Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and the FCC
If the FCC weren't a government entity they would be called whores.
This reminds me of the time several years ago when it was taking a
year or more to get a grant for a 800 MHz license. The FCC granted
thousands, yes thousands of requests from the company that would
become Nextel all in one day. Quite often granting them a license for
a frequency that was already licensed at the same location by someone
else. All who objected were told to shut up and go away. Some years
later when interference to public safety systems by Nextel got bad
enough, the FCC made Nextel relocate those systems to different
frequencies less prone to interference. But, they granted them access
to the adjacent 900 MHz spectrum without having to file paperwork.
When the first plane crashes because of Lightsquared interference, I
hope the political s**t storm drowns those clowns.
Hi
Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles.
40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles.
Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles.
On that basis, there's not going to be anywhere in the US that you can get
GPS to fly a plane. Jamming detected = could be a problem = you can't trust
it.
I suspect that there indeed will be remote parts of Alaska or the like that
you will indeed still have un-jammed coverage in a plane.
Now for the "best case":
5.6 miles loss of fix = just under 100 square miles. That's 3.94 million
square miles of jamming. That's still greater than the area of the US. I'm
sure we'll have some left over to jam Canada and Mexico as well. Again,
there will be patches where you can get a fix, but they will be the
exception rather than the rule.
File an IFR flight plan based on any of this - no way. Insure an airline
that does that - no way. Run an airline based on "VFR only" not going to
happen. Is everything GPS based - no, but there's a lot of the country where
it is.
Not at all clear how you will keep aviation going under those conditions
unless Lightsquared replaces all their gear with type accepted
replacements. Where do I sign up for my free gps?
Let's suppose they have big pockets and do all that.
At the consumer level, you have 128 thousand square miles with urban canyon
issues. Good bet that's every place with an urban canyon in the country.
Essentially cross off GPS in every large city.
Out here in the sticks, things are a little better. Only a bit over 17
thousand square miles lost. Except ... do you have any hills or mountains
near you? Back to the paragraph above if you live anywhere other than
western Kansas.
Why are they setting this up - to get internet to people. Where are the
transmitters going - where people live. The consumer numbers may not sound
as bad, but there's a lot of country that is pretty empty. Look at any cell
coverage map to get a good idea how much. You still nuke a lot of voters
with "only" 17 thousand square miles. Not to mention fire, police, EMS, and
the DHL guy.
Then you have the federal law about 911 tracking on cell phones. How does
that work - GPS. Under what conditions - worse than an urban canyon (no sky
at all). You at least have the urban canyon area to deal with and likely
worse. Any bet your cell phone GPS is as RF rugged as the one in your car?
I'm not taking that bet. Bop up the coverage area a bit more.
So average urban canyon with airborne and what do you get - just a bit over
a half million square miles. My guess is that's the whole area of the
country that has a population dimensioned in multiple people per square
mile.
So we have:
- Multiple Airplanes running into mountains
- Many houses burning to the ground
- Lots of 911 calls getting miss directed and people dying as a result
- Joe six pack getting lost on the way to the beer store
All could be what nukes this. I'm betting on number 4 ...
Bob
Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles.
40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles.
Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles.
By the same logic, all of the office space in New York could not fit
in New York. But it does because they stack it 20 or 100 floors one
on top of the other.
I suspect the areas will overlap with very dense coverage in urban
areas. Perhaps in some places there is 50 or 100 channels of coverage
and in others one or even zero.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Go back to my orig post the FCC has given the go ahead .. to late ?
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles.
40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles.
Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles.
On that basis, there's not going to be anywhere in the US that you can get
GPS to fly a plane. Jamming detected = could be a problem = you can't trust
it.
I suspect that there indeed will be remote parts of Alaska or the like that
you will indeed still have un-jammed coverage in a plane.
