Hello all, I have been reading list for sometime now and wanted to introduce
myself,in particular in reference to Scott Bugler's posts.I am planning on
doing the same trip down the West coast this fall and am actively looking for
a used N40 or N46 right now.Finally,I am ready to buy and I can't find any
boats!If anyone knows of a potentially suitable boat that is coming up for
sale,please contact me at cwrayner@telus.net.  It is really exciting to read
about your preparations to go south! Right on!

A question for anyone wishing to respond:  I have been primarily focused on
purchasing a N40,and am wondering,what about say a Nordic Tug 42 or similar
vessel for an extended coastal trip and liveaboard,Primarily
single-handed.Victoria to Sea of Cortez for the winter.Your comments are
appreciated!

Curt,

There are a few 40's and 46's around, but they must not meet your needs or
price?  As Peter said, it's a highly personal decision regarding what boat
to purchase, I can share what went into my thinking and decision.  I like to
think I'm a big picture guy, starting at the top and working into the
details.  So, my criteria starts with voyage, the company that builds the
boats, then progresses to the specifics associated with the boat.  There
were a few other major categories of decisions that also had to be made:

1. Define the voyage:  When you go searching for a boat the first question
   out of most sales guys mouths (other than do you have the money) is "what do
   you want to DO with the boat?".  And for good reason.  An inland or coastal
   boat will likely have very different requirements from an offshore boat.
   Fuel capacity, redundancy, stability vs accommodations will all be variables
   that change based on the use of the boat.  Therefore, defining the voyage is
   critical.  When I started down this path I thought I was going to cross
   oceans.  Now I'm focused on building skills first, then making that decision
   a few years from now.  I do want a boat with this capability as well.

2. Production or Custom:  Alan Wagner reached out to me early in this
   process and shared his experience going through the design process with
   George Buehler and building a custom boat.  I can't tell you how much I
   admire his commitment and ability taking this path.  As a result he is in
   the process of building a boat that will meet his and his families needs for
   decades.  I didn't have the knowledge nor the time to take this path.
   Perhaps my next phase of life will enable me to do this, but the current
   time frame didn't allow it.  So, a critical path for me was find a
   production builder making boats capable of the voyage at hand.

3. Pick the builders/manufactures that are qualified:  Having chosen a
   production boat, knowing that I wanted to cross oceans, but also knowing I
   didn't know the questions to ask much less the correct answers, I started to
   search out the companies that seemed to be addressing the market.  It may be
   that Fleming, DeFeaver, Willard and others are building boats for this
   market, but clearly Nordhavn is THE builder out there saying "we build boats
   for couples to cross oceans".  Also, Kadey Krogen clearly was in this market
   as well.  So my journey to boat shows began trying to find the appropriate
   model of boat.  At one point in time the Selenes started to look very
   attractive, but I couldn't get past a series of negative experiences I had
   with the sales force.  Oil and Water, me and them just weren't mixing.  Now
   I'm not Selene bashing, I'm being truthful and saying the personal
   interaction in the boat building process is part of the whole picture.  As a
   matter of fact, my Nordhavn sales experience had it's ups and downs as well.
   Initially I ordered a brand new Nordhavn 40II from China.  After three LOI's
   expired, the 4th one wouldn't commit to a price, nor a delivery date.  I was
   giving them $10 grand for what?  My research of the buying experience
   suggested to me I'd be better off finding a used Nordhavn and avoiding the
   commissioning process.  I'd had nothing but negative feedback about the
   commissioning process that it convinced me to find a low hours used boat,
   this is the path I took and it worked very well for me.  On the other hand,
   there must be something fantastic about seeing your dream come together with
   all new parts, and exactly the way you wanted it, maybe next time for me?
   If I was taking the custom route, I would have found a builder that was
   making fishing boats, they have the experience in systems to build ocean
   capable craft.  I would have hired George Buehler to design the boat, or
   selected one of his existing designs.

