or less. This is really, really nice when your off the coast of
Mexico with all the pangas fishing at night.
Finally the Autopilot. A piece of advice I got from the PUP list was to
install a redundant AP because if my AP failed while we were in the open
ocean we would gladly write the check after three days of hand steering. As
it turned out, that advice was so valuable, as we didn't know at the time my
wife would suffer as much from seasickness as she did. As it was I was on
watch 95% of the time. If we would have had to hand steer and I had been in
the open ocean, ug, the thought is enough to make me sick. So, for $3,000
to add the second AP was a no brainer. It also solved a major issue with my
boat. By installing an AP that was handheld, I now no longer had to stand
at the wheel. So the lack of a dedicated helm seat became a non issue. I'd
say we did about 80% of the ICW under AP. That was a pleasant surprise for
me.
In summary, for me and our safety, as a husband and wife crew, I added the
things I felt were required to make the voyage as safe as I could. In
hindsight, about the only thing I would rethink would be the FLIR camera. I
think I would opt for a much less expensive low light camera. Every other
option was spot on!
Scott E. Bulger
(425)313-5922, home
(425)922-1850, cell
I second Scott's point... assuming that the GPS constellation is
working (and without it, I'm not sure anything in this country would
work anymore) I have inexpensive electronic redundancies that use
different power sources and different sensors. I even have a little
GPS widget that I can stick in a window and run into my notebook,
which is already my third-level backup.
I use PC-based Coastal Explorer as my primary, with a ruggedized,
marinized computer that in two years of use has never hiccuped.
(Getting a Windows PC to do that requires a different set of skills).
I use a pair of Furuno NavNet2 as my secondaries (which always run in
parallel to primary to give me two views of the world), and notebook-
based third level that runs both Coastal Explorer and Nobeltec that
doesn't depend on the boat electronics. If all that goes out for some
reason, I have a Garmin handheld GPS plotter on the bridge with all
the charts for areas I'm going in, and another one in my ditch bag
(that's in a metallized, waterproof bag) and a third mounted in my dink.
I do carry charts for areas I cruise, often just the large scale ones,
and I have a good old-fashioned compass that's been competently swung.
I know enough about DR to get back to land, if not necessarily with
great precision, and have the required plotting tools. I still like to
ponder over charts as I contemplate where I'm going next.
Second, some electronics gear is very reliable. Furuno (although not
the new NavNet3D stuff) is great. Buy gear that has a good rep and has
been on the market for three or more years without any major changes.
NavNet2 was the answer for me. It just works.
Can't agree more on AP comment by Scott. Two completely independent
systems. Hand-steering most trawlers in a decent seaway is extremely
tiring, and I doubt even a couple who could share 50:50 could last
more than a couple of days. You'd also have to steer to the waves, not
the course you wanted, at least on most boats.
John
On Feb 20, 2009, at 7:54 AM, Scott E. Bulger wrote:
Hi John, I respect your opinion, but have my reasons for redundancy.
A. I believe paper charts are a thing of the past. There will be
no paper
charts (perhaps a cruising guide or maptech chartkit) on my boats.
I would
not have the perspective without having redundant chartplotters
B. 50% of my rational for redundancy was associated with the
distances we
were going. I'd rather buy that PC chartplotter than pay $1,000 in
duty to
have a failed Furuno chartplotter FedEXed to me in Panama.
C. Redundancy means you don't stop going if something breaks,
that's why
they are redundant.
D. Electronics are so cheap now it's not like your spending a
fortune on
the basics.
E. My bilge has 3 pumps. I like that!
Those that don't leave the dock have other reasons, the electronics
are
simply an excuse. When we were voyaging at night amongst coastal
islands,
reefs and rocks, I felt it was a requirement to have two, completely
independent and autonomous systems telling me where I am, where I'm
going
and what the charts think are in front of me. I also had the
ability to
dedicate one system to RADAR and the other to chartplotting,
something I did
more and more frequently as we traveled. I know many, many Nordhavn
owners
that operate their two radars on different scales, one at 3 or 6
miles and
one at 1 or less. This is really, really nice when your off the
coast of
Mexico with all the pangas fishing at night.
Finally the Autopilot. A piece of advice I got from the PUP list
was to
install a redundant AP because if my AP failed while we were in the
open
ocean we would gladly write the check after three days of hand
steering. As
it turned out, that advice was so valuable, as we didn't know at the
time my
wife would suffer as much from seasickness as she did. As it was I
was on
watch 95% of the time. If we would have had to hand steer and I had
been in
the open ocean, ug, the thought is enough to make me sick. So, for
$3,000
to add the second AP was a no brainer. It also solved a major issue
with my
boat. By installing an AP that was handheld, I now no longer had to
stand
at the wheel. So the lack of a dedicated helm seat became a non
issue. I'd
say we did about 80% of the ICW under AP. That was a pleasant
surprise for
me.
In summary, for me and our safety, as a husband and wife crew, I
added the
things I felt were required to make the voyage as safe as I could. In
hindsight, about the only thing I would rethink would be the FLIR
camera. I
think I would opt for a much less expensive low light camera. Every
other
option was spot on!