Now for the "best case":
5.6 miles loss of fix = just under 100 square miles. That's 3.94 million
square miles of jamming. That's still greater than the area of the US. I'm
sure we'll have some left over to jam Canada and Mexico as well. Again,
there will be patches where you can get a fix, but they will be the
exception rather than the rule.
File an IFR flight plan based on any of this - no way. Insure an airline
that does that - no way. Run an airline based on "VFR only" not going to
happen. Is everything GPS based - no, but there's a lot of the country where
it is.
Not at all clear how you will keep aviation going under those conditions
unless Lightsquared replaces all their gear with type accepted
replacements. Where do I sign up for my free gps?
Let's suppose they have big pockets and do all that.
At the consumer level, you have 128 thousand square miles with urban canyon
issues. Good bet that's every place with an urban canyon in the country.
Essentially cross off GPS in every large city.
Out here in the sticks, things are a little better. Only a bit over 17
thousand square miles lost. Except ... do you have any hills or mountains
near you? Back to the paragraph above if you live anywhere other than
western Kansas.
Why are they setting this up - to get internet to people. Where are the
transmitters going - where people live. The consumer numbers may not sound
as bad, but there's a lot of country that is pretty empty. Look at any cell
coverage map to get a good idea how much. You still nuke a lot of voters
with "only" 17 thousand square miles. Not to mention fire, police, EMS, and
the DHL guy.
Then you have the federal law about 911 tracking on cell phones. How does
that work - GPS. Under what conditions - worse than an urban canyon (no sky
at all). You at least have the urban canyon area to deal with and likely
worse. Any bet your cell phone GPS is as RF rugged as the one in your car?
I'm not taking that bet. Bop up the coverage area a bit more.
So average urban canyon with airborne and what do you get - just a bit over
a half million square miles. My guess is that's the whole area of the
country that has a population dimensioned in multiple people per square
mile.
So we have:
- Multiple Airplanes running into mountains
- Many houses burning to the ground
- Lots of 911 calls getting miss directed and people dying as a result
- Joe six pack getting lost on the way to the beer store
All could be what nukes this. I'm betting on number 4 ...
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
I'm sure their deployment is indeed population driven. You will still likely
be fine over parts of Alaska and Montana. Over the high density traffic
areas on the coasts - unlikely.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:09 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles.
40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles.
Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles.
By the same logic, all of the office space in New York could not fit
in New York. But it does because they stack it 20 or 100 floors one
on top of the other.
I suspect the areas will overlap with very dense coverage in urban
areas. Perhaps in some places there is 50 or 100 channels of coverage
and in others one or even zero.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
There's no decision that they take that they can't reverse. That goes double
for something like this that was done pretty quickly.
My guess is that they have a limited rather than a full approval at this
point. From the article "proceed with ancillary terrestrial component
operations" does not sound like a full license.
If you do a little Google work on the topic, there are a lot of different
services and outfits impacted by this (not just GPS). None of them are happy
and all of them are likely on the phone to their favorite legislator and /
or lawyers.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Pete Lancashire
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:13 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Go back to my orig post the FCC has given the go ahead .. to late ?
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles.
40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles.
Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles.
On that basis, there's not going to be anywhere in the US that you can
get
GPS to fly a plane. Jamming detected = could be a problem = you can't
trust
it.
I suspect that there indeed will be remote parts of Alaska or the like
that
you will indeed still have un-jammed coverage in a plane.
Now for the "best case":
5.6 miles loss of fix = just under 100 square miles. That's 3.94 million
square miles of jamming. That's still greater than the area of the US. I'm
sure we'll have some left over to jam Canada and Mexico as well. Again,
there will be patches where you can get a fix, but they will be the
exception rather than the rule.
File an IFR flight plan based on any of this - no way. Insure an airline
that does that - no way. Run an airline based on "VFR only" not going to
happen. Is everything GPS based - no, but there's a lot of the country
where
it is.
Not at all clear how you will keep aviation going under those conditions
unless Lightsquared replaces all their gear with type accepted
replacements. Where do I sign up for my free gps?