4. Pick the right boat:  Having chosen a builder, now it's time to find the
   boat.  For me budget was a huge part of the decision.  I knew I wanted to
   take a few years off and not work while voyaging.  This meant I needed to
   trade a house for a boat.  My house was worth about $700K at the time and I
   figured I needed to stay well under that figure to insure the final price of
   the boat didn't get out of control.  What this did for me was put two boats
   out of the running.  Honestly if I had a few hundred grand more I would have
   bought the Krogen 44.  I think it's a beautiful boat and more than capable
   of doing everything I now need it to do.  However it's expensive.  I thought
   I wanted a Nordhavn 43 but the first time I got on one I found that I'm too
   fat to fit inside it.  Note I'm not saying the boat is too small for me, but
   rather I'm too fat for it.  I couldn't squeeze between the fuel manifold and
   the engine.  On the 40 I can move around, although there are a few spots
   where  it's tight.  So, depending on your budget, and what your willing to
   risk, my philosophy is buy the least boat you can that meets your needs.  A
   house is typically an appreciating asset, while a boat, well, ask me a few
   years from now that this whole thing cost.  So for my wife and I a 40 became
   increasingly the right boat.

Having taken this route here is what we have learned:

1. There are many, many boats that will make the coastal trip from here to
   MX and beyond.  Including 41' Camanos, Bayliners, Carvers and other Value
   boats.  IF, IF, IF you manage the weather like it's the most important thing
   on earth.  The key to this, NO SCHEDULES (period).  While any boat can sink,
   the weather will dictate much of where you go and what you do.  If you are
   unconstrained by time, you will likely have much better experience making
   the voyages work. If you need to get home at a specific time, you better
   invest in more capable boats.

2. Ask people with no vested interest in your purchase, like the people on
   this list.  If they aren't selling you something you are more likely to get
   great advice.  People say there are lots of people that are armchair
   sailors, but it seems to me almost everyone here is out there doing it.
   There are a few like Patrick Gerety, Peter Pisciotta, Dave Cooper and Mike
   Maurice who have so much to offer it's crazy not to solicit their opinions.
   Most will gladly exchange email if you simply ask!

3. Complications around breaking the ties with land are more about family
   relationships, legal issues (residency, insurance...) and situational timing
   that any constraints selecting the boat will present.  We arrived at a
   window in our lives where the kids are out, parents are healthy, money is in
   the bank and we said, lets go.  If that opportunity exists, do try to go.
   Life is short, make it sweet.

Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA

Ahhhh -- but Scott now has his boat and is moving aboard, while I am eight
months off from having mine "hit the water."  I really enjoyed the design
and build process.  Finding the right builder once I had the design took
longer than I had thought it would, but I wanted to make sure I had good
people that I could trust (and I did).

Scott was close on the designer, I did consider Buehler, but for a lot of
different reasons I selected Michael Kasten to design our dream. He was and
is a delight to work with.

Now if I can just figure out a way to sell my 1978 Gulfstar trawler at some
point close in time to when we get to play with the new one . . . . . . . .
. . or I'll end up with an extra boat -- and its to big to be a dinghy.

:-)

Alan Wagner
Tampa, Florida
Building Kasten designed "Passage of Time"
At Yachtsmiths International in Halifax, NS
http://yachtsmiths.com/valdemar_52_gallery_01.htm

-------Original Message-------

From: Scott Bulger
Date: 7/25/2007 11:58:59 AM
To: 'Passagemaking Under Power List'
Subject: Re: [PUP] scott Bulgers' posts

2. Production or Custom:  Alan Wagner reached out to me early in this process
   and shared his experience going through the design process with George Buehler
   and building a custom boat.

From: Keith McGregor

Alan,
Would you care to expand on some of your reasons for not choosing Buehler?
I am quite enamored with his Diesel Duck line of boats and am interested to
learn what it was that made you go in a different direction relative to
picking a designer.  I've read his books and websites, and I really
appreciate his approach to designing passagemaking capable boats

Sure . . . . .

I got the "design and build your own" bug back in late 2003 when I read
Buehler's book -- The Troller Yacht Book -- and found that there were few
choices for ocean crossing boats under 60 feet with three cabins (a
requirement" of ours because of two kids of different sexes).

The information from the Diesel Duck site did spark my interest --
especially the price tag.  Interested me enough to order the design study
drawings.  When I got them and spread them out to look closely I really did
not like the design a lot.  They were "OK" and would work -- but I was
worried about what I perceived to be lack of visibility from anywhere but
the pilot house.  It also seemed like it was pretty close quarters below.  I
don't think that the 55 Duck had been started at that time and the 462 was
the largest available.  It didn't seem big enough for what we wanted.

I remember spending part of a weekend in the backyard with a tape measure
and "creating" the different cabins and spaces with blue construction tape
on my driveway, trying to get a feel for the Duck space.

