HV
hannu venermo
Sun, Dec 7, 2008 7:43 AM
John M -
great post about the sales tactics.
And I agree on the sales and also on the value aspect.
I have never disparaged the business model or products of these
builders, on the contrary.
The boats are good, and represent value for money, for their target market.
Their target market is obviously older, wealthy, inexperiecned people
who want to "try trawlering" and value seemingly important things like
sub-zero refrigerators and "apparent safety" and "systems" - here,some
irony is intended.
Apparently, they have sold well, and retain their value well - good for
them !
Builders build what the market wants. The market does not want safe,
reliable, dependable, cheap-to-maintain items. It does not. This is in
contrast to what many are saying, but not what people are buying.
What the market wants is what people are buying-
gizmos, "systems", "looks", "Danfoss compressors" ie trademarks etc.
(like "lewmar winches" in sailboats) and other similar stuff.
Therefore, this is what people are sold.
It is not hard, in engineering terms, to build reliable cheap to
maintain stuff.
And, in contrast to what you might think, it4s not expensive. Yachty
stuff is grossly overpriced, but on looks not performance, in general.
About the 1 thing that is reliable and dependable are the transmissions
and engines.
Just read a post from a gentleman who says would not go to sea without
some $$ gizmo (Iridium sat phone)
Some have said the same for radars.
I disagree, so does the commercial world (most coastal trawlers do not
have radar), but let everyone buy whatever they want.
Defining what You want to do, where and how, is the nr1 issue I believe.
If we are going to continue on the PPM thread we should have a consensus
on what we are trying to do;
When this was proposed, few suggestions appeared.
As I prefer to do, I will make suggestions, even though they may not
sometimes by appreciated - or so it seems at times.. (grin)
To cap;
This is a PPM
- I believe the PPM should be cheap, safe, reliable, rugged, economical
to operate.
- I believe it should have all the household comforts, or the provision
of easily and cheaply installing and or adding them.
- I believe it should be easy and cheap to maintain and keep running.
How to do this, I will comment on later.
This affects systems, looks, materials, engineering. Everything stems
from the goal, the mission statement if you will.
Please define what you want in the PPM.
If, and by all means define Your preferences for 1-3, these goals are
accepted, these are my conclusions.
This makes a PPM;
6:1 L/W ratio
Heavy
Standardisation in mechanical engineering.
Steel
Redundancy in mechanical aspects as much as practical
All components are extremely fit for purpose and chosen for long-term
reliability and capacity
John M -
great post about the sales tactics.
And I agree on the sales and also on the value aspect.
I have never disparaged the business model or products of these
builders, on the contrary.
The boats are good, and represent value for money, for their target market.
Their target market is obviously older, wealthy, inexperiecned people
who want to "try trawlering" and value seemingly important things like
sub-zero refrigerators and "apparent safety" and "systems" - here,some
irony is intended.
Apparently, they have sold well, and retain their value well - good for
them !
Builders build what the market wants. The market does not want safe,
reliable, dependable, cheap-to-maintain items. It *does not*. This is in
contrast to what many are saying, but not what people are buying.
What the market wants is what people are buying-
gizmos, "systems", "looks", "Danfoss compressors" ie trademarks etc.
(like "lewmar winches" in sailboats) and other similar stuff.
Therefore, this is what people are sold.
It is not hard, in engineering terms, to build reliable cheap to
maintain stuff.
And, in contrast to what you might think, it4s not expensive. Yachty
stuff is grossly overpriced, but on looks not performance, in general.
About the 1 thing that is reliable and dependable are the transmissions
and engines.
Just read a post from a gentleman who says would not go to sea without
some $$ gizmo (Iridium sat phone)
Some have said the same for radars.
I disagree, so does the commercial world (most coastal trawlers do not
have radar), but let everyone buy whatever they want.
Defining what You want to do, where and how, is the nr1 issue I believe.
If we are going to continue on the PPM thread we should have a consensus
on what we are trying to do;
When this was proposed, few suggestions appeared.
As I prefer to do, I will make suggestions, even though they may not
sometimes by appreciated - or so it seems at times.. (grin)
To cap;
This is a PPM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. I believe the PPM should be cheap, safe, reliable, rugged, economical
to operate.
2. I believe it should have all the household comforts, or the provision
of easily and cheaply installing and or adding them.
3. I believe it should be easy and cheap to maintain and keep running.
How to do this, I will comment on later.
This affects systems, looks, materials, engineering. Everything stems
from the goal, the mission statement if you will.
Please define what you want in the PPM.
If, and by all means define Your preferences for 1-3, these goals are
accepted, these are my conclusions.
This makes a PPM;
-------------------------------------------------
6:1 L/W ratio
Heavy
Standardisation in mechanical engineering.
Steel
Redundancy in mechanical aspects as much as practical
All components are extremely fit for purpose and chosen for long-term
reliability and capacity
RA
Ross Anderson
Sun, Dec 7, 2008 1:39 PM
Hey Hannu, you want to go without radar when coastal? After cruising
now for 60 years gunkholing and passaging for months on end I can tell
you that radar is the one item I do not leave behind. Yep, the
computers, nav programs, stabilizers, water makers, refrigerators,etc
you can chuck over the rail but radar with all that traffic and fog
along the coast - no thanks my hearing ain't what it used to be and I
remember as a boy sailing off the Maine coast the "thump thump thump"
of an old fish trawler crossing our bow in a fog you couldn't see the
bow through. I agree with you on your assessment of most production
"Passage makers" but depart on items that improve safety and ones
sense of humor. Yep, I even receive AIS now. God Bless - Ross 10&2
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:43 AM, hannu venermo hanermo@a2002sl.com wrote:
John M -
great post about the sales tactics.
And I agree on the sales and also on the value aspect.
I have never disparaged the business model or products of these
builders, on the contrary.