Let's suppose they have big pockets and do all that.
At the consumer level, you have 128 thousand square miles with urban
canyon
issues. Good bet that's every place with an urban canyon in the country.
Essentially cross off GPS in every large city.
Out here in the sticks, things are a little better. Only a bit over 17
thousand square miles lost. Except ... do you have any hills or mountains
near you? Back to the paragraph above if you live anywhere other than
western Kansas.
Why are they setting this up - to get internet to people. Where are the
transmitters going - where people live. The consumer numbers may not sound
as bad, but there's a lot of country that is pretty empty. Look at any
cell
coverage map to get a good idea how much. You still nuke a lot of voters
with "only" 17 thousand square miles. Not to mention fire, police, EMS,
and
the DHL guy.
Then you have the federal law about 911 tracking on cell phones. How does
that work - GPS. Under what conditions - worse than an urban canyon (no
sky
at all). You at least have the urban canyon area to deal with and likely
worse. Any bet your cell phone GPS is as RF rugged as the one in your car?
I'm not taking that bet. Bop up the coverage area a bit more.
So average urban canyon with airborne and what do you get - just a bit
over
a half million square miles. My guess is that's the whole area of the
country that has a population dimensioned in multiple people per square
mile.
So we have:
- Multiple Airplanes running into mountains
- Many houses burning to the ground
- Lots of 911 calls getting miss directed and people dying as a result
- Joe six pack getting lost on the way to the beer store
All could be what nukes this. I'm betting on number 4 ...
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
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and follow the instructions there.
Wonder if the clients of this network reduce power as cell phones do to increase
battery life and reduce interference or they will use a dish on the fixed
clients, not that would help with interference from the sat. The web site reads
like the sat will distribute the internet signal direct to the clients:
http://www.lightsquared.com/what-we-do/technology/
Stanley
----- Original Message ----
From: Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wed, February 2, 2011 12:09:07 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
Let's see, a 13 mile circle is pi r squared = ~ 530 square miles.
40,000 times 530 is ~ 21 million square miles.
Wikipedia tells me that the area of the US is 3.79 million square miles.
By the same logic, all of the office space in New York could not fit
in New York. But it does because they stack it 20 or 100 floors one
on top of the other.
I suspect the areas will overlap with very dense coverage in urban
areas. Perhaps in some places there is 50 or 100 channels of coverage
and in others one or even zero.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Stanley Reynolds
stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com wrote:
The web site reads
like the sat will distribute the internet signal direct to the clients:
People will hate this service. Going up to geo-sync adds a noticeable
and annoying lag do unavoidable speed of light round trip time of
flight. This is one reason the phone companies have been investing in
fiber for long haul.
=====
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
by then those in the FCC who ok'ed this will be working as a lobbyist
-pete
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 7:32 AM, John Green wpxs472@gmail.com wrote:
If the FCC weren't a government entity they would be called whores.
This reminds me of the time several years ago when it was taking a
year or more to get a grant for a 800 MHz license. The FCC granted
thousands, yes thousands of requests from the company that would
become Nextel all in one day. Quite often granting them a license for
a frequency that was already licensed at the same location by someone
else. All who objected were told to shut up and go away. Some years
later when interference to public safety systems by Nextel got bad
enough, the FCC made Nextel relocate those systems to different
frequencies less prone to interference. But, they granted them access
to the adjacent 900 MHz spectrum without having to file paperwork.
When the first plane crashes because of Lightsquared interference, I
hope the political s**t storm drowns those clowns.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
It certainly will not be "fast" by any standard.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Albertson
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:45 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Stanley Reynolds
stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com wrote:
The web site reads
like the sat will distribute the internet signal direct to the clients:
People will hate this service. Going up to geo-sync adds a noticeable
and annoying lag do unavoidable speed of light round trip time of
flight. This is one reason the phone companies have been investing in
fiber for long haul.
