GPSDO standard interface?
In an offline communication, I suddenly realized that I hadn't given any thought to the user interface for my GPSDO. Is there an accepted standard interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky Microsoft-esque world of patents and lawyers?
Bob - AE6RV
Well, I built one of the ve2zaz units, and it has a. Pretty well defined serial interface. On the other hand, the one I use most has a PIC and an LCD, no serial interface.
On Jun 25, 2014, at 20:10, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
In an offline communication, I suddenly realized that I hadn't given any thought to the user interface for my GPSDO. Is there an accepted standard interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky Microsoft-esque world of patents and lawyers?
Bob - AE6RV
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I have one of Bert's boards, and in fact that's what I made my TIC daughterboard for; though of course I butchered his interface to manage PID gain, etc. So, I was thinking more along the lines of something standard and robust. I've seen Lady Heather mentioned several times as an control/monitor program, but I've never looked into it. Does it just control Trimble GPSDOs, or are there other GPSDO interfaces that it can handle? Or, has everyone just copied/adopted Trimble's interface and it's not a legal issue? Like I said, I have totally neglected this important issue until now.
Bob
From: bownes bownes@gmail.com
To: Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
Well, I built one of the ve2zaz units, and it has a. Pretty well defined serial interface. On the other hand, the one I use most has a PIC and an LCD, no serial interface.
On Jun 25, 2014, at 20:10, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
In an offline communication, I suddenly realized that I hadn't given any thought to the user interface for my GPSDO. Is there an accepted standard interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky Microsoft-esque world of patents and lawyers?
Bob - AE6RV
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
Is there an accepted standard interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky
Microsoft-esque world of patents and lawyers?
No. There is no standard and many (most?) don't have any kind of user
interface at all, just the 10MHz output BNC connector.
The simple thing would be to add some kind of LED that shows activity and a
second LED that indicates a lock within some acceptable limit.
The Trimble unit is both a GPS receiver and a GPSDO so it has the kind of
serial interface you'd expect on a GPS receiver.It would not make sense to
copy this because your GPSDO will already have a GPS receiver that will be
sending status and accepting commands.
One is you likely do NOT want is to force the user to have to connect a PC
in order to operate the user interface. Much better to use a self
contained $5 LCD display. It is very easy to add a text-only LCD to most
any project that uses a micro controller and it is not much harder to add a
graphical LCD of the type used on older cell phones. These can do graphics.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Bob,
A couple of different ideas:
-
No UI at all. The surplus GPSDO favorites over the years (like the HP SmartClock's and Trimble Thunderbolt) work with no UI. Yes, there is a PC program you can use to monitor and control it, or even debug it, but it is completely optional. Many GPSDO work out of the box. Maybe, like HP, have one green LED to say all-is-well.
-
A very simple 9600 baud command set that you can use with any terminal program. Adding LCD is fine too. But make sure everything on the LCD is also available over RS232. Not everyone wants to visually monitor the LCD of every piece of gear on their bench; let a PC log and archive all the data, check for problems, make plots, etc.
-
Mimic enough of HP's SCPI command set so that GPScon and other tools like that can be used, transparently. I forget if your GPSDO includes a receiver or not.
-
Mimic enough of Trimble's TSIP so that LH and other tools like that can be used, transparently.
Please write enough code so that the GPSDO, by default, can work "out of the box". I'm evaluating a prototype GPSDO right now that requires all sorts of user input just to get it started and to keep it going. That gets old. My bias is: time spent creating clever adaptive algorithms to make a human unnecessary is better than time spent creating an elaborate UI that requires a user (and operation manual) and constant monitoring or adjusting.
/tvb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Stewart" bob@evoria.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:10 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
In an offline communication, I suddenly realized that I hadn't given any thought to the user interface for my GPSDO. Is there an accepted standard interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky Microsoft-esque world of patents and lawyers?
Bob - AE6RV
After reading Chris's response, it dawned on me that I'm treading a different path from what I've seen on the list. It's not so much a GPSDO as a general purpose GPSDO engine. It uses a number of ideas from Bert's board, like the dual-rail op-amp output, but it also has a TIC, so it will have sawtooth correction. I have included 2 TTY ports: one for the receiver and one for the PC interface. I'm going to use the DAC on the dsPIC, but there will be an SPI port that can be used to drive an off-board DAC, instead. There's also the possibility of switching some stuff around and having an I2C port, and the ICSP header could also hook up to an additional thermistor or two, or perform other digital functions.
