'morning, folks,

I was just on a verge of purchasing a Tek TDS1012 scope when a friend
suggested that I could save a chunk of change by buying a BitScope. Although
I've been aware of PC scopes, I never really looked into them.  The specs
look pretty good (the fact that I was looking at an entry-level Tek will
give you some idea of my needs).

Anyone have any experience with BitScope or other of the low-end PC scopes?

Thanks,

Bill

Hello Bill,

If you already have a PC with a motherboard soundcard or a accessory
soundcard (PCI), then
with appropriate software you can look at signals in the time or
frequency domains.

a google search on scope software may find some shareware.

Spectrum Lab, Spectran, etc. are also free and on a windows PC will show
the
frequency spectrum to the frequency limits of the soundcard.

Just depends what you really want to do and the complexity of your testing.

If you have to spend the money, get one of each....  and play...  HI

Stan, W1LE

On 10/31/2010 9:35 AM, William H. Fite wrote:

On 10/31/2010 02:35 PM, William H. Fite wrote:

Earlier experience with PC based boards is that their life-span is
limited due to software and hardware support reasons. Not all software
has survived from Win95 for instance. How many computers still have
ISA-bus? You run into all kinds of configuration hazzle rather than
measuring things.

So my personal experience is that it isn't as good as a free-standing
box, ready-to-go.

However, looking at BitScope they have a number of things done
differently which counteracts my comment. They have support for various
Windows AND various Linuxes. They also have the source-code, so you can
recompile it. With some effort it can be maintained, but without
reverse-engineering it. Also, the hardware interface is USB which seems
to be a fairly long-term interface. It looks like it will be around
another 10 years at least.

For many uses, I would still prefer the old oscilloscope interface if I
have one oscilloscope (I have several, ranging from 70thies up to the
90thies) but do value the possibility to interact with the scope in
various ways and more direct means to control it isn't a bad feature.

So my advice is that you need to figure out how you want to work, what
will be the best way of working. Can you lock up a computer at the
lab-bench? Do you have the screen-space to get all your data up
alongside the scope?

I would end up with both... eventually.

Cheers,
Magnus

Stan said:
Spectrum Lab, Spectran, etc. are also free and on a windows PC will show the
frequency spectrum to the frequency limits of the soundcard.

Yes, I use Spectrum Lab already but trying to make a bench scope out of it
is more trouble than it is worth.

Magnus said:
Can you lock up a computer at the lab-bench? Do you have the screen-space to
get all your data up alongside the scope?

As I think about it, the answer to both those questions is probably no.

Thanks!

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Magnus Danielson <
magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

Hi

Buying brand new or previously owned?

There's a big difference there and for home use, previously owned is the only way to go.

A "real" scope is easier to float from ground, and the controls make more sense. The knobs and switches really do help you make quick and accurate measurements. The PC scope is terrific for saving plots and post processing. The "real" scope likely will have wider bandwidth and better probes than the PC version. The PC version will indeed have a bigger display.

If all you need is sound card audio rate stuff, go with the PC version. It's essentially free. Calibration will be a bit messy, but it's a lot of bang for the buck. I'm guessing you need something a bit faster than audio.

My vote goes to the real scope. It will still be running decades after the PC version is un-usable. If you get the right one, it can be a "once a lifetime" sort of buy. The PC version is likely a "once every couple of years" sort of thing.

Bob

On Oct 31, 2010, at 9:35 AM, William H. Fite wrote:

Bob said:
...for home use, previously owned is the only way to go.

I agree (he said, looking around at the chipped and dinged stuff nearby).
That being said, both are new, the Tek because there is not a lot of saving
to be achieved from buying a used one, especially when it means giving up
the lifetime (well...ten years, at least) warranty.  The BitScope because it
is a challenge to find them on the used market from vendors one would want
to trust.  I can get a good deal on either.

Then he said:
My vote goes to the real scope. It will still be running decades after the
PC version is un-usable. If you get the right one, it can be a "once a
lifetime" sort of buy. The PC version is likely a "once every couple of
years" sort of thing.