Scott E. Bulger
(425)313-5922, home
(425)922-1850, cell
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Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
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One of the advantages of redundant electronics is that you CAN go out
when a number of things are broken, as others are still working.
I ran around all last summer with one of my sounders out and didn't
fret. I just waited until it was convenient to fix it.
If that had been my only sounder, I would have stayed in port to fix it.
Same would go for one GPS, one Radar, one chartplotter.... likehood of
dual failures in a given time period is low.
The drawback is that it does cost more to buy and maintain more
equipment. But done right, you have few days where your travels are
dictated by equipment failures.
Of course, I wouldn't start a trip with my main engine out (and
running on wing only), so there are limits to this.
John
On Feb 20, 2009, at 3:51 AM, Truelove39@aol.com wrote:
Hi Scott,
Your thoughtful post came at a time when I was getting rid of
redundancy;
hence mine! So you might guess I respectfully disagree on the need
for
redundancy, which boat builders have taken to preach to owners so
as to maximize
their profits. Modern electronics and machinery are pretty
bulletproof; aside
from a close or direct lightning strike there's no need for duplicate
electronics, IMHO. We are seeing more and more people who will not
leave port because
the wind instruments are inoperable or the AIS isn't working. How
did we
ever get along before we had all these wonderful gadgets? If one
cannot tell how
hard and from what direction the wind blows without an instrument,
then one
should stay ashore. We know many circumnavigators, some of whom
have done it
more than once, and they don't have all this redundancy which is
often seen
on coastal boats. Spares, sure, but not complete systems.
Of course there's a high "gee whiz" factor in having lots of lights
and
knobs and switches, and if one has the wherewithal and the desire,
by all means
they should have their bells and whistles.
I just uninstalled our 2nd VHF and wired the AIS direct to the
antenna,
eliminating the splitter. Why? Because using 2 VHFs (one on 16 and
one on 13)
has never worked well in practice - feedback and forgetting to turn
the other
one back up - I find it much simpler to use one. I will keep the
2nd VHF
aboard as a spare and sell the splitter once we get back to the
States.
Regards,
John
"Seahorse"
c. The boat is light on current, redundant electronics. I'd
duplicate a
source of chartplotting, radios and autopilot for a cruise of the
length
your considering.
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just
2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
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UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
Scott, John would chuckle if he saw all the redundancy I have including
two separate electronic charting programs with on board computers and laptop
back-up and the list goes on but having a drawer full of paper charts always
makes me feel a bit easier even though I haven't open the drawer much over
these past few years. It also gives the grandkids something to work with
instead of messing with the computers when I'm off watch. God Bless - Ross
10&2, (previous owner of the 2nd vhf that John tossed into the spare parts
bin. )
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Scott E. Bulger scottebulger@gmail.comwrote:
Hi John, I respect your opinion, but have my reasons for redundancy.
A. I believe paper charts are a thing of the past. There will be no
paper
charts (perhaps a cruising guide or maptech chartkit) on my boats. I would
not have the perspective without having redundant chartplotters
B. 50% of my rational for redundancy was associated with the distances we
were going. I'd rather buy that PC chartplotter than pay $1,000 in duty to
have a failed Furuno chartplotter FedEXed to me in Panama.
C. Redundancy means you don't stop going if something breaks, that's why
they are redundant.
D. Electronics are so cheap now it's not like your spending a fortune on
the basics.
E. My bilge has 3 pumps. I like that!
Those that don't leave the dock have other reasons, the electronics are
simply an excuse. When we were voyaging at night amongst coastal islands,
reefs and rocks, I felt it was a requirement to have two, completely
independent and autonomous systems telling me where I am, where I'm going
and what the charts think are in front of me. I also had the ability to
dedicate one system to RADAR and the other to chartplotting, something I
did
more and more frequently as we traveled. I know many, many Nordhavn owners
that operate their two radars on different scales, one at 3 or 6 miles and
one at 1 or less. This is really, really nice when your off the coast of
Mexico with all the pangas fishing at night.
Finally the Autopilot. A piece of advice I got from the PUP list was to
install a redundant AP because if my AP failed while we were in the open
ocean we would gladly write the check after three days of hand steering.
As
it turned out, that advice was so valuable, as we didn't know at the time
my
wife would suffer as much from seasickness as she did. As it was I was on
watch 95% of the time. If we would have had to hand steer and I had been
in
the open ocean, ug, the thought is enough to make me sick. So, for $3,000
to add the second AP was a no brainer. It also solved a major issue with
my
boat. By installing an AP that was handheld, I now no longer had to stand
at the wheel. So the lack of a dedicated helm seat became a non issue.
I'd
say we did about 80% of the ICW under AP. That was a pleasant surprise for
me.
In summary, for me and our safety, as a husband and wife crew, I added the
things I felt were required to make the voyage as safe as I could. In
hindsight, about the only thing I would rethink would be the FLIR camera.
I
think I would opt for a much less expensive low light camera. Every other
option was spot on!
Scott E. Bulger
(425)313-5922, home
(425)922-1850, cell
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.