So, there will be some minor user fiddling, like with Bert's board, due to the flexibility of the OCXO. But, I'll be using the P and D from the PID control system, so it shouldn't be difficult to setup. There will be a power LED, an output enable LED, and a bi-color LED to signify status, but only the status would be necessary. I'll do what I can to make it smart enough to plug and play for most circumstances, but I only have the one OCXO brand to test with at the moment. I do have 3 receivers to test with now: Adafruit, UT+, and LEA-6T. Keep in mind that I don't expect this to be a lucrative commercial business venture, so my budget is almost nonexistent.
I'll look into both SCPI and TSIP, and therein lies the reason for my original post. Essentially, have they been patented, and if so, have those patents expired? Some companies guard their interfaces very rigorously to forestall competitive disruption. I don't want to suddenly get a cease and desist letter or a notice of lawsuit over a hobbyist kit. It's one thing to provide open source software to monitor/control a successful product. It's an entirely different thing to provide an alternative product with an identical user interface.
I just ordered the first prototype boards today, but the software should be just a rewrite of what I did for the TIC on Bert's board, with a lot of extras thrown in. Not that that doesn't mean a lot of work, of course.
Bob
From: Tom Van Baak tvb@LeapSecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
Bob,
A couple of different ideas:
-
No UI at all. The surplus GPSDO favorites over the years (like the HP SmartClock's and Trimble Thunderbolt) work with no UI. Yes, there is a PC program you can use to monitor and control it, or even debug it, but it is completely optional. Many GPSDO work out of the box. Maybe, like HP, have one green LED to say all-is-well.
-
A very simple 9600 baud command set that you can use with any terminal program. Adding LCD is fine too. But make sure everything on the LCD is also available over RS232. Not everyone wants to visually monitor the LCD of every piece of gear on their bench; let a PC log and archive all the data, check for problems, make plots, etc.
-
Mimic enough of HP's SCPI command set so that GPScon and other tools like that can be used, transparently. I forget if your GPSDO includes a receiver or not.
-
Mimic enough of Trimble's TSIP so that LH and other tools like that can be used, transparently.
Please write enough code so that the GPSDO, by default, can work "out of the box". I'm evaluating a prototype GPSDO right now that requires all sorts of user input just to get it started and to keep it going. That gets old. My bias is: time spent creating clever adaptive algorithms to make a human unnecessary is better than time spent creating an elaborate UI that requires a user (and operation manual) and constant monitoring or adjusting.
/tvb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Stewart" bob@evoria.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:10 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
In an offline communication, I suddenly realized that I hadn't given any thought to the user interface for my GPSDO. Is there an accepted standard interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky Microsoft-esque world of patents and lawyers?
Bob - AE6RV
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Tom,
On 06/26/2014 04:02 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
Bob,
A couple of different ideas:
-
No UI at all. The surplus GPSDO favorites over the years (like the HP SmartClock's and Trimble Thunderbolt) work with no UI. Yes, there is a PC program you can use to monitor and control it, or even debug it, but it is completely optional. Many GPSDO work out of the box. Maybe, like HP, have one green LED to say all-is-well.
-
A very simple 9600 baud command set that you can use with any terminal program. Adding LCD is fine too. But make sure everything on the LCD is also available over RS232. Not everyone wants to visually monitor the LCD of every piece of gear on their bench; let a PC log and archive all the data, check for problems, make plots, etc.
-
Mimic enough of HP's SCPI command set so that GPScon and other tools like that can be used, transparently. I forget if your GPSDO includes a receiver or not.
SCPI in general is an attempt at creating a standard interface for
instruments, and it has a pretty nice structure and logic to it.
Building on SCPI one should be able to get a pretty good and stable
interface. Jackson lab continues that tradition.
- Mimic enough of Trimble's TSIP so that LH and other tools like that can be used, transparently.
Please write enough code so that the GPSDO, by default, can work "out of the box". I'm evaluating a prototype GPSDO right now that requires all sorts of user input just to get it started and to keep it going. That gets old. My bias is: time spent creating clever adaptive algorithms to make a human unnecessary is better than time spent creating an elaborate UI that requires a user (and operation manual) and constant monitoring or adjusting.
We should really see if we could not have LH work for SCPI GPSDOs as
well. I won't get GPScon.
PS. At EFTF 2014 in Neuchatel, the hotel assigned me room 133, so I feel
on time and stable. :)
Cheers,
Magnus
Much better than room 137.
BTW, if you run into a physicist someday who can calculate 9192.631770 MHz directly from quantum mechanics, ask them to calculate the other isotopes of cesium. They should be different. But I have no idea how much or little.