The boats are good, and represent value for money, for their target market.
Their target market is obviously older, wealthy, inexperiecned people
who want to "try trawlering" and value seemingly important things like
sub-zero refrigerators and "apparent safety" and "systems" - here,some
irony is intended.
Apparently, they have sold well, and retain their value well - good for
them !
Builders build what the market wants. The market does not want safe,
reliable, dependable, cheap-to-maintain items. It does not. This is in
contrast to what many are saying, but not what people are buying.
What the market wants is what people are buying-
gizmos, "systems", "looks", "Danfoss compressors" ie trademarks etc.
(like "lewmar winches" in sailboats) and other similar stuff.
Therefore, this is what people are sold.
It is not hard, in engineering terms, to build reliable cheap to
maintain stuff.
And, in contrast to what you might think, it4s not expensive. Yachty
stuff is grossly overpriced, but on looks not performance, in general.
About the 1 thing that is reliable and dependable are the transmissions
and engines.
Just read a post from a gentleman who says would not go to sea without
some $$ gizmo (Iridium sat phone)
Some have said the same for radars.
I disagree, so does the commercial world (most coastal trawlers do not
have radar), but let everyone buy whatever they want.
Defining what You want to do, where and how, is the nr1 issue I believe.
If we are going to continue on the PPM thread we should have a consensus
on what we are trying to do;
When this was proposed, few suggestions appeared.
As I prefer to do, I will make suggestions, even though they may not
sometimes by appreciated - or so it seems at times.. (grin)
To cap;
This is a PPM
- I believe the PPM should be cheap, safe, reliable, rugged, economical
to operate.
- I believe it should have all the household comforts, or the provision
of easily and cheaply installing and or adding them.
- I believe it should be easy and cheap to maintain and keep running.
How to do this, I will comment on later.
This affects systems, looks, materials, engineering. Everything stems
from the goal, the mission statement if you will.
Please define what you want in the PPM.
If, and by all means define Your preferences for 1-3, these goals are
accepted, these are my conclusions.
This makes a PPM;
6:1 L/W ratio
Heavy
Standardisation in mechanical engineering.
Steel
Redundancy in mechanical aspects as much as practical
All components are extremely fit for purpose and chosen for long-term
reliability and capacity
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
Hey Hannu, you want to go without radar when coastal? After cruising
now for 60 years gunkholing and passaging for months on end I can tell
you that radar is the one item I do not leave behind. Yep, the
computers, nav programs, stabilizers, water makers, refrigerators,etc
you can chuck over the rail but radar with all that traffic and fog
along the coast - no thanks my hearing ain't what it used to be and I
remember as a boy sailing off the Maine coast the "thump thump thump"
of an old fish trawler crossing our bow in a fog you couldn't see the
bow through. I agree with you on your assessment of most production
"Passage makers" but depart on items that improve safety and ones
sense of humor. Yep, I even receive AIS now. God Bless - Ross 10&2
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:43 AM, hannu venermo <hanermo@a2002sl.com> wrote:
> John M -
> great post about the sales tactics.
> And I agree on the sales and also on the value aspect.
>
> I have never disparaged the business model or products of these
> builders, on the contrary.
> The boats are good, and represent value for money, for their target market.
>
> Their target market is obviously older, wealthy, inexperiecned people
> who want to "try trawlering" and value seemingly important things like
> sub-zero refrigerators and "apparent safety" and "systems" - here,some
> irony is intended.
> Apparently, they have sold well, and retain their value well - good for
> them !
>
> Builders build what the market wants. The market does not want safe,
> reliable, dependable, cheap-to-maintain items. It *does not*. This is in
> contrast to what many are saying, but not what people are buying.
> What the market wants is what people are buying-
> gizmos, "systems", "looks", "Danfoss compressors" ie trademarks etc.
> (like "lewmar winches" in sailboats) and other similar stuff.
> Therefore, this is what people are sold.
>
> It is not hard, in engineering terms, to build reliable cheap to
> maintain stuff.
> And, in contrast to what you might think, it4s not expensive. Yachty
> stuff is grossly overpriced, but on looks not performance, in general.
> About the 1 thing that is reliable and dependable are the transmissions
> and engines.
>
> Just read a post from a gentleman who says would not go to sea without
> some $$ gizmo (Iridium sat phone)
> Some have said the same for radars.
> I disagree, so does the commercial world (most coastal trawlers do not
> have radar), but let everyone buy whatever they want.
>
> Defining what You want to do, where and how, is the nr1 issue I believe.
> If we are going to continue on the PPM thread we should have a consensus
> on what we are trying to do;
> When this was proposed, few suggestions appeared.
>
> As I prefer to do, I will make suggestions, even though they may not
> sometimes by appreciated - or so it seems at times.. (grin)
>
> To cap;
> This is a PPM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1. I believe the PPM should be cheap, safe, reliable, rugged, economical
> to operate.
> 2. I believe it should have all the household comforts, or the provision
> of easily and cheaply installing and or adding them.
> 3. I believe it should be easy and cheap to maintain and keep running.
>
> How to do this, I will comment on later.
> This affects systems, looks, materials, engineering. Everything stems
> from the goal, the mission statement if you will.
>
> Please define what you want in the PPM.
> If, and by all means define Your preferences for 1-3, these goals are
> accepted, these are my conclusions.
>
> This makes a PPM;
> -------------------------------------------------
> 6:1 L/W ratio
> Heavy
> Standardisation in mechanical engineering.
