Empathy List Archives

AM

Alan Melia

Fri, Feb 1, 2008 12:51 AM

Hi, I dont know about other counties but the oad shedding is certainly still
dont this way in the UK, BUT the incremental frequency adjectments are
corrected for the mean daily frequency to be correvt at 06:00 in the
morning.... so that all the clocks read correctly and we get to work on
time!! Despite quartzz clocks I think this is still the case....it is
probably enshrined in law in the UK. Also Our nominal voltage is 240v not
the 230v decreed by the EU fortunately we can still be fed 240v within the
tolarance allows otherwise my toaster would take forever. There is actually
a considerable difference in the light output of a tungsten bulb over that
range maybe that is why we are being forced into using "polluting"
CFBs...nutting to do with time ...sorry pardon
Great site Tom !!
Alan G3NYK

.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sylvain RICHARD" sr75pro@free.fr
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Clock Powers of Ten

michael taylor a écrit :

On Jan 31, 2008 5:27 PM, Sylvain RICHARD [1]sr75pro@free.fr wrote:

Re the mains frequency, I believe it changes with the load on the grid.
Do you have a record of this?

I forget the reasoning for frequency variation, but it is load or
source related I believe. Part of the reason it

It is a balance between production and grid load. In the European case,
the grids are phase synchronous over several countries. The (oldish)
data I have is

Nordel : Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark
Uktsoa : UK.
Atsoi : Irland
Ucte : everybody else in Western Europe : Portugal, Spain, France,
Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy,
Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, ex-Yougoslavia
During the 2006 blackout, the frequency went down by several hertz
before some customers were disconnected ("load shedding"). The so
familiar 50Hz line on VLF spectrograms took a dip.

A project for a easy to build AC frequency measuring device:
[2]http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/AC_Monitor.htm

I could log the frequency deviations from my local AC mains if you
want some sample data.

This gadget looks nice, but I think I'll pass.
Good night
Sylvain

References

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Hi, I dont know about other counties but the oad shedding is certainly still dont this way in the UK, BUT the incremental frequency adjectments are corrected for the mean daily frequency to be correvt at 06:00 in the morning.... so that all the clocks read correctly and we get to work on time!! Despite quartzz clocks I think this is still the case....it is probably enshrined in law in the UK. Also Our nominal voltage is 240v not the 230v decreed by the EU fortunately we can still be fed 240v within the tolarance allows otherwise my toaster would take forever. There is actually a considerable difference in the light output of a tungsten bulb over that range maybe that is why we are being forced into using "polluting" CFBs...nutting to do with time ...sorry pardon Great site Tom !! Alan G3NYK . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sylvain RICHARD" <sr75pro@free.fr> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 12:25 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Clock Powers of Ten michael taylor a écrit : On Jan 31, 2008 5:27 PM, Sylvain RICHARD [1]<sr75pro@free.fr> wrote: Re the mains frequency, I believe it changes with the load on the grid. Do you have a record of this? I forget the reasoning for frequency variation, but it is load or source related I believe. Part of the reason it It is a balance between production and grid load. In the European case, the grids are phase synchronous over several countries. The (oldish) data I have is - Nordel : Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark - Uktsoa : UK. - Atsoi : Irland - Ucte : everybody else in Western Europe : Portugal, Spain, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, ex-Yougoslavia During the 2006 blackout, the frequency went down by several hertz before some customers were disconnected ("load shedding"). The so familiar 50Hz line on VLF spectrograms took a dip. A project for a easy to build AC frequency measuring device: [2]<http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/AC_Monitor.htm> I could log the frequency deviations from my local AC mains if you want some sample data. This gadget looks nice, but I think I'll pass. Good night Sylvain References 1. mailto:sr75pro@free.fr 2. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/AC_Monitor.htm _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

MD

Magnus Danielson

Fri, Feb 1, 2008 12:52 AM

From: Sylvain RICHARD sr75pro@free.fr
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Clock Powers of Ten
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 01:25:54 +0100
Message-ID: 47A26712.8060507@free.fr

michael taylor a écrit :

On Jan 31, 2008 5:27 PM, Sylvain RICHARD [1]sr75pro@free.fr wrote:

Re the mains frequency, I believe it changes with the load on the grid.
Do you have a record of this?

I forget the reasoning for frequency variation, but it is load or
source related I believe. Part of the reason it

Over-production compared to consumption raises the frequency.
Under-production compared to consumption lowers the frequency.

To balance the frequency, the production of electricity is raised or lowered
as required.