/tvb
PS. At EFTF 2014 in Neuchatel, the hotel assigned me room 133, so I feel
on time and stable. :)
Cheers,
Magnus
If you want a common interface for GPS receivers it's "NMEA" and it's
relatively easy to implement. I certain would NOT translate to TSIP as
that is rather obscure. NMEA is a very common standard and many GPSes can
output NMEA.
Also you talked about "serial". I hate to say it but "who in 2014 wants a
serial device? USB is the only reasonable interface to a computer. If you
used serial then you would just need to buy a serial to USB adapter so you
may as well build that into your controller. In 2014 those old DB9 and
DB25 connectors should be banned from all new designs.
Realistically the user interface in most home made gear is a few "#ifdef"
in the code at the top of the file. You change those and recompile and
send the new software to the controller. It's not bad having to re-compile
in order to support a different GPS receiver. You would not want to swap
the brand of GPS in a user interface. You do that with solder and wires
and recompiling
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
After reading Chris's response, it dawned on me that I'm treading a
different path from what I've seen on the list. It's not so much a GPSDO
as a general purpose GPSDO engine. It uses a number of ideas from Bert's
board, like the dual-rail op-amp output, but it also has a TIC, so it will
have sawtooth correction. I have included 2 TTY ports: one for the
receiver and one for the PC interface. I'm going to use the DAC on the
dsPIC, but there will be an SPI port that can be used to drive an off-board
DAC, instead. There's also the possibility of switching some stuff around
and having an I2C port, and the ICSP header could also hook up to an
additional thermistor or two, or perform other digital functions.
So, there will be some minor user fiddling, like with Bert's board, due to
the flexibility of the OCXO. But, I'll be using the P and D from the PID
control system, so it shouldn't be difficult to setup. There will be a
power LED, an output enable LED, and a bi-color LED to signify status, but
only the status would be necessary. I'll do what I can to make it smart
enough to plug and play for most circumstances, but I only have the one
OCXO brand to test with at the moment. I do have 3 receivers to test with
now: Adafruit, UT+, and LEA-6T. Keep in mind that I don't expect this to
be a lucrative commercial business venture, so my budget is almost
nonexistent.
I'll look into both SCPI and TSIP, and therein lies the reason for my
original post. Essentially, have they been patented, and if so, have those
patents expired? Some companies guard their interfaces very rigorously to
forestall competitive disruption. I don't want to suddenly get a cease and
desist letter or a notice of lawsuit over a hobbyist kit. It's one thing
to provide open source software to monitor/control a successful product.
It's an entirely different thing to provide an alternative product with an
identical user interface.
I just ordered the first prototype boards today, but the software should
be just a rewrite of what I did for the TIC on Bert's board, with a lot of
extras thrown in. Not that that doesn't mean a lot of work, of course.
Bob
From: Tom Van Baak tvb@LeapSecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
Bob,
A couple of different ideas:
-
No UI at all. The surplus GPSDO favorites over the years (like the HP
SmartClock's and Trimble Thunderbolt) work with no UI. Yes, there is a PC
program you can use to monitor and control it, or even debug it, but it is
completely optional. Many GPSDO work out of the box. Maybe, like HP, have
one green LED to say all-is-well. -
A very simple 9600 baud command set that you can use with any terminal
program. Adding LCD is fine too. But make sure everything on the LCD is
also available over RS232. Not everyone wants to visually monitor the LCD
of every piece of gear on their bench; let a PC log and archive all the
data, check for problems, make plots, etc. -
Mimic enough of HP's SCPI command set so that GPScon and other tools
like that can be used, transparently. I forget if your GPSDO includes a
receiver or not. -
Mimic enough of Trimble's TSIP so that LH and other tools like that can
be used, transparently.
Please write enough code so that the GPSDO, by default, can work "out of
the box". I'm evaluating a prototype GPSDO right now that requires all
sorts of user input just to get it started and to keep it going. That gets
old. My bias is: time spent creating clever adaptive algorithms to make a
human unnecessary is better than time spent creating an elaborate UI that
requires a user (and operation manual) and constant monitoring or adjusting.
/tvb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Stewart" bob@evoria.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:10 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
In an offline communication, I suddenly realized that I hadn't given any
thought to the user interface for my GPSDO. Is there an accepted standard
interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky Microsoft-esque world of patents
and lawyers?
Bob - AE6RV
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Chris,
NMEA is a good 'general purpose' interface for GPS units but I thought this thread was about the GPSDO interface. Not quite the same - TSIP/SCPI would make rather more sense here, especially with all those Thunderbolts about :-)
Most GPS receivers still supply at least one serial interface even if a USB interface is included too. Consumer grade 'very small' navigation type GPS units may dispense with the serial ports but we are not too worried about those devices, surely? I don't see why a serial to USB converter would be needed - serial ports are still available on a reasonably large number of motherboards, especially if you are using mini-ITX or similar for embedded projects, and a hardware UART is a much more reliable interface. USB/serial adaptors 'still' give erratic results and scanning usb ports for new devices is also a bit of a lottery at times.