True enough.  I think you folks have helped me come to a decision.

Thanks again

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:

Hi Bill,
It depends what you need/want. There are issues with the PC based 'scopes. Most obvious to the user is response time. It can be fustrating to have the screen change a second after the event happened! Other issues are sample rate and input voltage range. The Bitscope headlines "100MHz analog bandwidth" but you have to big a bit deeper to find "up to 40Ms/s". Seems like they are wasting most of the bandwidth if the have an anti-alising filter. This is really only usable to 20MHz single shot.
 I could not find the input sensitivity and ranges. I looked at the BitScope a while ago and decided it was overpriced at $600. I was lucky to find an HP 54645D for the same money. Unless you need the PC connnectivty and simple logic analyser (the 54645D gives both ;-), I'd look at a conventional 'scope. As you are considering a PC 'scope, have a look at the Pico Technolgy range, http://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope-specifications.html Their bandwith / sample rates make more sense. I've used their products and they work very well.

Robert G8RPI.

--- On Sun, 31/10/10, William H. Fite omniryx@gmail.com wrote:

From: William H. Fite omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: [time-nuts] A little quick advice, please
To: "PC Oscilloscope" time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 13:35

'morning, folks,

I was just on a verge of purchasing a Tek TDS1012 scope when a friend
suggested that I could save a chunk of change by buying a BitScope. Although
I've been aware of PC scopes, I never really looked into them.  The specs
look pretty good (the fact that I was looking at an entry-level Tek will
give you some idea of my needs).

Anyone have any experience with BitScope or other of the low-end PC scopes?

Thanks,

Bill

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

A couple of months ago, I bought a used Tek TDS 1002 for under $300. I've
always been very skeptical about DSOs and just love 7xxx series analog
units, but I needed something for occasional portable use.

I was pleasantly surprised. IMO, it's not an analog scope, but it does
have nice features, including an FFT function (not a real SA, but pretty
good to 100 MHz or so).

I'd look for a stand-alone unit, rather than a PC card.

(I'd love to get the interface card, but they seem to be rare.)

FWIW,

-John

===============

Robert said;
Bitscope headlines "100MHz analog bandwidth" but you have to big a bit
deeper to find "up to 40Ms/s". Seems like they are wasting most of the
bandwidth if the have an anti-alising filter. This is really only usable to
20MHz single shot.

Yes, I noticed that, too.  Almost sounds like deceptive advertising.

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Robert Atkinson robert8rpi@yahoo.co.ukwrote:

I can get a new TDS1002 for ~$700 or a TDS 1012 for a bit over $1K.  Given
that the typical eBilge price for a 1002 runs $600 or so, new seems to make
sense.

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 12:32 PM, J. Forster jfor@quik.com wrote:

I got my TDS 1002 along w/ 4 NOS probes for $280. I got mine at a flea,
but you might want to post a WTB on Tekscopes2 or TestEquipTrader on
YahooGroups.

Also, you can likely get a Tek 465B or 2xxx analog scope for <$200.

Also, try calling a few leasing companies or dealers to see if they have
anything.

Best,

-John

Sampling scopes will display repetative signals above the sampling frequency
if the repetition rate of the signals and sampling rate are not
related....there were GHz bandwidth scopes in the 60s using this method. Not
a lot of good on single shot though. PC scopes are quite good for repetative
slow signal and single shot within their sampling rate. i have a Pico Tech
50Ms/s which works well with a simple old laptop.....it requires a parallel
port so was quite cheap on that auction site we love to hate.

It is a case with ALL measuring equipment you been to know HOW it works to
interpret what it telling you.

Alan G3NYK

----- Original Message -----
From: "William H. Fite" omniryx@gmail.com
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A little quick advice, please

to

robert8rpi@yahoo.co.ukwrote:

'scopes.

the

Seems

to

connnectivty

the

/

very

specs

scopes?

https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

Well, we all get those really nice deals now and again.  I got a NIB (by
which I mean box never even opened) Spectracom 8164 for a hundred bucks...