> Steel
> Redundancy in mechanical aspects as much as practical
> All components are extremely fit for purpose and chosen for long-term
> reliability and capacity
> _______________________________________________
> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
>
> To unsubscribe send email to
> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
>
> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
RA
Ross Anderson
Sun, Dec 7, 2008 1:42 PM
Hannu, my apologies, after re-reading the post I see you were talking
about others! God Bless - Ross 10&2
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Ross Anderson 10and2@gmail.com wrote:
Hey Hannu, you want to go without radar when coastal? After cruising
now for 60 years gunkholing and passaging for months on end I can tell
you that radar is the one item I do not leave behind. Yep, the
computers, nav programs, stabilizers, water makers, refrigerators,etc
you can chuck over the rail but radar with all that traffic and fog
along the coast - no thanks my hearing ain't what it used to be and I
remember as a boy sailing off the Maine coast the "thump thump thump"
of an old fish trawler crossing our bow in a fog you couldn't see the
bow through. I agree with you on your assessment of most production
"Passage makers" but depart on items that improve safety and ones
sense of humor. Yep, I even receive AIS now. God Bless - Ross 10&2
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:43 AM, hannu venermo hanermo@a2002sl.com wrote:
John M -
great post about the sales tactics.
And I agree on the sales and also on the value aspect.
I have never disparaged the business model or products of these
builders, on the contrary.
The boats are good, and represent value for money, for their target market.
Their target market is obviously older, wealthy, inexperiecned people
who want to "try trawlering" and value seemingly important things like
sub-zero refrigerators and "apparent safety" and "systems" - here,some
irony is intended.
Apparently, they have sold well, and retain their value well - good for
them !
Builders build what the market wants. The market does not want safe,
reliable, dependable, cheap-to-maintain items. It does not. This is in
contrast to what many are saying, but not what people are buying.
What the market wants is what people are buying-
gizmos, "systems", "looks", "Danfoss compressors" ie trademarks etc.
(like "lewmar winches" in sailboats) and other similar stuff.
Therefore, this is what people are sold.
It is not hard, in engineering terms, to build reliable cheap to
maintain stuff.
And, in contrast to what you might think, it4s not expensive. Yachty
stuff is grossly overpriced, but on looks not performance, in general.
About the 1 thing that is reliable and dependable are the transmissions
and engines.
Just read a post from a gentleman who says would not go to sea without
some $$ gizmo (Iridium sat phone)
Some have said the same for radars.
I disagree, so does the commercial world (most coastal trawlers do not
have radar), but let everyone buy whatever they want.
Defining what You want to do, where and how, is the nr1 issue I believe.
If we are going to continue on the PPM thread we should have a consensus
on what we are trying to do;
When this was proposed, few suggestions appeared.
As I prefer to do, I will make suggestions, even though they may not
sometimes by appreciated - or so it seems at times.. (grin)
To cap;
This is a PPM
- I believe the PPM should be cheap, safe, reliable, rugged, economical
to operate.
- I believe it should have all the household comforts, or the provision
of easily and cheaply installing and or adding them.
- I believe it should be easy and cheap to maintain and keep running.
How to do this, I will comment on later.
This affects systems, looks, materials, engineering. Everything stems
from the goal, the mission statement if you will.
Please define what you want in the PPM.
If, and by all means define Your preferences for 1-3, these goals are
accepted, these are my conclusions.
This makes a PPM;
6:1 L/W ratio
Heavy
Standardisation in mechanical engineering.
Steel
Redundancy in mechanical aspects as much as practical
All components are extremely fit for purpose and chosen for long-term
reliability and capacity
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
Hannu, my apologies, after re-reading the post I see you were talking
about others! God Bless - Ross 10&2
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Ross Anderson <10and2@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Hannu, you want to go without radar when coastal? After cruising
> now for 60 years gunkholing and passaging for months on end I can tell
> you that radar is the one item I do not leave behind. Yep, the
> computers, nav programs, stabilizers, water makers, refrigerators,etc
> you can chuck over the rail but radar with all that traffic and fog
> along the coast - no thanks my hearing ain't what it used to be and I
> remember as a boy sailing off the Maine coast the "thump thump thump"
> of an old fish trawler crossing our bow in a fog you couldn't see the
> bow through. I agree with you on your assessment of most production
> "Passage makers" but depart on items that improve safety and ones
> sense of humor. Yep, I even receive AIS now. God Bless - Ross 10&2
>
> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:43 AM, hannu venermo <hanermo@a2002sl.com> wrote:
>> John M -
>> great post about the sales tactics.
>> And I agree on the sales and also on the value aspect.
>>
>> I have never disparaged the business model or products of these
>> builders, on the contrary.
>> The boats are good, and represent value for money, for their target market.
>>
>> Their target market is obviously older, wealthy, inexperiecned people
>> who want to "try trawlering" and value seemingly important things like
>> sub-zero refrigerators and "apparent safety" and "systems" - here,some
>> irony is intended.
>> Apparently, they have sold well, and retain their value well - good for
>> them !
>>
>> Builders build what the market wants. The market does not want safe,
>> reliable, dependable, cheap-to-maintain items. It *does not*. This is in
>> contrast to what many are saying, but not what people are buying.
>> What the market wants is what people are buying-
>> gizmos, "systems", "looks", "Danfoss compressors" ie trademarks etc.
>> (like "lewmar winches" in sailboats) and other similar stuff.
>> Therefore, this is what people are sold.
>>
>> It is not hard, in engineering terms, to build reliable cheap to
>> maintain stuff.
>> And, in contrast to what you might think, it4s not expensive. Yachty
>> stuff is grossly overpriced, but on looks not performance, in general.
>> About the 1 thing that is reliable and dependable are the transmissions
>> and engines.
>>
>> Just read a post from a gentleman who says would not go to sea without
>> some $$ gizmo (Iridium sat phone)
>> Some have said the same for radars.
>> I disagree, so does the commercial world (most coastal trawlers do not
>> have radar), but let everyone buy whatever they want.
>>
>> Defining what You want to do, where and how, is the nr1 issue I believe.