A serial interface is also the easiest to convert to a more 'robust' physical media for electrically 'unpleasant' environments .... and DB9/25 connectors are a LOT more reliable than USB connectors too!
regards,
Paul G8GJA
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: 26 June 2014 08:13
To: Bob Stewart; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
If you want a common interface for GPS receivers it's "NMEA" and it's
relatively easy to implement. I certain would NOT translate to TSIP as
that is rather obscure. NMEA is a very common standard and many GPSes can
output NMEA.
Also you talked about "serial". I hate to say it but "who in 2014 wants a
serial device? USB is the only reasonable interface to a computer. If you
used serial then you would just need to buy a serial to USB adapter so you
may as well build that into your controller. In 2014 those old DB9 and
DB25 connectors should be banned from all new designs.
Realistically the user interface in most home made gear is a few "#ifdef"
in the code at the top of the file. You change those and recompile and
send the new software to the controller. It's not bad having to re-compile
in order to support a different GPS receiver. You would not want to swap
the brand of GPS in a user interface. You do that with solder and wires
and recompiling
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
After reading Chris's response, it dawned on me that I'm treading a
different path from what I've seen on the list. It's not so much a GPSDO
as a general purpose GPSDO engine. It uses a number of ideas from Bert's
board, like the dual-rail op-amp output, but it also has a TIC, so it will
have sawtooth correction. I have included 2 TTY ports: one for the
receiver and one for the PC interface. I'm going to use the DAC on the
dsPIC, but there will be an SPI port that can be used to drive an off-board
DAC, instead. There's also the possibility of switching some stuff around
and having an I2C port, and the ICSP header could also hook up to an
additional thermistor or two, or perform other digital functions.
So, there will be some minor user fiddling, like with Bert's board, due to
the flexibility of the OCXO. But, I'll be using the P and D from the PID
control system, so it shouldn't be difficult to setup. There will be a
power LED, an output enable LED, and a bi-color LED to signify status, but
only the status would be necessary. I'll do what I can to make it smart
enough to plug and play for most circumstances, but I only have the one
OCXO brand to test with at the moment. I do have 3 receivers to test with
now: Adafruit, UT+, and LEA-6T. Keep in mind that I don't expect this to
be a lucrative commercial business venture, so my budget is almost
nonexistent.
I'll look into both SCPI and TSIP, and therein lies the reason for my
original post. Essentially, have they been patented, and if so, have those
patents expired? Some companies guard their interfaces very rigorously to
forestall competitive disruption. I don't want to suddenly get a cease and
desist letter or a notice of lawsuit over a hobbyist kit. It's one thing
to provide open source software to monitor/control a successful product.
It's an entirely different thing to provide an alternative product with an
identical user interface.
I just ordered the first prototype boards today, but the software should
be just a rewrite of what I did for the TIC on Bert's board, with a lot of
extras thrown in. Not that that doesn't mean a lot of work, of course.
Bob
From: Tom Van Baak tvb@LeapSecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
Bob,
A couple of different ideas:
-
No UI at all. The surplus GPSDO favorites over the years (like the HP
SmartClock's and Trimble Thunderbolt) work with no UI. Yes, there is a PC
program you can use to monitor and control it, or even debug it, but it is
completely optional. Many GPSDO work out of the box. Maybe, like HP, have
one green LED to say all-is-well. -
A very simple 9600 baud command set that you can use with any terminal
program. Adding LCD is fine too. But make sure everything on the LCD is
also available over RS232. Not everyone wants to visually monitor the LCD
of every piece of gear on their bench; let a PC log and archive all the
data, check for problems, make plots, etc. -
Mimic enough of HP's SCPI command set so that GPScon and other tools
like that can be used, transparently. I forget if your GPSDO includes a
receiver or not. -
Mimic enough of Trimble's TSIP so that LH and other tools like that can
be used, transparently.
Please write enough code so that the GPSDO, by default, can work "out of
the box". I'm evaluating a prototype GPSDO right now that requires all
sorts of user input just to get it started and to keep it going. That gets
old. My bias is: time spent creating clever adaptive algorithms to make a
human unnecessary is better than time spent creating an elaborate UI that
requires a user (and operation manual) and constant monitoring or adjusting.