=====
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Stanley wrote:
Wonder if the clients of this network reduce power as cell phones do
to increase battery life and reduce interference or they will use a
dish on the fixed clients, not that would help with interference
from the sat. The web site reads like the sat will distribute the
internet signal direct to the clients
The issue is not signals from satellites, which are very
weak. Satellite operators serving mobile and portable devices (which
generally cannot employ high-gain, narrow-beamwidth antennas like the
dish antennas used for stationary ("fixed," in FCC parlance)
satellite services such as direct-to-home television reception) have
found that there are significant coverage "holes" and have asked the
FCC to allow them to use an "ancillary terrestrial component" ("ATC")
-- i.e., base transcievers on towers, like cellular base stations --
to cover the holes. The ATC rules, as they are currently written,
require the ATC component to be ancillary to and integrated with a
robust satellite system that is available to all system users (the
"integrated service" rule).
Even with ATC, the Mobile Satellite Service ("MSS") has never really
caught on, so it represents a fair chunk of spectrum getting very
little use. Some MSS providers seek to create primarily-terrestrial
systems with an essentially vestigial satellite component. The FCC
(in its National Broadband Plan -- see
http://www.broadband.gov/plan/) has started to move toward allowing
terrestrial-only services to operate on a co-primary basis with the
MSS on MSS spectrum, which has emboldened MSS
licensees. Lightsquared, which is an MSS licensee, petitioned for a
conditional waiver of the "integrated service" rule, which the FCC granted:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-11-133A1.pdf
One of the conditions imposed by the FCC was "the creation of a
process to address interference concerns regarding GPS and, further,
that this process must be completed to the Commission's satisfaction
before LightSquared commences offering commercial service, pursuant
to the approval of its request, on its L-Band MSS frequencies." This
process is expected to be completed within 90 days. See paragraphs
39-43 of the FCC order linked above.
So: The FCC seems determined to allow the expanded use of L-band MSS
frequencies for terrestrial use to deliver mobile broadband services,
and Lightsquared is just one company looking to benefit. The primary
threat to GPS (GPS L1 is 1575.42 GHz) is from terrestrial base
stations serving mobile devices and operating up to 1.559 GHz,
although millions of mobile handsets operating between 1.6265 and
1.6605 GHz may also be a worry.
The FCC has made way more than its share of boneheaded technical
decisions over the decades (to name just the most visible tip of the
iceberg: NTSC, multiplexed FM stereo, NRSC preemphasis of AM signals,
AM stereo, forcing the switch to digital television, choice of
ATSC/8VSB as the digital television standard, choice of IBOC as the
AM/FM digital radio standard, etc., etc. -- and that's just in the
broadcast area). This time, it's a mad, desperate dash to find 500
MHz of spectrum usable for mobile broadband in the next 5 years.
In my view, this technical tone-deafness at the FCC persists because
there has been no engineering expertise or background at the
Commission(er) level since ... well, I'm not sure there ever was, but
perhaps in the 1930s-'40s. The FCC staff is supposed to provide
engineering support, but Commissioners often do not listen to the
staff as carefully as they should and sometimes the staff gets it
wrong. IMO, the 5-person Commission should always include at least
one engineer and one economist so that at least in theory it has
enough expertise to do a reality check on proposals at the Commission level.
Thus, the truth (at least as I see it) is much more complicated than
a simplistic conspiracy theory -- but then, it always is.
Best regards,
Charles
Sorry, GPS L1 is, of course, 1575.42 MHz (or 1.57542 GHz).
Charles
Stanley wrote:
Wonder if the clients of this network reduce power as cell phones
do to increase battery life and reduce interference or they will
use a dish on the fixed clients, not that would help with
interference from the sat. The web site reads like the sat will
distribute the internet signal direct to the clients
The issue is not signals from satellites, which are very
weak. Satellite operators serving mobile and portable devices
(which generally cannot employ high-gain, narrow-beamwidth antennas
like the dish antennas used for stationary ("fixed," in FCC
parlance) satellite services such as direct-to-home television
reception) have found that there are significant coverage "holes"
and have asked the FCC to allow them to use an "ancillary
terrestrial component" ("ATC") -- i.e., base transcievers on towers,
like cellular base stations -- to cover the holes. The ATC rules,
as they are currently written, require the ATC component to be
ancillary to and integrated with a robust satellite system that is
available to all system users (the "integrated service" rule).
