Mark, Welcome to rehabbers' world where we're collecting poop all the time for diagnostic purposes, not to mention, cleaning it up all the time! This discussion is quite fascinating. My experience with the species is very limited (CA 18 years ago). It'll be interesting to see what evolves from this analysis. Meredith Sampson Old Greenwich -- "Mark Szantyr" <birddog55@Charter.net> wrote: Thanks Clay. DNA might help. It seems that Baltimore Oriole is more closely related to Hooded Oriole and Bullock's is more closely related to Black-vented Oriole ( I think I have this right). If we could get a feather or two, especially if it had fleash attached or if we could get a good amount of its poop ( yeah, I know....) we might be able to do something. Collecting poop...how low have I sunk!!!!! Mark Mark S.Szantyr 80 Bicknell Road Apt. 9 Ashford, CT 06278 USA Birddog55@Charter.net 860-487-9766 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clay Taylor" <ctaylor@att.net> To: "Mark Szantyr" <birddog55@Charter.net>; <ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 12:09 AM Subject: Re: [CT Birds] The oriole in Canaan > Mark - > > Well done! This is where we all can make contributions to avian > knowledge - be on the lookout for the "weird stuff", and document it > however possible. > > On the subject of DNA, if the oriole is observed to shed a feather while > in the yard, would analysis of its DNA be enough of a marker to further > define this bird? In other words, are Bullock's and Baltimore separated > enough to determine an intergrade? > > The Junkin Warbler from NY had its DNA analyzed from a feather collected > after the bird was caught in a mist net, and the bird's parentage was > determined by the Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology. > > Clay Taylor > Moodus, CT > ctaylor@att.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Szantyr" <birddog55@Charter.net> > To: <ctbirds@lists.ctbirding.org> > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 11:45 PM > Subject: [CT Birds] The oriole in Canaan > > >>I want to begin by saying that the homeowners are incredibly wonderful in >> how they have allowed access to this great bird and how hospitable they >> have >> been to us all. >> >> Oriole identification is tricky, especially in sub-adult plumage. I saw >> this bird, my third Bullock's type in CT, on Sunday and was able to get >> some >> excellent images. Tom Sayers was there with me and asked what I thought. >> I >> said that it looks pretty much like a Bullock's Oriole but seemed more >> orange than the other young male I have seen. Upon getting home, I >> checked >> my photos and notes against all the literature I had and against images >> on >> the web as well as against the images I had of previous Bullock's from >> CT. >> A few characters stuck out as unusual to me. Confused, I defaulted to my >> standard method of ID, that is, begin with the age and sex. The bird >> appeared to be a male due to the black throat and the great amount of >> white >> in the wing. How old was it? This was harder. It looked like the bird >> showed features of an adult male ( the amount of white in the wing) and >> features of a second year male ( everything else). I checked on molt >> timing >> of this species and Baltimore Oriole and found a few characters that >> seemed >> consistent with each of the two separate molt calendars. Hmmmm! I noted >> a >> few characters that seemed inconsistent with identification as Bullock's: >> the lack of a dark post occular stripe, the extensive and rather even >> orange >> coloration, the seemingly excessive orange to the mantle, the more >> well-marked mantle, the appearance of orange feathering in the lesser >> coverts ( a Baltimore Oriole character). confused, I sent the images to >> a >> few West Coast birders who surely had more experience with this species >> than >> I did. Most of them said that it looked abnormal for Bullock's Oriole to >> them and suggested it might be a hybrid with Baltimore Oriole. Two >> thought >> that it was extensively orange but maybe in the range of Bullock's. >> Peter >> Pyle said that while more orange than normal, it was likely ok for >> Bullock's. >> >> So what am I saying? I guess I am saying that this is a very >> interesting >> bird. Several characters suggest to several knowledgeable birders that >> this >> may be a hybrid Baltimore X Bullock's but even the experts have limited >> experience with this. All the literature on this topic deals with adult >> plumaged birds. If a hybrid, it is likely a second or greater generation >> hybrid because the Bullock's characters are so strong. It is critical >> that >> all observers record their notes on this bird so that we have all the >> data >> we can muster for our continued study. There is so little known about >> hybrid Bullock's X Baltimore in this plumage that anything we can add is >> earth-shaking. >> Is it a hybrid? Only DNA and an act of God will tell us for sure. I am >> waiting for more reviews from western birders and will keep you posted as >> it >> comes in. >> >> This is not a typical second - year male Bullock's Oriole. Can you count >> it >> as one? I guess that is up to you and your list. If a hybrid, it would >> be >> much more interesting in the big picture. >> >> >> Mark >> >> Mark S.Szantyr >> 80 Bicknell Road >> Apt. 9 >> Ashford, CT 06278 >> USA >> >> Birddog55@Charter.net >> 860-487-9766 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> This list is provided by the Connecticut Ornithological Association (COA) >> for the discussion of birds and birding in Connecticut. >> For subscription information visit >> http://lists.ctbirding.org/mailman/listinfo/ctbirds_lists.ctbirding.org > > _______________________________________________ This list is provided by the Connecticut Ornithological Association (COA) for the discussion of birds and birding in Connecticut. 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