>> If we are going to continue on the PPM thread we should have a consensus
>> on what we are trying to do;
>> When this was proposed, few suggestions appeared.
>>
>> As I prefer to do, I will make suggestions, even though they may not
>> sometimes by appreciated - or so it seems at times.. (grin)
>>
>> To cap;
>> This is a PPM
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 1. I believe the PPM should be cheap, safe, reliable, rugged, economical
>> to operate.
>> 2. I believe it should have all the household comforts, or the provision
>> of easily and cheaply installing and or adding them.
>> 3. I believe it should be easy and cheap to maintain and keep running.
>>
>> How to do this, I will comment on later.
>> This affects systems, looks, materials, engineering. Everything stems
>> from the goal, the mission statement if you will.
>>
>> Please define what you want in the PPM.
>> If, and by all means define Your preferences for 1-3, these goals are
>> accepted, these are my conclusions.
>>
>> This makes a PPM;
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> 6:1 L/W ratio
>> Heavy
>> Standardisation in mechanical engineering.
>> Steel
>> Redundancy in mechanical aspects as much as practical
>> All components are extremely fit for purpose and chosen for long-term
>> reliability and capacity
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
>>
>> To unsubscribe send email to
>> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
>> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
>>
>> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
KW
Ken Williams
Sun, Dec 7, 2008 4:21 PM
Hannu: There is much I disagree with in your last posting.
You said: "... Their target market is obviously older, wealthy,
inexperienced people who want to "try trawlering" and value seemingly
important things like sub-zero refrigerators and "apparent safety" and
"systems" - here, some irony is intended..."
I'm assuming you are referring to the production boats, such as Nordhavn. As
a Nordhavn owner, I will plead guilty to "older", and perhaps even
"wealthy", but greatly dispute that Nordhavn owners fit into any kind of
inexperienced category. Nordhavn recently captured some stats on Nordhavn
owners. The average miles run per boat was 14,394 nautical miles. Even the
littlest boats, the N35, averaged 9,800nm. There are certainly some newbie
owners, but they don't stay newbies very long. I would wager that the
percent of Nordhavns with captain's licenses is consistent with, or
outweighs, any other category. I would also think that the number of miles
run, with the small number of incidents, in virtually every major of body in
the world, gives statistical evidence that the safety systems are far more
than "apparent safety."
You said: "... Just read a post from a gentleman who says would not go to
sea without some $$ gizmo (Iridium sat phone) Some have said the same for
radars. I disagree, so does the commercial world (most coastal trawlers do
not have radar), but let everyone buy whatever they want..."
Radar is not optional on a trawler. I understand that there are plenty of
people without it, but, were these people standing before me, I would argue
passionately that they are going to get into trouble sooner or later without
it. My recollection from Captain's class is that there is even a question on
the Master's exam asking "What is the most important safety item on a
boat?", and the answer is "radar". I would also argue that a sat phone is
not purely a "high bucks gizmo" on any serious passage maker. If something
ever goes wrong off shore, and you wind up in a raft, the sat phone will
look pretty good in your ditch bag. As nice as SSB is, it can't be counted
on for fast, clear, communications in a hurry when you need to get a message
out.
I still think the whole "perfect passagemaker discussion" is somewhat off
base. I contend that there is no one perfect passagemaker, and that the best
the group can do is to discuss the pros and cons of individual systems, and
recognize that there may be better systems at one price point than another.
I would contend that the "perfect passagemaker" for Bill Gates, might look
different than the "perfect passagemaker" for a retired postal worker. For
every system, there are multiple options available at different price
points. I would propose that there is a way to discuss the options
available, without disparaging either the people at the top of bottom of the
economic scale or those who ran successful businesses. I worry that the
discussion could become "What's the cheapest boat that can move from point A
to point B in relative safety?" Boat manufacturers would love it if it were
that easy, but they have to make multiple models, and then customize them,
because every buyer has a unique budget, and a unique set of needs.
-Ken Williams
Nordhavn 68, Sans Souci
www.kensblog.com
Hannu: There is much I disagree with in your last posting.
You said: "... Their target market is obviously older, wealthy,
inexperienced people who want to "try trawlering" and value seemingly
important things like sub-zero refrigerators and "apparent safety" and
"systems" - here, some irony is intended..."
I'm assuming you are referring to the production boats, such as Nordhavn. As
a Nordhavn owner, I will plead guilty to "older", and perhaps even
"wealthy", but greatly dispute that Nordhavn owners fit into any kind of
inexperienced category. Nordhavn recently captured some stats on Nordhavn
owners. The average miles run per boat was 14,394 nautical miles. Even the
littlest boats, the N35, averaged 9,800nm. There are certainly some newbie
owners, but they don't stay newbies very long. I would wager that the
percent of Nordhavns with captain's licenses is consistent with, or
outweighs, any other category. I would also think that the number of miles
run, with the small number of incidents, in virtually every major of body in
the world, gives statistical evidence that the safety systems are far more
than "apparent safety."
You said: "... Just read a post from a gentleman who says would not go to
sea without some $$ gizmo (Iridium sat phone) Some have said the same for
radars. I disagree, so does the commercial world (most coastal trawlers do
not have radar), but let everyone buy whatever they want..."
Radar is not optional on a trawler. I understand that there are plenty of
people without it, but, were these people standing before me, I would argue
passionately that they are going to get into trouble sooner or later without
it. My recollection from Captain's class is that there is even a question on
the Master's exam asking "What is the most important safety item on a
boat?", and the answer is "radar". I would also argue that a sat phone is
not purely a "high bucks gizmo" on any serious passage maker. If something
ever goes wrong off shore, and you wind up in a raft, the sat phone will
look pretty good in your ditch bag. As nice as SSB is, it can't be counted
on for fast, clear, communications in a hurry when you need to get a message
out.