/tvb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Stewart" bob@evoria.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:10 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
In an offline communication, I suddenly realized that I hadn't given any
thought to the user interface for my GPSDO. Is there an accepted standard
interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky Microsoft-esque world of patents
and lawyers?
Bob - AE6RV
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
One gotcha with TISP <-> NEMA is that they use different units for things like position. Yes it’s just math to translate them. No it’s not trivial on a little tiny PIC. If the GPS in your GPSDO is a NEMA (or NEMA like) device, you either will have a mix of TISP and NEMA or a lot of translation ...
Bob
On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:38 AM, REEVES Paul Paul.Reeves@uk.thalesgroup.com wrote:
Chris,
NMEA is a good 'general purpose' interface for GPS units but I thought this thread was about the GPSDO interface. Not quite the same - TSIP/SCPI would make rather more sense here, especially with all those Thunderbolts about :-)
Most GPS receivers still supply at least one serial interface even if a USB interface is included too. Consumer grade 'very small' navigation type GPS units may dispense with the serial ports but we are not too worried about those devices, surely? I don't see why a serial to USB converter would be needed - serial ports are still available on a reasonably large number of motherboards, especially if you are using mini-ITX or similar for embedded projects, and a hardware UART is a much more reliable interface. USB/serial adaptors 'still' give erratic results and scanning usb ports for new devices is also a bit of a lottery at times.
A serial interface is also the easiest to convert to a more 'robust' physical media for electrically 'unpleasant' environments .... and DB9/25 connectors are a LOT more reliable than USB connectors too!
regards,
Paul G8GJA
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: 26 June 2014 08:13
To: Bob Stewart; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
If you want a common interface for GPS receivers it's "NMEA" and it's
relatively easy to implement. I certain would NOT translate to TSIP as
that is rather obscure. NMEA is a very common standard and many GPSes can
output NMEA.
Also you talked about "serial". I hate to say it but "who in 2014 wants a
serial device? USB is the only reasonable interface to a computer. If you
used serial then you would just need to buy a serial to USB adapter so you
may as well build that into your controller. In 2014 those old DB9 and
DB25 connectors should be banned from all new designs.
Realistically the user interface in most home made gear is a few "#ifdef"
in the code at the top of the file. You change those and recompile and
send the new software to the controller. It's not bad having to re-compile
in order to support a different GPS receiver. You would not want to swap
the brand of GPS in a user interface. You do that with solder and wires
and recompiling
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
After reading Chris's response, it dawned on me that I'm treading a
different path from what I've seen on the list. It's not so much a GPSDO
as a general purpose GPSDO engine. It uses a number of ideas from Bert's
board, like the dual-rail op-amp output, but it also has a TIC, so it will
have sawtooth correction. I have included 2 TTY ports: one for the
receiver and one for the PC interface. I'm going to use the DAC on the
dsPIC, but there will be an SPI port that can be used to drive an off-board
DAC, instead. There's also the possibility of switching some stuff around
and having an I2C port, and the ICSP header could also hook up to an
additional thermistor or two, or perform other digital functions.
So, there will be some minor user fiddling, like with Bert's board, due to
the flexibility of the OCXO. But, I'll be using the P and D from the PID
control system, so it shouldn't be difficult to setup. There will be a
power LED, an output enable LED, and a bi-color LED to signify status, but
only the status would be necessary. I'll do what I can to make it smart
enough to plug and play for most circumstances, but I only have the one
OCXO brand to test with at the moment. I do have 3 receivers to test with
now: Adafruit, UT+, and LEA-6T. Keep in mind that I don't expect this to
be a lucrative commercial business venture, so my budget is almost
nonexistent.
I'll look into both SCPI and TSIP, and therein lies the reason for my
original post. Essentially, have they been patented, and if so, have those
patents expired? Some companies guard their interfaces very rigorously to
forestall competitive disruption. I don't want to suddenly get a cease and
desist letter or a notice of lawsuit over a hobbyist kit. It's one thing
to provide open source software to monitor/control a successful product.
It's an entirely different thing to provide an alternative product with an
identical user interface.
I just ordered the first prototype boards today, but the software should
be just a rewrite of what I did for the TIC on Bert's board, with a lot of
extras thrown in. Not that that doesn't mean a lot of work, of course.