In addition, the reactive effect is balanced.

During failures, creating lower consumption converts under-production to
over-production and thus raises the frequency again.

There was once a good posting on this on Synth-DIY upon my request. Can't find
it by quick google attacks.

Cheers,
Magnus

From: Sylvain RICHARD <sr75pro@free.fr> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Clock Powers of Ten Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 01:25:54 +0100 Message-ID: <47A26712.8060507@free.fr> > michael taylor a écrit : > > On Jan 31, 2008 5:27 PM, Sylvain RICHARD [1]<sr75pro@free.fr> wrote: > > Re the mains frequency, I believe it changes with the load on the grid. > Do you have a record of this? > > I forget the reasoning for frequency variation, but it is load or > source related I believe. Part of the reason it Over-production compared to consumption raises the frequency. Under-production compared to consumption lowers the frequency. To balance the frequency, the production of electricity is raised or lowered as required. In addition, the reactive effect is balanced. During failures, creating lower consumption converts under-production to over-production and thus raises the frequency again. There was once a good posting on this on Synth-DIY upon my request. Can't find it by quick google attacks. Cheers, Magnus

NM

Nic McLean

Fri, Feb 1, 2008 2:19 AM

Thanks Alan,
I'll give them a try.
73's
Nic
VK2KXN / VK5ZAT

Hi Nic these are difficult to find for free but Ridge Electronics have one
for Tracor 895 at $20. I just got a Montronics Freq Diff meter manual from
them.

Alan G3NYK

Thanks Alan, I'll give them a try. 73's Nic VK2KXN / VK5ZAT Hi Nic these are difficult to find for free but Ridge Electronics have one for Tracor 895 at $20. I just got a Montronics Freq Diff meter manual from them. Alan G3NYK

MS

Max Skop

Fri, Feb 1, 2008 2:47 AM

Hi all,
I also have a Tracor 895 and have a copy of the manual. It is all discrete
stuff , no IC's.
If you reqire a copy, that should be no problem.

Max VK3YBA
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tracor 895A

Hi Nic these are difficult to find for free but Ridge Electronics have one
for Tracor 895 at $20. I just got a Montronics Freq Diff meter manual from
them.

Alan G3NYK

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Hi all, I also have a Tracor 895 and have a copy of the manual. It is all discrete stuff , no IC's. If you reqire a copy, that should be no problem. Max VK3YBA Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tracor 895A > > Hi Nic these are difficult to find for free but Ridge Electronics have one > for Tracor 895 at $20. I just got a Montronics Freq Diff meter manual from > them. > > Alan G3NYK > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

BC

Brooke Clarke

Fri, Feb 1, 2008 3:00 AM

Hi Tom:

Nice overview.

Charles and Ray Eames did:
Powers of Ten http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078106/
Toccata for Toy Trains http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051091/
and the Eames chair which is still available from Herman Miller:
http://www.hermanmiller.com/CDA/SSA/Product/1,1592,a10-c440-p47,00.html

I think in your Powers of Ten you showed a timepiece for which I don't remember
any data. Since it's shown on the last page does that mean the hour glass has
very good specs?

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.precisionclock.com
http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam

Tom Van Baak wrote:

There are good clocks and bad clocks. Most need power, one
needs food, another runs all by itself.

Take a trip across 15 orders of magnitude of clock performance:

 http://www.leapsecond.com/ten/

/tvb

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.

Hi Tom: Nice overview. Charles and Ray Eames did: Powers of Ten http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078106/ Toccata for Toy Trains http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051091/ and the Eames chair which is still available from Herman Miller: http://www.hermanmiller.com/CDA/SSA/Product/1,1592,a10-c440-p47,00.html I think in your Powers of Ten you showed a timepiece for which I don't remember any data. Since it's shown on the last page does that mean the hour glass has very good specs? Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam Tom Van Baak wrote: > There are good clocks and bad clocks. Most need power, one > needs food, another runs all by itself. > > Take a trip across 15 orders of magnitude of clock performance: > > http://www.leapsecond.com/ten/ > > /tvb > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

BG

Bruce Griffiths

Fri, Feb 1, 2008 7:45 AM

Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Tom:

Nice overview.

I think in your Powers of Ten you showed a timepiece for which I don't remember
any data. Since it's shown on the last page does that mean the hour glass has
very good specs?

How can it have (as a clock)?
It isnt a periodic device by itself.
Need to turn it into an oscillator/periodic device first before AVAR
etc, can be measured.