I exchanged a couple of e-mails with Buehler (I may have even spoken to him
once) and with quite a few with Duck owners (at the time there were not as
many as there are now).  I couldn't get any real information on whether it
couyld be "stretched" into what we did want.

All in all -- if I was single (or perhaps young and childless) and wanted to
tackle the challenge of circumnavigation with austerity the Duck would merit
a closer look.  No question it can do it and it seems that there may be some
cost advantages.  But (and it is a big but for us, it looked to me as if the
"typical" Duck was very Spartan -- almost like a bachelor's pad, but in a
boat.  I wanted something more roomy and something that was "couple friendly
and "kid friendly."  I just never got the "feel" that the Duck would make
me happy year after year after year.  That was important because we wanted
to essentially swap the house for a boat and spend the rest of our healthy
lives on it.  That demanded more than just an ocean capable boat (which the
Duck certainly is).  It demanded an ocean capable home that was robust,
roomy, three cabins, etcetera.

Frankly, we wanted something a little more luxurious that the Duck could
offer.  Luxurious is not the right word because it conjures up thoughts of
Jacuzzis, 24/7 generators, satellite Internet and the like.  We don't expect
to live like Tiger Woods, but we don't want to feel like we were back in the
college dorm, either.  In the end, the Duck seemed more college dorm that we
wanted and it did not meet our three cabin requirement that would allow the
kids to visit or, later, one kid (and husband and grandchild).

I also read all the Bruce Roberts books and information as well and finally
ran into Kasten's site and the wealth of information available there.  I
sent e-mails and questions to a bunch of designers, including Bueller,
Roberts and others.  While they did respond and did not just blow me off,
the responses and detail of information I received from Kasten was
overwhelming and of immense help and value to my "what I want," "what can I
pay for," "what do I really need" hand wringing.  Kasten's generosity in
responding to my "what about this," "how about that," "what will it cost"
etcetera questioning had me gravitating toward him and, when I did finally
make the plunge to start the design/build adventure Kasten was a natural
choice, as I had become very trusting of him and his thoroughness.

If you are doing the design/build "thing," picking a designer and a boat
(and, later, a builder).  Involves a decent measure of that unquantifiable
feel" or "gut" for what you think is right and what you think you will be
happy with.  While that is also part of the selection of a production boat,
I think that it is a little more important, or at least a part of, the
custom boat process.  In large part that is because most custom designs don
t have much if any "track record" -- as would a Nordhavn or Krogen, etctera
buy experience.

In the years that have passed since I first made my decision there have been
a lot more Ducks built and more of a track record with that design -- so
Beuhler may be now somewhere in between the "pure" custom design/build and
pure" production extremes.  In that respect my 2003 de-selection of Buehler
and selection of Kasten, in no small measure based on an as informed as I
could be "gut" feel is now nearly 4 years old and the Ducks and Buehler now
have four years more history to consider.

Alan

Alan -
Thanks for your response.  It sounds as if I am traveling down the very
same path you've already gone down.  I got the same bug after reading
Beebe/Leishman's book and thought I might like to build our own trawler.  I
certainly appreciate the Nordhavns, Kadey-Krogen (sp?) and other similar
boats and think that they would be quite appropriate for the type of boating
my wife and I plan to undertake in several years.  But it is unlikely that I
will ever be able to afford to own one and I know that I don't need gold
plated faucet handles (just kidding) that they all seem to be outfitted
with.

I completely agree with your assessment regarding the trim level of the
Ducks.  Some of the recent pictures I have seen of Buehler's Ducks do look
spartan in the interior and I don't see me and the missus spending our
golden years in a college dorm.  I too, would like more creature comforts in
my floating home.  My take on Buehler's point is that everything should be
SIMPLE to operate and maintain.  My initial attraction to the Ducks, besides
the overall look, was the simplistic approach to the boat.  No turbochargers
with inner-coolers, no major reliance on electronics or computers that might
come back to bite you at the most inopportune time.

My initial thoughts were that I could have someone build the hull and
pilothouse for me and I could spend a few years finishing it to our desires
and needs.  This way we could save a bunch of money - or at least spread out
the costs as equipment and materials are needed - along the way.

I have not have formed an opinion relative to sight lines or visibility and
do appreciate your thoughts to that end with the Ducks.  I hope to get my
wife to a Trawlerfest sometime in the near future so we can begin the
process of honing our desires and figure out what it is that we want in a
boat for our post-retirement years.  We do not have children, so a third
stateroom is not an issue for us.  In fact, a second stateroom is not really
a requirement either.  Maybe an office that we can convert to a stateroom
makes more sense when we have guests.
Who knows?  I expect that as we exchange thoughts and ideas within this
forum, as well as attending events like Trawlerfest, we will sharpen our
desires and requirements.  Along the way I really appreciate your input as
well as others from this group who are already living the lifestyle that we
hope to be living in the next 10 years.