Bob
From: Tom Van Baak tvb@LeapSecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
Bob,
A couple of different ideas:
-
No UI at all. The surplus GPSDO favorites over the years (like the HP
SmartClock's and Trimble Thunderbolt) work with no UI. Yes, there is a PC
program you can use to monitor and control it, or even debug it, but it is
completely optional. Many GPSDO work out of the box. Maybe, like HP, have
one green LED to say all-is-well. -
A very simple 9600 baud command set that you can use with any terminal
program. Adding LCD is fine too. But make sure everything on the LCD is
also available over RS232. Not everyone wants to visually monitor the LCD
of every piece of gear on their bench; let a PC log and archive all the
data, check for problems, make plots, etc. -
Mimic enough of HP's SCPI command set so that GPScon and other tools
like that can be used, transparently. I forget if your GPSDO includes a
receiver or not. -
Mimic enough of Trimble's TSIP so that LH and other tools like that can
be used, transparently.
Please write enough code so that the GPSDO, by default, can work "out of
the box". I'm evaluating a prototype GPSDO right now that requires all
sorts of user input just to get it started and to keep it going. That gets
old. My bias is: time spent creating clever adaptive algorithms to make a
human unnecessary is better than time spent creating an elaborate UI that
requires a user (and operation manual) and constant monitoring or adjusting.
/tvb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Stewart" bob@evoria.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:10 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
In an offline communication, I suddenly realized that I hadn't given any
thought to the user interface for my GPSDO. Is there an accepted standard
interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky Microsoft-esque world of patents
and lawyers?
Bob - AE6RV
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Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:14 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
I'll look into both SCPI and TSIP, and therein lies the reason for my original post. Essentially, have they been patented, and if so, have those patents expired?
You almost certainly want to use SCPI which is managed by IVI and is
part of the joint IEEE/IEC post 488 spec. Said can probably provide
the vendor perspective (ie. price).
NMEA is proprietary and all the useful commands are vendor specific.
TSIP is only interesting because LH can manage a few versions but
besides being proprietary it's device specific.
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 2:38 AM, REEVES Paul <Paul.Reeves@uk.thalesgroup.com
wrote:
Chris,
NMEA is a good 'general purpose' interface for GPS units but I thought
this thread was about the GPSDO interface. Not quite the same - TSIP/SCPI
would make rather more sense here, especially with all those Thunderbolts
about
Can you implement TSIP? Just a rough design. That's the problem. You
have a UT+ or other interchangeable GPS (The OP wants to be able to swap
between three GPS receivers) Can you design a inversion "X to TSIP"
tanslators and a TSIP command inter peter? I think you will find that TSIP
depends on having Trimble hardware some of what it reports simply does not
exist in a UT+ or other.
NMEA is actually not just a GPS interface. other kinds of instruments use
NMEA, wind meters, depth finders, logs, magnetic compass and even Inertial
systems. radars accept it and so on. It is also easy to translate into
NEMA and it's an easy format to work with. There are LOTS and LOTS of
software that can plot NMEA sentences, far more than TSIP.
We have pretty muh gone past the the possibility of using a tiny 8-bit
micro controller. Why not use a Beagle Board or Raspberry Pi as the
controller? They cost about $40 but now you can run a multi tasting OS
and even the Apache web server and do the user interface as a web page.
The web interface is great you can access it on a PC or a phone and from
any place on Earth with a Internet connection. Costs only a few dollars
more for the controller.
T
Most GPS receivers still supply at least one serial interface even if a
USB interface is included too. Consumer grade 'very small' navigation type
GPS units may dispense with the serial ports but we are not too worried
about those devices, surely? I don't see why a serial to USB converter
would be needed - serial ports are still available on a reasonably large
number of motherboards, especially if you are using mini-ITX or similar for
embedded projects, and a hardware UART is a much more reliable interface.
USB/serial adaptors 'still' give erratic results and scanning usb ports for
new devices is also a bit of a lottery at times.
A serial interface is also the easiest to convert to a more 'robust'
physical media for electrically 'unpleasant' environments .... and DB9/25
connectors are a LOT more reliable than USB connectors too!
regards,
Paul G8GJA
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: 26 June 2014 08:13
To: Bob Stewart; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
If you want a common interface for GPS receivers it's "NMEA" and it's
relatively easy to implement. I certain would NOT translate to TSIP as
that is rather obscure. NMEA is a very common standard and many GPSes can
output NMEA.
Also you talked about "serial". I hate to say it but "who in 2014 wants a
serial device? USB is the only reasonable interface to a computer. If you
used serial then you would just need to buy a serial to USB adapter so you
may as well build that into your controller. In 2014 those old DB9 and
DB25 connectors should be banned from all new designs.
