TWL: Re: "Solera" oil change system
From: LRZeitlin@aol.com
Subject: TWL: "Solera" oil change system
Every 20 engine hours I bleed a
scant quart of oil out of the engine by opening the valve slightly and
directing the flow into an empty 1 quart plastic oil bottle. I then add a
new quart of oil to the engine. The capacity of the engine's small sump is
5 quarts so most of the oil is effectively changed every 100 hours.
Hmm..... I wonder about this. A friend used to change the oil in his car
every 3000 miles, but he'd ony change the filter every other oil change. I
guess to save money. Anyway, he stopped doing this when someone pointed
out that what he was doing on the "in between" oil changes was essentially
pouring a guart of dirty oil into the new oil.
So I wonder if the method you describe actually gives you any real benefit.
You take out one quart of dirty oil, leave in four, which contaminates the
quart of clean oil a fair amount I should think. Then you keep run the
engine another twenty hours, putting more soot, acids, whatever, into the
oil, then you drain out one quart, add one fresh quart which is promptly
contaminated by the remaing four quarts of dirty oil, run twenty more
hours, and so on. It seems to me that what you are really doing is
maintaining a permanently dirty oil condition in the engine. Maybe not as
dirty as the oil would be at the end of a 100 hour oil change interval, but
pretty dirty nevertheless since your ratio of clean oil to dirty oil is
never greater than one to four.
If you run the engine for 100 hours or whatever oil change interval you
use, then change it all plus the filter, you now start with completely
clean oil. Over the next 100 hours, the oil gradually gets dirty, and then
you change it again.
I guess the question to be answered is, which process gives the engine more
"time" to run on clean, or relatively clean oil? I'm thinking it takes
some sort of math formula to figure this out, and there's a good reason I'm
a film producer and not a mathematician. But it would seem to me it would
be better for an engine to get clean oil periodically instead of running
forever on dirty oil.
Now I understand your reasoning for doing this to avoid having to change
the oil at an inconvenient time during a longer voyage, and in this context
it seems like a good solution. But if someone decided this would be a
smart way to operate all the time as a way to avoid messy oil changes or
save money, I wonder if they would be making a mistake.
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 "La Perouse"
Bellingham, WA
Changing oil is a real PITA, no question! I hate to change oil!!! I dread
it!!! My knees and back do not like it!!!
I have been following this thread of ways to avoid the changing of oil since
it started and have wondered why nobody has suggested oil bypass filtering,
which can filter out to less than 1 micron, thereby providing clean oil to
your engine constantly, not just when changed, for a while. Isn't providing
clean oil for the engine the reason we change oil? Yes, I know, a guilty
conscience is also at work. We feel guilty if we don't change the oil at
recommended intervals. I know I do. I also may have stretched the change
interval a time or two for convenience.
The oil doesn't "wear" out, it just gets dirty because the standard oil
filter on the engine only filters down to about the 20 to 30 micron level
allowing the smaller grits to circulate and do damage by wearing engine
parts. The standard oil filter also has a bypass so that dirty oil bypasses
the filter without being filtered in order to continue lubricating the
engine in the event the filter clogs up or otherwise restricts oil flow. So
the reason we have to change oil is that the standard filter is ineffective
at cleaning the oil, it just takes some of the larger particles out of
circulation.
The problem, as I see it is that oil changing is a dirty messy job requiring
pump, hoses, buckets, rags, sorbent pads, etc; dirty oil is hard to get rid
of and must be transported from the boat to disposal site; new oil at a cost
of roughly $2 per quart, more or less; empty oil containers to dispose of;
environmental concerns of absorbing the dirty oil, depending on whether
recycled or not, disposal of oily rags, sorbent pads and oil containers. I
purposely left out filters as we will always need filters unless we use a
centrifuge or other effective type system to remove particles. So changing
the oil on a pair of engines, each requiring about 14 quarts of oil, can
easily cost about $60 or more, not counting any labor we may choose to farm
out. I don't know anyone that likes to change the oil. Again, I have left
out any costs associated with filters since it is a constant. Let's not
forget all the humble body positions required to change oil and the way the
body may protest in response to being called into this duty.
I have researched this problem for some time now and have come to the
conclusion that providing oil bypass filtering of sub-micron particles
combined with oil analysis is by far the best way to provide clean oil for
my engines as well as reduce or even eliminate oil changes. Filters will
still have to be changed, but perhaps not as frequently. Oil will only have
to be changed when and if oil analysis says it is required. Oil bypass
filtration is a solution that makes sense to me because it achieves
providing clean oil to the engine, cleaner than it will get otherwise and
eliminates most or all of the negative aspects of changing oil as outlined
above, including the humble body positions and resulting protests.