Even with ATC, the Mobile Satellite Service ("MSS") has never really
caught on, so it represents a fair chunk of spectrum getting very
little use. Some MSS providers seek to create primarily-terrestrial
systems with an essentially vestigial satellite component. The FCC
(in its National Broadband Plan -- see
http://www.broadband.gov/plan/) has started to move toward allowing
terrestrial-only services to operate on a co-primary basis with the
MSS on MSS spectrum, which has emboldened MSS
licensees. Lightsquared, which is an MSS licensee, petitioned for a
conditional waiver of the "integrated service" rule, which the FCC granted:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-11-133A1.pdf
One of the conditions imposed by the FCC was "the creation of a
process to address interference concerns regarding GPS and, further,
that this process must be completed to the Commission's satisfaction
before LightSquared commences offering commercial service, pursuant
to the approval of its request, on its L-Band MSS
frequencies." This process is expected to be completed within 90
days. See paragraphs 39-43 of the FCC order linked above.
So: The FCC seems determined to allow the expanded use of L-band
MSS frequencies for terrestrial use to deliver mobile broadband
services, and Lightsquared is just one company looking to
benefit. The primary threat to GPS (GPS L1 is 1575.42 GHz) is from
terrestrial base stations serving mobile devices and operating up to
1.559 GHz, although millions of mobile handsets operating between
1.6265 and 1.6605 GHz may also be a worry.
The FCC has made way more than its share of boneheaded technical
decisions over the decades (to name just the most visible tip of the
iceberg: NTSC, multiplexed FM stereo, NRSC preemphasis of AM
signals, AM stereo, forcing the switch to digital television, choice
of ATSC/8VSB as the digital television standard, choice of IBOC as
the AM/FM digital radio standard, etc., etc. -- and that's just in
the broadcast area). This time, it's a mad, desperate dash to find
500 MHz of spectrum usable for mobile broadband in the next 5 years.
In my view, this technical tone-deafness at the FCC persists because
there has been no engineering expertise or background at the
Commission(er) level since ... well, I'm not sure there ever was,
but perhaps in the 1930s-'40s. The FCC staff is supposed to provide
engineering support, but Commissioners often do not listen to the
staff as carefully as they should and sometimes the staff gets it
wrong. IMO, the 5-person Commission should always include at least
one engineer and one economist so that at least in theory it has
enough expertise to do a reality check on proposals at the Commission level.
Thus, the truth (at least as I see it) is much more complicated than
a simplistic conspiracy theory -- but then, it always is.
Best regards,
Charles
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
In my view, this technical tone-deafness at the FCC persists because there
has been no engineering expertise or background at the Commission(er) level
since ... well, I'm not sure there ever was, but perhaps in the 1930s-'40s.
The FCC staff is supposed to provide engineering support, but Commissioners
often do not listen to the staff as carefully as they should and sometimes
the staff gets it wrong. IMO, the 5-person Commission should always include
at least one engineer and one economist so that at least in theory it has
enough expertise to do a reality check on proposals at the Commission level.
The NTIA and technical folks I've worked with @ the FCC over the years
have been fantastic. It's the translation of their recommendations to
the Commissioner level where it gets tricky. Politics enters the
equation and makes things icky to us engineering types. The fact that
the commissioners have 5 year terms (unless, of course, they quit) and
often have odd overlap with any political entities in charge of the
white house or congress make it even ickier. Add in the position of
chairman of the commission and the effect of that over the other
Commissioners and their fundamentally independent nature from each
other, and the ickiness factor starts to go non linear.