I still think the whole "perfect passagemaker discussion" is somewhat off
base. I contend that there is no one perfect passagemaker, and that the best
the group can do is to discuss the pros and cons of individual systems, and
recognize that there may be better systems at one price point than another.
I would contend that the "perfect passagemaker" for Bill Gates, might look
different than the "perfect passagemaker" for a retired postal worker. For
every system, there are multiple options available at different price
points. I would propose that there is a way to discuss the options
available, without disparaging either the people at the top of bottom of the
economic scale or those who ran successful businesses. I worry that the
discussion could become "What's the cheapest boat that can move from point A
to point B in relative safety?" Boat manufacturers would love it if it were
that easy, but they have to make multiple models, and then customize them,
because every buyer has a unique budget, and a unique set of needs.
-Ken Williams
Nordhavn 68, Sans Souci
www.kensblog.com
JM
John Marshall
Sun, Dec 7, 2008 5:05 PM
Hannu, et.al.
I was trying to make the same point as Ken about high usage of these
production trawlers. Every Nordhavn owner I know is planning on
spending many months each year on the water, whether coastal or blue-
water. These boats are always in motion. And the reason folks like
myself get to participate in these discussions is because we have
"gizmos" that let us stay on the Internet while at sea instead of
sitting at home talking about trawlering.
I happen to know of a group of Nordhavns, full of "gizmos", who are
going to leave Seattle this spring to cross the Bering Sea and explore
Siberia. Why? Because they'd taken their boats most everywhere else
and want to open new cruising grounds.
Yes, older and wealthier is the model, and its true that some of us
(like my wife and I) got into this with little experience. But we're
not inexperienced now. After cruising the last 13 out of 20 months in
our Nordhavn, in all kinds of weather and seas, we're not exactly
newbies anymore. We'll also be out on the boat for 75% of this coming
year. We maintain the boat ourselves, and we'll be safe and have all
the comforts of home every step of the way.
The point is that an inexpensive trawler is just fine for many folks,
and it opens the door for those who can't invest large sums. I don't
disparage that... I think its fantastic, and hope to meet such boats
and their owners in far-away places. Once you are weeks away from a
marina, the cost of the boat makes little difference. The experiences
are common and shared.
But I'd rather you didn't continuously disparage people who have
decided to spend more money on their boats, or imply that they're less
safe or whatever. I'm not so sure I'd want to be traveling on your
concept of a radar-less passagemaker approaching the fog-shrouded
Siberian coast, with the gathering storms of the Bering Sea behind me.
John
On Dec 7, 2008, at 8:21 AM, Ken Williams wrote:
Hannu: There is much I disagree with in your last posting.
You said: "... Their target market is obviously older, wealthy,
inexperienced people who want to "try trawlering" and value seemingly
important things like sub-zero refrigerators and "apparent safety" and
"systems" - here, some irony is intended..."
I'm assuming you are referring to the production boats, such as
Nordhavn. As
a Nordhavn owner, I will plead guilty to "older", and perhaps even
"wealthy", but greatly dispute that Nordhavn owners fit into any
kind of
inexperienced category. Nordhavn recently captured some stats on
Nordhavn
owners. The average miles run per boat was 14,394 nautical miles.
Even the
littlest boats, the N35, averaged 9,800nm. There are certainly some
newbie
owners, but they don't stay newbies very long. I would wager that the
percent of Nordhavns with captain's licenses is consistent with, or
outweighs, any other category. I would also think that the number of
miles
run, with the small number of incidents, in virtually every major of
body in
the world, gives statistical evidence that the safety systems are
far more
than "apparent safety."
You said: "... Just read a post from a gentleman who says would not
go to
sea without some $$ gizmo (Iridium sat phone) Some have said the
same for
radars. I disagree, so does the commercial world (most coastal
trawlers do
not have radar), but let everyone buy whatever they want..."
Radar is not optional on a trawler. I understand that there are
plenty of
people without it, but, were these people standing before me, I
would argue
passionately that they are going to get into trouble sooner or later
without
it. My recollection from Captain's class is that there is even a
question on
the Master's exam asking "What is the most important safety item on a
boat?", and the answer is "radar". I would also argue that a sat
phone is
not purely a "high bucks gizmo" on any serious passage maker. If
something
ever goes wrong off shore, and you wind up in a raft, the sat phone
will
look pretty good in your ditch bag. As nice as SSB is, it can't be
counted
on for fast, clear, communications in a hurry when you need to get a
message
out.
I still think the whole "perfect passagemaker discussion" is
somewhat off
base. I contend that there is no one perfect passagemaker, and that
the best
the group can do is to discuss the pros and cons of individual
systems, and
recognize that there may be better systems at one price point than
another.
I would contend that the "perfect passagemaker" for Bill Gates,
might look
different than the "perfect passagemaker" for a retired postal
worker. For
every system, there are multiple options available at different price
points. I would propose that there is a way to discuss the options
available, without disparaging either the people at the top of
bottom of the
economic scale or those who ran successful businesses. I worry that
the
discussion could become "What's the cheapest boat that can move from
point A
to point B in relative safety?" Boat manufacturers would love it if
it were
that easy, but they have to make multiple models, and then customize
them,
because every buyer has a unique budget, and a unique set of needs.
-Ken Williams
Nordhavn 68, Sans Souci
www.kensblog.com
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
Hannu, et.al.
I was trying to make the same point as Ken about high usage of these
production trawlers. Every Nordhavn owner I know is planning on
spending many months each year on the water, whether coastal or blue-
water. These boats are always in motion. And the reason folks like
myself get to participate in these discussions is because we have
"gizmos" that let us stay on the Internet while at sea instead of
sitting at home talking about trawlering.
I happen to know of a group of Nordhavns, full of "gizmos", who are
going to leave Seattle this spring to cross the Bering Sea and explore
Siberia. Why? Because they'd taken their boats most everywhere else
and want to open new cruising grounds.