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 1:52 PM, J. Forster jfor@quik.com wrote:

Hi Alan,

My $200 Tek 7854 mainframe with the 7S11/7T11 combo take my old scope up
high enough to look at 13-14GHz repetitive signals.  I don't think it can
take a screen shot or do much if any analysis with these plugins though but
they're still handy for a lot of things.  I love the digital storage analog
scopes of the 80s but the modern digital scopes have their place too.

-Bob

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Alan Melia alan.melia@btinternet.comwrote:

I think you can use the 7854 to digitize the output of the sampling PIs.
The place to ask is Tekscopes2. You might need to do a small mod to the
7T11A for proper triggering. I vaguely remember seeing it in a manual
(7854 or 7T11A ??) somewhere.

As I remember the 7854 A/Ds don't work with the SA PIs, which generate
their own displays, but do work with all other PIs.

FWIW,

-John

===============

Like hammers, every tool has it's place and if you only have one
hammer, everything looks like a 10penny nail.

As a guy with an unfortunate affliction to test equipment, (as do many
of you, I'm sure) I've got a 7000 series analog scope which I love, a
tek 2236 portable, a DS602 digital, and a parallel port PC based
digital. Each has it's place.

Nothing beats the Tek 7000 series for flexibility and bang for your
buck. From simple, low speed time bases and vertical amplifiers,
through the various digital plugins such as counters and logic
analyzers, the spectrum analyzer plugins, through the very high speed
time bases and plug ins. The joy is that it allows you to start with
something that works for your early needs and a wide range of upgrade
paths. Plugins are plentiful and relatively inexpensive. Between a
large box of plug ins and the mainframe itself, I think I might have
$500 invested. The spectrum analyzer was another $400.

The DSA602 was an impulse purchase that I think I probably could have
lived without. The 1Ghz bandwidth plugins are not easily found, but
the FFT function is very handy. My biggest complaint is that it takes
too long to boot up! Again, an inexpensive option for a scope, good
into the ghz range for a few hundred dollars.

The older PC based scopes are just too slow for most of what I do
anymore, though they are handy logic analyzers if you only need a few
channels. For many channels, an Tek 1240 or 1241 is tough to beat.
Less than $100, $50 if you search for up to 32 channels just makes
doing that job simple.

Your worries about warrantee are quite valid. But if I can get a used
scope or bit of test equipment for less than $0.50 on the dollar of a
new one, it's a pretty good bargain for home use. If it is for work,
whole different story. That's where the 2236 came in. I was making a
living on the road doing field service. It couldn't break or I'd be in
deep sneakers. So it arrived new in a box. Of course that was many
many moons ago.

Bob
KI2L

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Robert Darlington
rdarlington@gmail.com wrote:

Two comments:

I have a lot of Tek 7xxx stuff and almost none of it cost anything like
$0.50 on the dollar. Virtually everything cost well under $0.10 /dollar.

Also, 7xxx and 4xx stuff uses mostly standard components and technology
(no SMTs). This means if it breaks (rarely in my experience) it can be
repaired, so the warranty issue is moot.

FWIW,

-John

==============

Hi Bill:

I too looked at the BitScope but went with the Rigol.  It turns out that
Rigol DS1052E makes the low end HP scopes, i.e. they are very high
quality and fantastic value for the money.  There's a software hack to
upgrade them from 50 to 100 Mhz.  See:
http://www.prc68.com/I/RigolDS1052E.shtml
Also check out the EEVB blog videos on this scope linked on the above
web page.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com

William H. Fite wrote:

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com

Interesting that you should post this, Brooke.  The local guy who was going
to sell me the TDS1012 got in touch and asked if I had looked at the Rigol
DS1052E.  He's a buddy and was selling me the Tek at his cost so no skin off
his nose if I buy a Rigol--which he does not sell.  I've spent the last hour
or so reading reviews and they are uniformly excellent.  So I think I'm
going that way.  The low screen resolution will annoy me for a week and then
I'll forget it.  My needs are not demanding and it should do just fine.