Realistically the user interface in most home made gear is a few "#ifdef"
in the code at the top of the file. You change those and recompile and
send the new software to the controller. It's not bad having to re-compile
in order to support a different GPS receiver. You would not want to swap
the brand of GPS in a user interface. You do that with solder and wires
and recompiling
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
After reading Chris's response, it dawned on me that I'm treading a
different path from what I've seen on the list. It's not so much a GPSDO
as a general purpose GPSDO engine. It uses a number of ideas from Bert's
board, like the dual-rail op-amp output, but it also has a TIC, so it
will
have sawtooth correction. I have included 2 TTY ports: one for the
receiver and one for the PC interface. I'm going to use the DAC on the
dsPIC, but there will be an SPI port that can be used to drive an
off-board
DAC, instead. There's also the possibility of switching some stuff
around
and having an I2C port, and the ICSP header could also hook up to an
additional thermistor or two, or perform other digital functions.
So, there will be some minor user fiddling, like with Bert's board, due
to
the flexibility of the OCXO. But, I'll be using the P and D from the PID
control system, so it shouldn't be difficult to setup. There will be a
power LED, an output enable LED, and a bi-color LED to signify status,
but
only the status would be necessary. I'll do what I can to make it smart
enough to plug and play for most circumstances, but I only have the one
OCXO brand to test with at the moment. I do have 3 receivers to test
with
now: Adafruit, UT+, and LEA-6T. Keep in mind that I don't expect this to
be a lucrative commercial business venture, so my budget is almost
nonexistent.
I'll look into both SCPI and TSIP, and therein lies the reason for my
original post. Essentially, have they been patented, and if so, have
those
patents expired? Some companies guard their interfaces very rigorously
to
forestall competitive disruption. I don't want to suddenly get a cease
and
desist letter or a notice of lawsuit over a hobbyist kit. It's one thing
to provide open source software to monitor/control a successful product.
It's an entirely different thing to provide an alternative product with
an
identical user interface.
I just ordered the first prototype boards today, but the software should
be just a rewrite of what I did for the TIC on Bert's board, with a lot
of
extras thrown in. Not that that doesn't mean a lot of work, of course.
Bob
From: Tom Van Baak tvb@LeapSecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
Bob,
A couple of different ideas:
- No UI at all. The surplus GPSDO favorites over the years (like the HP
SmartClock's and Trimble Thunderbolt) work with no UI. Yes, there is a PC
program you can use to monitor and control it, or even debug it, but it
is
completely optional. Many GPSDO work out of the box. Maybe, like HP, have
one green LED to say all-is-well.
-
A very simple 9600 baud command set that you can use with any terminal
program. Adding LCD is fine too. But make sure everything on the LCD is
also available over RS232. Not everyone wants to visually monitor the LCD
of every piece of gear on their bench; let a PC log and archive all the
data, check for problems, make plots, etc. -
Mimic enough of HP's SCPI command set so that GPScon and other tools
like that can be used, transparently. I forget if your GPSDO includes a
receiver or not. -
Mimic enough of Trimble's TSIP so that LH and other tools like that
can
be used, transparently.
Please write enough code so that the GPSDO, by default, can work "out of
the box". I'm evaluating a prototype GPSDO right now that requires all
sorts of user input just to get it started and to keep it going. That
gets
old. My bias is: time spent creating clever adaptive algorithms to make a
human unnecessary is better than time spent creating an elaborate UI that
requires a user (and operation manual) and constant monitoring or
adjusting.
/tvb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Stewart" bob@evoria.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:10 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
In an offline communication, I suddenly realized that I hadn't given any
thought to the user interface for my GPSDO. Is there an accepted standard
interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky Microsoft-esque world of patents
and lawyers?
Bob - AE6RV
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
USB may be a common interface to a computer but practically useless to another microcontroller.
Everything can do serial but not everything can do USB master. In the worst case, use a Serial-USB adapter on your PC. There is no such thing as a Serial-USB master interface and never will there be one. USB is PC centric.
Didier KO4BB
On June 26, 2014 2:13:00 AM CDT, Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com wrote:
If you want a common interface for GPS receivers it's "NMEA" and it's
relatively easy to implement. I certain would NOT translate to TSIP as
that is rather obscure. NMEA is a very common standard and many GPSes
can
output NMEA.
Also you talked about "serial". I hate to say it but "who in 2014
wants a
serial device? USB is the only reasonable interface to a computer. If
you
used serial then you would just need to buy a serial to USB adapter so
you
may as well build that into your controller. In 2014 those old DB9
and
DB25 connectors should be banned from all new designs.