Yes, older and wealthier is the model, and its true that some of us
(like my wife and I) got into this with little experience. But we're
not inexperienced now. After cruising the last 13 out of 20 months in
our Nordhavn, in all kinds of weather and seas, we're not exactly
newbies anymore. We'll also be out on the boat for 75% of this coming
year. We maintain the boat ourselves, and we'll be safe and have all
the comforts of home every step of the way.
The point is that an inexpensive trawler is just fine for many folks,
and it opens the door for those who can't invest large sums. I don't
disparage that... I think its fantastic, and hope to meet such boats
and their owners in far-away places. Once you are weeks away from a
marina, the cost of the boat makes little difference. The experiences
are common and shared.
But I'd rather you didn't continuously disparage people who have
decided to spend more money on their boats, or imply that they're less
safe or whatever. I'm not so sure I'd want to be traveling on your
concept of a radar-less passagemaker approaching the fog-shrouded
Siberian coast, with the gathering storms of the Bering Sea behind me.
John
On Dec 7, 2008, at 8:21 AM, Ken Williams wrote:
> Hannu: There is much I disagree with in your last posting.
>
> You said: "... Their target market is obviously older, wealthy,
> inexperienced people who want to "try trawlering" and value seemingly
> important things like sub-zero refrigerators and "apparent safety" and
> "systems" - here, some irony is intended..."
>
> I'm assuming you are referring to the production boats, such as
> Nordhavn. As
> a Nordhavn owner, I will plead guilty to "older", and perhaps even
> "wealthy", but greatly dispute that Nordhavn owners fit into any
> kind of
> inexperienced category. Nordhavn recently captured some stats on
> Nordhavn
> owners. The average miles run per boat was 14,394 nautical miles.
> Even the
> littlest boats, the N35, averaged 9,800nm. There are certainly some
> newbie
> owners, but they don't stay newbies very long. I would wager that the
> percent of Nordhavns with captain's licenses is consistent with, or
> outweighs, any other category. I would also think that the number of
> miles
> run, with the small number of incidents, in virtually every major of
> body in
> the world, gives statistical evidence that the safety systems are
> far more
> than "apparent safety."
>
> You said: "... Just read a post from a gentleman who says would not
> go to
> sea without some $$ gizmo (Iridium sat phone) Some have said the
> same for
> radars. I disagree, so does the commercial world (most coastal
> trawlers do
> not have radar), but let everyone buy whatever they want..."
>
> Radar is not optional on a trawler. I understand that there are
> plenty of
> people without it, but, were these people standing before me, I
> would argue
> passionately that they are going to get into trouble sooner or later
> without
> it. My recollection from Captain's class is that there is even a
> question on
> the Master's exam asking "What is the most important safety item on a
> boat?", and the answer is "radar". I would also argue that a sat
> phone is
> not purely a "high bucks gizmo" on any serious passage maker. If
> something
> ever goes wrong off shore, and you wind up in a raft, the sat phone
> will
> look pretty good in your ditch bag. As nice as SSB is, it can't be
> counted
> on for fast, clear, communications in a hurry when you need to get a
> message
> out.
>
> I still think the whole "perfect passagemaker discussion" is
> somewhat off
> base. I contend that there is no one perfect passagemaker, and that
> the best
> the group can do is to discuss the pros and cons of individual
> systems, and
> recognize that there may be better systems at one price point than
> another.
> I would contend that the "perfect passagemaker" for Bill Gates,
> might look
> different than the "perfect passagemaker" for a retired postal
> worker. For
> every system, there are multiple options available at different price
> points. I would propose that there is a way to discuss the options
> available, without disparaging either the people at the top of
> bottom of the
> economic scale or those who ran successful businesses. I worry that
> the
> discussion could become "What's the cheapest boat that can move from
> point A
> to point B in relative safety?" Boat manufacturers would love it if
> it were
> that easy, but they have to make multiple models, and then customize
> them,
> because every buyer has a unique budget, and a unique set of needs.
>
> -Ken Williams
> Nordhavn 68, Sans Souci
> www.kensblog.com
> _______________________________________________
> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
>
> To unsubscribe send email to
> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
>
> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
> Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
VC
Valerie Creighton
Sun, Dec 7, 2008 6:07 PM
On Dec 7, 2008, at 9:05 AM, John Marshall wrote:
But I'd rather you didn't continuously disparage people...
And I, as a lurker whose opinion probably means diddly-squat to any of
you, second that.
I'll bet many of you would agree that the one of the best things about
cruising is its community of people. Never in our lives have we felt
so immediately embraced by such a wide variety of wonderful people
from all over the globe. And it levels the playing field: sail or
power, modest means or mega-bucks, we have found the folks we meet
while cruising, from busy marinas to remote anchorages, to be
convivial, respectful, gracious, and go out of their way to volunteer
a helpful hand. When we convene socially, a happy and animated
discussion about boats, cruising, systems on boats etc always ensues.
Simply because we are coming together around this lifestyle of
cruising which we all love. The camaraderie is just phenomenal.
One wouldn't know it from many of the posts on this list though, and
the sour grapes that continually bubble up here. The reason for this
is a mystery to me. But this forum is such a great resource when we
remember what brings us together here, instead of our differences, or
who chose which brand of whatever and what they paid for it!
Valerie Creighton
Pax Nautica
Selene 53
On Dec 7, 2008, at 9:05 AM, John Marshall wrote:
>
> But I'd rather you didn't continuously disparage people...
And I, as a lurker whose opinion probably means diddly-squat to any of
you, second that.