As to all the folks advocating 7xxx, 2xxx, etc. Tek scopes, I am neither an
EE or a technician and trying to keep a 20+ year old scope running offers no
allure for me.  I don't like troubleshooting and I don't do it efficiently,
so...

Anyway, if you have time, give me a more detailed review of the Rigol from
your own experience.

Thanks,

Bill

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Brooke Clarke brooke95482@att.net wrote:

It is the one that I use most. An impulse purchase also (more than one,
in fact). Well, it takes a bit to boot up... but the thing that it
really takes is space! The one I like most is the analog 11302A :)

Regards,

Javier

--

Javier Herrero                            EMAIL: jherrero@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L.                          PHONE:        +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17                        FAX:          +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain      WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com

And for what it's worth, my digital scope is a TDS-1012 and I've been happy with it.

John

On Oct 31, 2010, at 12:32 PM, "J. Forster" jfor@quik.com wrote:

Hi Bill:

I really like the Rigol carry case for the scope since it's a way to
keep all the bits and pieces together.  So if you're shopping eBay look
for the combination package that includes the carry case.  Deal Extreme
had the best price last time I looked.  Watch the reviews linked on my
Rigol weg page done by EEVB.
http://www.prc68.com/I/RigolDS1052E.shtml

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com

William H. Fite wrote:

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com

It looks like Rigol cloned Tek or Tek cloned Rigol.

-John

===============

http://www.saelig.com/ has some inexpensive and interesting stuff (I have
not bought
anything from them yet, but the bench scopes start at $287!).

Stan

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of William H. Fite
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:35 AM
To: PC Oscilloscope
Subject: [time-nuts] A little quick advice, please

'morning, folks,

I was just on a verge of purchasing a Tek TDS1012 scope when a friend
suggested that I could save a chunk of change by buying a BitScope. Although
I've been aware of PC scopes, I never really looked into them.  The specs
look pretty good (the fact that I was looking at an entry-level Tek will
give you some idea of my needs).

Anyone have any experience with BitScope or other of the low-end PC scopes?

Thanks,

Bill

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 12:25:22PM -0700, J. Forster wrote:

I would agree... I have rarely seen 80s/90s used TE sell for

more than about 5 cents on the original MSRP dollar... lots is
advertised for more, but look on Terapeak and see how much of that
actually ever sells at those prices.  One assumes the few items that do
sell at those exorbitant prices are either sold to naive newbies  who
don't know better or some company or agency that has the gear written
into a test procedure or installed in a system with specific to the
device software and simply MUST have an exact replacement.  And I darkly
suspect a few sales at high prices are money laundering... or conceal
other shenanigans...

--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

Pretty much agreed.

There are a few dealers who hold out for near-list prices and can afford
to have stuff not move, because when they do make a sale the profit is
very high. Some, like ElectroCraft, don't make it. Others, like Tucker,
apparently do.

I frankly doubt that the "gotta have XYZ and only that" is very big any
more because the US doesn't make all that much hardware any more.

FWIW,

-John

============

On 11/01/2010 01:42 AM, J. Forster wrote:

Regardless where the hardware is made, the prime time for certain boxes
is limited, after that they are plentiful enough available such that
certain high-price strategies doesn't hold too long.

Certain very specific things can be found for decent prices, even if
still fairly substantial sums.

I've picked up several nice things which I never tough I could afford,
but the price was much more manageable all of a sudden. I had to pick
the pieces from different places, but the end set is more or less complete.

In one case I made an offer one of those shelf-warmers that is pretty
useless for most people. I tossed in the offer at 1/3 of the asking
price, and they accepted. Both parties happy I guess. I got the
calibrator for the 5370 and 5372 counters. Should use that a little more
often.

Cheers,
Magnus