I have chosen to install Gulf Coast Oil Bypass Filters on both of my John
Deere main engines as well as on my Northern Lights genset. I will combine
this with regular oil sample analysis to monitor engine wear and oil
quality. This is by far the best solution to the problem, IMHO. I chose
Gulf Coast filters because they are effective and can use either a standard
roll of toilet paper or paper towels, depending on size of filter, or a Gulf
Coast filter cartridge. This is a nice feature, especially if you don't
have a filter cartridge handy.
For those occasional oil changes I may have to do, I am also installing an
oil change system mounted in the engine room. This will also be plumbed to
pull the transmission fluid for changing, with an adaptive hose and fitting
to an extra port which will also be used for miscellaneous pump duty like
pumping out coolant or whatever might be in the drip pan. I figure I will
have to carry at least one pump in any case for these other things along
with assorted hoses and containers for collecting transmission fluid and
coolant. Pump, hoses and containers will have to be stored somewhere. By
installing a mounted system, I have reduced the stowage problem as well as
the cleanup associated with these chores. I will carry two 5 gallon plastic
jerry cans for waste liquids until they can be disposed of and a couple
hoses for adapting to any of the above chores. By installing the oil change
system directly to the crankcase drain plug, I will also be removing all the
oil quickly, easily and as completely as is possible. The system I am
installing will also be capable of pumping diesel fuel and so can be easily
adapted and used for transferring fuel as required. I will carry a spare
pump and rebuild kits. The pump will be vane type.
I welcome comments and other perspectives/opinions.
Good luck,
Bob Lowe
Every 20 engine hours I bleed a
scant quart of oil out of the engine by opening the valve slightly and
directing the flow into an empty 1 quart plastic oil bottle. I then add a
new quart of oil to the engine. The capacity of the engine's small sump is
5 quarts so most of the oil is effectively changed every 100 hours.
Hmm..... I wonder about this. A friend used to change the oil in his car
every 3000 miles, but he'd ony change the filter every other oil change. I
guess to save money. Anyway, he stopped doing this when someone pointed
out that what he was doing on the "in between" oil changes was essentially
pouring a guart of dirty oil into the new oil.
So I wonder if the method you describe actually gives you any real benefit.
You take out one quart of dirty oil, leave in four, which contaminates the
quart of clean oil a fair amount I should think. Then you keep run the
engine another twenty hours, putting more soot, acids, whatever, into the
oil, then you drain out one quart, add one fresh quart which is promptly
contaminated by the remaing four quarts of dirty oil, run twenty more
hours, and so on. It seems to me that what you are really doing is
maintaining a permanently dirty oil condition in the engine. Maybe not as
dirty as the oil would be at the end of a 100 hour oil change interval, but
pretty dirty nevertheless since your ratio of clean oil to dirty oil is
never greater than one to four.
If you run the engine for 100 hours or whatever oil change interval you
use, then change it all plus the filter, you now start with completely
clean oil. Over the next 100 hours, the oil gradually gets dirty, and then
you change it again.
I guess the question to be answered is, which process gives the engine more
"time" to run on clean, or relatively clean oil? I'm thinking it takes
some sort of math formula to figure this out, and there's a good reason I'm
a film producer and not a mathematician. But it would seem to me it would
be better for an engine to get clean oil periodically instead of running
forever on dirty oil.
Now I understand your reasoning for doing this to avoid having to change
the oil at an inconvenient time during a longer voyage, and in this context
it seems like a good solution. But if someone decided this would be a
smart way to operate all the time as a way to avoid messy oil changes or
save money, I wonder if they would be making a mistake.<<<<
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003, Bob Lowe wrote:
The oil doesn't "wear" out, it just gets dirty because ...
Actually, not entirely true. Lube oil has various additives which are
consumed over time. You can filter the crud out of your oil all day,
but that doesn't replace the additives.
I would think that a bypass filtration system PLUS the proposed 20% oil
change at regular intervals would keep the oil clean and provide the
required "extras".
Paul Goyette
m/v Gentle Wind
1983 61' Cheoy Lee LRC
Sausalito, CA
When you change the Bounty towel filter, you have to add about a quart of
oil.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Goyette" paul@whooppee.com
|
| I would think that a bypass filtration system PLUS the proposed 20% oil
| change at regular intervals would keep the oil clean and provide the
| required "extras".