I'll bet many of you would agree that the one of the best things about
cruising is its community of people. Never in our lives have we felt
so immediately embraced by such a wide variety of wonderful people
from all over the globe. And it levels the playing field: sail or
power, modest means or mega-bucks, we have found the folks we meet
while cruising, from busy marinas to remote anchorages, to be
convivial, respectful, gracious, and go out of their way to volunteer
a helpful hand. When we convene socially, a happy and animated
discussion about boats, cruising, systems on boats etc always ensues.
Simply because we are coming together around this lifestyle of
cruising which we all love. The camaraderie is just phenomenal.
One wouldn't know it from many of the posts on this list though, and
the sour grapes that continually bubble up here. The reason for this
is a mystery to me. But this forum is such a great resource when we
remember what brings us together here, instead of our differences, or
who chose which brand of whatever and what they paid for it!
Valerie Creighton
Pax Nautica
Selene 53
RR
Ron Rogers
Sun, Dec 7, 2008 7:05 PM
At least the postal worker would already have his AK-47 for pirates!
Ron Rogers
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Williams
I would contend that the "perfect passagemaker" for Bill Gates, might look
different than the "perfect passagemaker" for a retired postal worker.
At least the postal worker would already have his AK-47 for pirates!
Ron Rogers
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Williams
I would contend that the "perfect passagemaker" for Bill Gates, might look
different than the "perfect passagemaker" for a retired postal worker.
JM
John Marshall
Sun, Dec 7, 2008 7:34 PM
Amen, Valerie! You've captured what should be out motto here:
Camaraderie.
What is interesting is that many differences result in arguments here,
but on the water, those same differences are celebrated and discussed
with great humor and grace over a beer or three.
(Once in a remote anchorage, the only benefit that everyone agrees
about the bigger "gizmo" boat is that it usually has more cold beer in
the fridge. But when a gale starts blowing like stink at O-Dark-30,
everybody's an equal, and the only "gizmo" that matters is the very
low-tech size of one's anchor and how well you set it.)
I guess if we're going to draw the line between "Us" and "Them", I'd
prefer to do it at the level of a professionally crewed passagemaker
versus an owner/captain/crew. So while the postal worker is very
welcome, I'm sorry, we have to draw a line: Bill Gates, you're out.
Otherwise, we all have a LOT more in common than differences --
mainly, that the ocean is a lot bigger than any of our little boats.
John
On Dec 7, 2008, at 10:07 AM, Valerie Creighton wrote:
On Dec 7, 2008, at 9:05 AM, John Marshall wrote:
But I'd rather you didn't continuously disparage people...
And I, as a lurker whose opinion probably means diddly-squat to any of
you, second that.
I'll bet many of you would agree that the one of the best things about
cruising is its community of people. Never in our lives have we felt
so immediately embraced by such a wide variety of wonderful people
from all over the globe. And it levels the playing field: sail or
power, modest means or mega-bucks, we have found the folks we meet
while cruising, from busy marinas to remote anchorages, to be
convivial, respectful, gracious, and go out of their way to volunteer
a helpful hand. When we convene socially, a happy and animated
discussion about boats, cruising, systems on boats etc always ensues.
Simply because we are coming together around this lifestyle of
cruising which we all love. The camaraderie is just phenomenal.
One wouldn't know it from many of the posts on this list though, and
the sour grapes that continually bubble up here. The reason for this
is a mystery to me. But this forum is such a great resource when we
remember what brings us together here, instead of our differences, or
who chose which brand of whatever and what they paid for it!
Valerie Creighton
Pax Nautica
Selene 53
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
Amen, Valerie! You've captured what should be out motto here:
Camaraderie.
What is interesting is that many differences result in arguments here,
but on the water, those same differences are celebrated and discussed
with great humor and grace over a beer or three.
(Once in a remote anchorage, the only benefit that everyone agrees
about the bigger "gizmo" boat is that it usually has more cold beer in
the fridge. But when a gale starts blowing like stink at O-Dark-30,
everybody's an equal, and the only "gizmo" that matters is the very
low-tech size of one's anchor and how well you set it.)
I guess if we're going to draw the line between "Us" and "Them", I'd
prefer to do it at the level of a professionally crewed passagemaker
versus an owner/captain/crew. So while the postal worker is very
welcome, I'm sorry, we have to draw a line: Bill Gates, you're out.
Otherwise, we all have a LOT more in common than differences --
mainly, that the ocean is a lot bigger than any of our little boats.
John
On Dec 7, 2008, at 10:07 AM, Valerie Creighton wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2008, at 9:05 AM, John Marshall wrote:
>
>>
>> But I'd rather you didn't continuously disparage people...
>
> And I, as a lurker whose opinion probably means diddly-squat to any of
> you, second that.
>
> I'll bet many of you would agree that the one of the best things about
> cruising is its community of people. Never in our lives have we felt
> so immediately embraced by such a wide variety of wonderful people
> from all over the globe. And it levels the playing field: sail or
> power, modest means or mega-bucks, we have found the folks we meet
> while cruising, from busy marinas to remote anchorages, to be
> convivial, respectful, gracious, and go out of their way to volunteer
> a helpful hand. When we convene socially, a happy and animated
> discussion about boats, cruising, systems on boats etc always ensues.
> Simply because we are coming together around this lifestyle of
> cruising which we all love. The camaraderie is just phenomenal.
>
> One wouldn't know it from many of the posts on this list though, and
> the sour grapes that continually bubble up here. The reason for this
> is a mystery to me. But this forum is such a great resource when we
> remember what brings us together here, instead of our differences, or
> who chose which brand of whatever and what they paid for it!
>
> Valerie Creighton
> Pax Nautica
> Selene 53
> _______________________________________________
> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
>
> To unsubscribe send email to
> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
>
> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
> Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
KF
Kristine Fletcher
Sun, Dec 7, 2008 7:49 PM
Here, here. Valerie.