Realistically the user interface in most home made gear is a few
"#ifdef"
in the code at the top of the file. You change those and recompile and
send the new software to the controller. It's not bad having to
re-compile
in order to support a different GPS receiver. You would not want to
swap
the brand of GPS in a user interface. You do that with solder and
wires
and recompiling
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Bob Stewart bob@evoria.net wrote:
After reading Chris's response, it dawned on me that I'm treading a
different path from what I've seen on the list. It's not so much a
GPSDO
as a general purpose GPSDO engine. It uses a number of ideas from
Bert's
board, like the dual-rail op-amp output, but it also has a TIC, so it
will
have sawtooth correction. I have included 2 TTY ports: one for the
receiver and one for the PC interface. I'm going to use the DAC on
the
dsPIC, but there will be an SPI port that can be used to drive an
off-board
DAC, instead. There's also the possibility of switching some stuff
around
and having an I2C port, and the ICSP header could also hook up to an
additional thermistor or two, or perform other digital functions.
So, there will be some minor user fiddling, like with Bert's board,
due to
the flexibility of the OCXO. But, I'll be using the P and D from the
PID
control system, so it shouldn't be difficult to setup. There will be
a
power LED, an output enable LED, and a bi-color LED to signify
status, but
only the status would be necessary. I'll do what I can to make it
smart
enough to plug and play for most circumstances, but I only have the
one
OCXO brand to test with at the moment. I do have 3 receivers to test
with
now: Adafruit, UT+, and LEA-6T. Keep in mind that I don't expect
this to
be a lucrative commercial business venture, so my budget is almost
nonexistent.
I'll look into both SCPI and TSIP, and therein lies the reason for my
original post. Essentially, have they been patented, and if so, have
those
patents expired? Some companies guard their interfaces very
rigorously to
forestall competitive disruption. I don't want to suddenly get a
cease and
desist letter or a notice of lawsuit over a hobbyist kit. It's one
thing
to provide open source software to monitor/control a successful
product.
It's an entirely different thing to provide an alternative product
with an
identical user interface.
I just ordered the first prototype boards today, but the software
should
be just a rewrite of what I did for the TIC on Bert's board, with a
lot of
extras thrown in. Not that that doesn't mean a lot of work, of
course.
Bob
From: Tom Van Baak tvb@LeapSecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
Bob,
A couple of different ideas:
- No UI at all. The surplus GPSDO favorites over the years (like the
HP
SmartClock's and Trimble Thunderbolt) work with no UI. Yes, there is
a PC
program you can use to monitor and control it, or even debug it, but
it is
completely optional. Many GPSDO work out of the box. Maybe, like HP,
have
one green LED to say all-is-well.
- A very simple 9600 baud command set that you can use with any
terminal
program. Adding LCD is fine too. But make sure everything on the LCD
is
also available over RS232. Not everyone wants to visually monitor the
LCD
of every piece of gear on their bench; let a PC log and archive all
the
data, check for problems, make plots, etc.
- Mimic enough of HP's SCPI command set so that GPScon and other
tools
like that can be used, transparently. I forget if your GPSDO includes
a
receiver or not.
- Mimic enough of Trimble's TSIP so that LH and other tools like
that can
be used, transparently.
Please write enough code so that the GPSDO, by default, can work "out
of
the box". I'm evaluating a prototype GPSDO right now that requires
all
sorts of user input just to get it started and to keep it going. That
gets
old. My bias is: time spent creating clever adaptive algorithms to
make a
human unnecessary is better than time spent creating an elaborate UI
that
requires a user (and operation manual) and constant monitoring or
adjusting.
/tvb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Stewart" bob@evoria.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:10 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
In an offline communication, I suddenly realized that I hadn't given
any
thought to the user interface for my GPSDO. Is there an accepted
standard
interface for GPSDOs, or is that a murky Microsoft-esque world of
patents
and lawyers?
Bob - AE6RV
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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--
Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr HD 4G LTE wireless tracker while I do other things.
Perhaps the misunderstanding happened when I mentioned two UARTs and two tty interfaces. Using a standard tty interface has nothing to do with how it gets to the monitor hardware once it leaves the board. It's the same physical interface that's used by the receiver boards; whether Adafruit, UT+, LEA-6T, or whatever.
Bob
From: Didier Juges shalimr9@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?
USB may be a common interface to a computer but practically useless to another microcontroller.
Everything can do serial but not everything can do USB master. In the worst case, use a Serial-USB adapter on your PC. There is no such thing as a Serial-USB master interface and never will there be one. USB is PC centric.
Didier KO4BB
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1957PhRv..105..590S
Cheers,
Magnus
On 06/26/2014 08:13 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
Much better than room 137.
BTW, if you run into a physicist someday who can calculate 9192.631770 MHz directly from quantum mechanics, ask them to calculate the other isotopes of cesium. They should be different. But I have no idea how much or little.
/tvb
PS. At EFTF 2014 in Neuchatel, the hotel assigned me room 133, so I feel
on time and stable. :)
Cheers,
Magnus
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