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Goyette" paul@whooppee.com
[snip]
Lube oil has various additives which are
consumed over time. You can filter the crud out of your oil all
day,
but that doesn't replace the additives.
I would think that a bypass filtration system PLUS the proposed 20%
oil
change at regular intervals would keep the oil clean and provide the
required "extras".
[snip]
Hi Paul,
You make an excellent and correct point! Motor oil has two "main"
additives; the first is Zinc Dithiophosphate which act as an anti-wear
agent and as an anti-oxidant and the second is an alkaline compound
(usually but not always with calcium) that does double duty as
detergent/dispersant and as acid neutralizer. Both of these additives
work by combining chemically with undesirable stuff like dirt, oxygen,
combustion acids, and even the microscopic rough spots on bearings and
journals. Once the chemical reaction has taken place that molecule is
permanently out of the game - after a few gazillion such reactions the
additive will be depleted. One of the things that oil analysts look at
is the balance between Zinc and Phosphorus because it's the simplest
way to determine if that additive is depleted just as Total Base
Number (TBN) is a good indication of how that additive is doing.
OTOH: There is creditable evidence that the use of a cellulose depth
filter like the GCF will, by thouroughly cleaning the oil, drastically
slow the additive depletion process. There are some fairly basic
chemistry reasons for why this is so and I'm pretty sure that I've
posted some material on this in the dim and distant past. If anyone is
interested, try searching on dithiophosphate or di-thiophosphate at
http://abaco.pwr.com/twl/ .
The premise behind GCF's claim that you can eliminate oil changes is
that, since additive depletion is reduced and a filter element change
requires that enough new oil will need to be added back
into the system (GCF O-1) the resulting additive level will always be
high enough for the task at hand. It's a minor semantic point, but I
would feel more comfortable saying that the GCF could allow you to
eliminate oil DRAINING rather than oil CHANGING.
Additivaciously yours,
Alex H
Everyone seems focused on clean oil, but I would submit that's the least of
the things you really need to worry about statistically. Sure, clean oil
will make your engine run longer, but according to Bob Smith, most engine
failures are a result of inattention to the duty cycles of peripherals like
heat exchangers, oil coolers, elbows, mufflers, anti-siphon and transmission
oil coolers. Not replacing a $65 oil cooler before it fails takes a greater
toll statistically than extended oil changes. Not changing impellers before
they fail and not having a downstream strainer for broken impeller parts has
cooked more head gaskets and done more long term damage than using FRAM
filters.
It takes a lot of discipline to log every maintenance activity and build a
history of the real duty cycles for your boat. Things like when to
anticipate an elbow failure, when to change impellers, coolers, heat
exchangers and hoses and making yourself jump into the engine room to do the
work before the component fails.
Regards....
Phil Rosch
Old Harbor Consulting
M/V Curmudgeon MT-44TC
Currently moored in Miami Beach, FL
And who has this information? It's not in my manual.
That said, an oil cooler is only a copper tube cooled by water, isn't it? No
mechanic parts. So why change it if it does not leak? On which basis do you
take a decision?
Regards
Ben
It takes a lot of discipline to log every maintenance activity and build a
history of the real duty cycles for your boat. Things like when to
anticipate an elbow failure, when to change impellers, coolers, heat
exchangers and hoses and making yourself jump into the engine room to do the
work before the component fails.
Regards....
Phil Rosch
Old Harbor Consulting
M/V Curmudgeon MT-44TC
Currently moored in Miami Beach, FL
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(SNIP) And who has this information? It's not in my manual. That said, an
oil cooler is only a copper tube cooled by water, isn't it? No mechanic
parts. So why change it if it does not leak? On which basis do you take a
decision?
Exactly! That's my point. It's not in manuals, but bolt on stuff causes
all kinds of failures which make engines die before their time. If you have
Lehmans and call Bob or Brian at American Diesel, they have a good handle on
the duty cycles. Elbows are 2000 hours, for example.
Re coolers, oil in the water isn't terminal, but water in the oil can be. I
change mine every 1500 hours. For $65 it's worth it to me not to risk
damaging a $7,000 engine. Every time your engine has to shut down on an
overheat, or low oil condition you are taking a risk. Blown head gaskets,
warped heads are side effects of marginal preventative maintenance IMHO.