I did catch your follow up message relative to Arild and we're always eager
to assimilate the knowledge and experience of others. Whatever vessel we end
up with will include the advice and expertise of those who have been down
this path before us.

OK, I am beginning to ramble too much so I will reiterate my thanks and ask
that you bear with as I ask the inevitable inane questions that have asked
many times prior  to my participation in this group.

beat regards,

Keith

Hey Keith -- the only stupid questions are questions not asked.  I don't
know where you live, but one of the attractive things we discovered that was
very unique to the builder we ultimately found in Halifax (YachtSmiths
International) was their willingness to build as slowly as we wanted.  They
made it clear that if our finances dictated a slow build then that was fine
with us.  That seemed to be true, since we have seen one boat that has moved
much more slowly than ours.  The hull was there when we began, but we are
further along than it already.  That was a comforting difference with
YachtSmiths, since all the other builders had more "schedules" that they
wanted to adhere to.  YS has plenty of room in their build facility, so they
were more flexible about being able to build at our schedule as opposed to
theirs.

I am a big fan of the keep it simple approach and, in fact, Kasten is a real
advocate of that, while being able to accommodate our desires as well.  Once
you explore the options, I think you will see that in some areas simple and
easy is best, but in others may not really allow you to use the full
potential of the boat.  Also, it is always different of you will be living
aboard as opposed to either a weekend adventure or a week here and a week
there.  Simple over a week is a breeze, whereas simple over four years may
take a lot of the pleasure out of the experience.

Something to keep in mind in any event.

Best regards,

Alan

-------Original Message-------

From: Keith McGregor
Date: 7/28/2007 3:29:55 AM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: Re: [PUP] scott Bulgers' posts

Alan -
Thanks for your response.  It sounds as if I am traveling down the very
same path you've already gone down.  I got the same bug after reading
Beebe/Leishman's book and thought I might like to build our own trawler.  I
certainly appreciate the Nordhavns, Kadey-Krogen (sp?) and other similar
boats and think that they would be quite appropriate for the type of boating
my wife and I plan to undertake in several years.  But it is unlikely that I
will ever be able to afford to own one and I know that I don't need gold
plated faucet handles (just kidding) that they all seem to be outfitted
with.

I completely agree with your assessment regarding the trim level of the
Ducks.  Some of the recent pictures I have seen of Buehler's Ducks do look
spartan in the interior and I don't see me and the missus spending our
golden years in a college dorm.  I too, would like more creature comforts in
my floating home.  My take on Buehler's point is that everything should be
SIMPLE to operate and maintain.  My initial attraction to the Ducks, besides
the overall look, was the simplistic approach to the boat.  No turbochargers
with inner-coolers, no major reliance on electronics or computers that might
come back to bite you at the most inopportune time.

My initial thoughts were that I could have someone build the hull and
pilothouse for me and I could spend a few years finishing it to our desires
and needs.  This way we could save a bunch of money - or at least spread out
the costs as equipment and materials are needed - along the way.

I have not have formed an opinion relative to sight lines or visibility and
do appreciate your thoughts to that end with the Ducks.  I hope to get my
wife to a Trawlerfest sometime in the near future so we can begin the
process of honing our desires and figure out what it is that we want in a
boat for our post-retirement years.  We do not have children, so a third
stateroom is not an issue for us.  In fact, a second stateroom is not really
a requirement either.  Maybe an office that we can convert to a stateroom
makes more sense when we have guests.
Who knows?  I expect that as we exchange thoughts and ideas within this
forum, as well as attending events like Trawlerfest, we will sharpen our
desires and requirements.  Along the way I really appreciate your input as
well as others from this group who are already living the lifestyle that we
hope to be living in the next 10 years.

I did catch your follow up message relative to Arild and we're always eager
to assimilate the knowledge and experience of others. Whatever vessel we end
up with will include the advice and expertise of those who have been down
this path before us.

OK, I am beginning to ramble too much so I will reiterate my thanks and ask
that you bear with as I ask the inevitable inane questions that have asked
many times prior  to my participation in this group.

Best regards,

Keith