Danny Fletcher
Nordhavn 46
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:34 PM, John Marshall johnamar1101@gmail.comwrote:
Amen, Valerie! You've captured what should be out motto here:
Camaraderie.
What is interesting is that many differences result in arguments here,
but on the water, those same differences are celebrated and discussed
with great humor and grace over a beer or three.
(Once in a remote anchorage, the only benefit that everyone agrees
about the bigger "gizmo" boat is that it usually has more cold beer in
the fridge. But when a gale starts blowing like stink at O-Dark-30,
everybody's an equal, and the only "gizmo" that matters is the very
low-tech size of one's anchor and how well you set it.)
I guess if we're going to draw the line between "Us" and "Them", I'd
prefer to do it at the level of a professionally crewed passagemaker
versus an owner/captain/crew. So while the postal worker is very
welcome, I'm sorry, we have to draw a line: Bill Gates, you're out.
Otherwise, we all have a LOT more in common than differences --
mainly, that the ocean is a lot bigger than any of our little boats.
John
On Dec 7, 2008, at 10:07 AM, Valerie Creighton wrote:
On Dec 7, 2008, at 9:05 AM, John Marshall wrote:
But I'd rather you didn't continuously disparage people...
And I, as a lurker whose opinion probably means diddly-squat to any of
you, second that.
I'll bet many of you would agree that the one of the best things about
cruising is its community of people. Never in our lives have we felt
so immediately embraced by such a wide variety of wonderful people
from all over the globe. And it levels the playing field: sail or
power, modest means or mega-bucks, we have found the folks we meet
while cruising, from busy marinas to remote anchorages, to be
convivial, respectful, gracious, and go out of their way to volunteer
a helpful hand. When we convene socially, a happy and animated
discussion about boats, cruising, systems on boats etc always ensues.
Simply because we are coming together around this lifestyle of
cruising which we all love. The camaraderie is just phenomenal.
One wouldn't know it from many of the posts on this list though, and
the sour grapes that continually bubble up here. The reason for this
is a mystery to me. But this forum is such a great resource when we
remember what brings us together here, instead of our differences, or
who chose which brand of whatever and what they paid for it!
Valerie Creighton
Pax Nautica
Selene 53
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
--
Danny and Kris Fletcher
Nordhavn 4669
361-533-3373(Cell)
Here, here. Valerie.
Danny Fletcher
Nordhavn 46
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:34 PM, John Marshall <johnamar1101@gmail.com>wrote:
> Amen, Valerie! You've captured what should be out motto here:
> Camaraderie.
>
> What is interesting is that many differences result in arguments here,
> but on the water, those same differences are celebrated and discussed
> with great humor and grace over a beer or three.
>
> (Once in a remote anchorage, the only benefit that everyone agrees
> about the bigger "gizmo" boat is that it usually has more cold beer in
> the fridge. But when a gale starts blowing like stink at O-Dark-30,
> everybody's an equal, and the only "gizmo" that matters is the very
> low-tech size of one's anchor and how well you set it.)
>
> I guess if we're going to draw the line between "Us" and "Them", I'd
> prefer to do it at the level of a professionally crewed passagemaker
> versus an owner/captain/crew. So while the postal worker is very
> welcome, I'm sorry, we have to draw a line: Bill Gates, you're out.
>
> Otherwise, we all have a LOT more in common than differences --
> mainly, that the ocean is a lot bigger than any of our little boats.
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2008, at 10:07 AM, Valerie Creighton wrote:
>
> > On Dec 7, 2008, at 9:05 AM, John Marshall wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> But I'd rather you didn't continuously disparage people...
> >
> > And I, as a lurker whose opinion probably means diddly-squat to any of
> > you, second that.
> >
> > I'll bet many of you would agree that the one of the best things about
> > cruising is its community of people. Never in our lives have we felt
> > so immediately embraced by such a wide variety of wonderful people
> > from all over the globe. And it levels the playing field: sail or
> > power, modest means or mega-bucks, we have found the folks we meet
> > while cruising, from busy marinas to remote anchorages, to be
> > convivial, respectful, gracious, and go out of their way to volunteer
> > a helpful hand. When we convene socially, a happy and animated
> > discussion about boats, cruising, systems on boats etc always ensues.
> > Simply because we are coming together around this lifestyle of
> > cruising which we all love. The camaraderie is just phenomenal.
> >
> > One wouldn't know it from many of the posts on this list though, and
> > the sour grapes that continually bubble up here. The reason for this
> > is a mystery to me. But this forum is such a great resource when we
> > remember what brings us together here, instead of our differences, or
> > who chose which brand of whatever and what they paid for it!
> >
> > Valerie Creighton
> > Pax Nautica
> > Selene 53
> > _______________________________________________
> > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
> >
> > To unsubscribe send email to
> > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
> > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
> >
> > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
> > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
> _______________________________________________
> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
>
> To unsubscribe send email to
> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
>
> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
> Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
>
>
--
Danny and Kris Fletcher
Nordhavn 4669
361-533-3373(Cell)
B
bill
Sun, Dec 7, 2008 7:55 PM
John Marshall,
In a recent post to this list you estimated an extra daily hour of genset run
time due to sub zero appliances. Also a house bank of 8 8D's and a charge
rate of 220 amps per hour @ 24V.
May I ask what your normal, at anchor charging regimen, is? And isn't your
batttery bank on the small side for a boat of your displacement and inherent
hotel needs?
What do you use for cooking?
thanks,
Bill
John Marshall,
In a recent post to this list you estimated an extra daily hour of genset run
time due to sub zero appliances. Also a house bank of 8 8D's and a charge
rate of 220 amps per hour @ 24V.
May I ask what your normal, at anchor charging regimen, is? And isn't your
batttery bank on the small side for a boat of your displacement and inherent
hotel needs?
What do you use for cooking?
thanks,
Bill