Last year I replaced heat exchangers, oil & transmission coolers, fresh and
raw water (new style) pumps, and elbows because I was approaching 6,000
hours on my Lehmans. If you have a noisy water pump bearing on one engine,
and your hours are equal, you can be reasonable sure the water pump on the
other engine is at the end of its useful life.
I'm a single handed cruiser and I can't afford surprises. Your mileage may
vary...
Regards....
Phil Rosch
Old Harbor Consulting
M/V Curmudgeon MT-44TC
Currently moored in Miami Beach, FL
Funny you should ask. I asked Bob Smith that exact question on maintenance
intervals at his engine class at Trawlerfest (HIGHLY recommended by the
way). This is for copper/nickel exchangers for a Lehman, YMMV. Tranny cooler
should be replaced at 2000 hrs. Oil cooler 2700 hrs. Reduce that interval by
about a third for standard metals like bronze.
Here are the other hourly items for Lehmans, gathered from the manual and
other sources:
- Change oil and filter: Annual or every 100 hrs. with light use, every 200
hrs. with heavy use (Bob Smith). - Check and adjust idle speed to 600-700 RPM, Check exhaust components, all
hoses, belts, coolant, engine mount bolts, change impeller: Annual or every
200 hrs. - Check and adjust valve clearance: Every 500 to 1000 hrs.
- Flush and change engine coolant: Every 1200 hrs. or 3 years, whichever
comes first. According to Bob, regular automotive coolants are fine for the
Lehman, just don't extend this change interval. - Replace thermostat: 3600 hrs.
- Change lift pump: 2000 hrs.
If you want to change it until it leaks, you have a crankcase or
transmission full of seawater. Not a good idea.
Keith
__
You know you're getting old when you stop to think and forget to start
again.
----- Original Message -----
From: "bv" bvcom@mac.com
And who has this information? It's not in my manual.
That said, an oil cooler is only a copper tube cooled by water, isn't it?
No
mechanic parts. So why change it if it does not leak?
At 05:40 AM 12/15/03 -0600, you wrote:
"Funny you should ask. I asked Bob Smith that exact question on maintenance
intervals at his engine class at Trawlerfest (HIGHLY recommended by the
way). This is for copper/nickel exchangers for a Lehman, YMMV. Tranny cooler
should be replaced at 2000 hrs. Oil cooler 2700 hrs. Reduce that interval by
about a third for standard metals like bronze.
Here are the other hourly items for Lehmans, gathered from the manual and
other sources:
If you want to change it until it leaks, you have a crankcase or
transmission full of seawater. Not a good idea."
Hours are apparently not the only factor here. It also is dependent upon
keeping the Zinc's replaced as necessary.
About 8 years ago I purchased a Whitby 42, powered by a Lehman 4 cyl., up
in St. Augustine, Fl. While I did employ
the services of a Marine Surveyor, I did not hire an engine surveyor. The
Lehman had been rebuilt as a result of an overheat
situation a couple of years before I purchased the boat and the engine had
about 400 hrs. SMOH and review of the
rebuild invoice indicated that both oil and transmission coolers had been
replaced at that time. Survey revealed another
over heating problem under full throttle load so we renegotiated and as a
result the engines heat exchanger was pulled
found to be clogged so it was rodded out and when replaced the heating
problem disappeared. After conclusion of the
deal we moved the boat to Ft. Lauderdale which turned out to be a two day
motor as the winds were basically calm the whole trip.
Upon arrival at Ft. Lauderdale we performed a check of the mechanicals and
discovered a transmission full of sea water.
The transmission cooler had failed at some point in the trip. We know it
was ok at the survey as oil samples were pulled at that time.
We immediately obtained a new cooler, installed it and then drained and
flushed the tranny with fresh fluid. We then called in a transmission
mechanic who inspected the transmission and indicated that it appeared to
be OK and he further advised that we run the engine with the transmission
engaged at the dock for a while and then reflush the transmission with
fluid at least two more times or until there was no more indication of
water in the fluid. We did this successfully and never had another problem
with the transmission over the next few years.
Inspection of the bad transmission cooler revealed that the pencil zinc was
entirely gone, for how long it had been gone we had no idea
and because we had not employed a diesel survey it went undiscovered at the
survey. So, even though the transmission cooler was less that two years
old and had less than 400 hours it failed apparently as a result of lack of
proper maintenance in the replacement of its zincs.
Jim Alexander, Realtor
Boatless again
Port Charlotte, FL