Bruce

Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Tom: > > Nice overview. > > I think in your Powers of Ten you showed a timepiece for which I don't remember > any data. Since it's shown on the last page does that mean the hour glass has > very good specs? > How can it have (as a clock)? It isnt a periodic device by itself. Need to turn it into an oscillator/periodic device first before AVAR etc, can be measured. Bruce

CC

Chris Cheney

Fri, Feb 1, 2008 9:47 AM

the case....it is probably enshrined in law in the UK. Also Our
nominal voltage is 240v not the 230v decreed by the EU fortunately we

According to the Electricity Supply (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations
1994 (Statutory Instrument 1994 No. 3021) at
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1994/Uksi_19943021_en_1.htm

'4. In paragraph (1) of regulation 30 (declaration of phases,
frequency and voltage at supply terminals) for the words "240 volts"
there shall be substituted the words "230 volts".'

Chris
G3RSE

> the case....it is probably enshrined in law in the UK. Also Our > nominal voltage is 240v not the 230v decreed by the EU fortunately we According to the Electricity Supply (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 1994 (Statutory Instrument 1994 No. 3021) at http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1994/Uksi_19943021_en_1.htm '4. In paragraph (1) of regulation 30 (declaration of phases, frequency and voltage at supply terminals) for the words "240 volts" there shall be substituted the words "230 volts".' Chris G3RSE

TV

Tom Van Baak

Fri, Feb 1, 2008 9:55 AM

Fun! What piece of equipment is that Isotemp OCXO (page 28) used in?

Scott, it's from a Trak 8812 GPS Station Clock (an early GPSDO).

I must say the drip clock was very nice.
Re the mains frequency, I believe it changes with the load on the grid.
Do you have a record of this?

Sylvain, see: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/mains/

Very nice, it reminded me of a NYT article about a year ago that
describes "the long zoom" as one of the defining aspects of this generation:

Jeff, thanks for the pointer to that one.

I think in your Powers of Ten you showed a timepiece for which I don't remember
any data. Since it's shown on the last page does that mean the hour glass has
very good specs?

Brooke, I did take "time interval" data on the hour glass but it
was too awkward to manually get enough for a nice adev plot
so I left it out of the talk. I also checked its tempco (room
temperature vs. running in the 'fridge). What I need is someone
to build an optically sensed auto-flipper for an hourglass. Then
not only could a PC collect interval data unattended, but I'd get
about 24 clean samples per day, for weeks or months at a time.
I suspect a frequency drift would show up if left running long
enough.

/tvb

> Fun! What piece of equipment is that Isotemp OCXO (page 28) used in? Scott, it's from a Trak 8812 GPS Station Clock (an early GPSDO). > I must say the drip clock was very nice. > Re the mains frequency, I believe it changes with the load on the grid. > Do you have a record of this? Sylvain, see: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/mains/ > Very nice, it reminded me of a NYT article about a year ago that > describes "the long zoom" as one of the defining aspects of this generation: Jeff, thanks for the pointer to that one. > I think in your Powers of Ten you showed a timepiece for which I don't remember > any data. Since it's shown on the last page does that mean the hour glass has > very good specs? Brooke, I did take "time interval" data on the hour glass but it was too awkward to manually get enough for a nice adev plot so I left it out of the talk. I also checked its tempco (room temperature vs. running in the 'fridge). What I need is someone to build an optically sensed auto-flipper for an hourglass. Then not only could a PC collect interval data unattended, but I'd get about 24 clean samples per day, for weeks or months at a time. I suspect a frequency drift would show up if left running long enough. /tvb

NM

Nic McLean

Sun, Feb 17, 2008 6:55 PM

Thanks Max,
I would love a copy of the manual and would be happy to cover your costs of
scanning or photocopying.
Regards,
Nic
VK5ZAT / VK2KXN

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Max Skop
Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 1:48 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tracor 895A

Hi all,
I also have a Tracor 895 and have a copy of the manual. It is all discrete
stuff , no IC's.
If you reqire a copy, that should be no problem.

Max VK3YBA
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tracor 895A

Hi Nic these are difficult to find for free but Ridge Electronics have one
for Tracor 895 at $20. I just got a Montronics Freq Diff meter manual from
them.

Alan G3NYK

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Thanks Max, I would love a copy of the manual and would be happy to cover your costs of scanning or photocopying. Regards, Nic VK5ZAT / VK2KXN -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Max Skop Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 1:48 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tracor 895A Hi all, I also have a Tracor 895 and have a copy of the manual. It is all discrete stuff , no IC's. If you reqire a copy, that should be no problem. Max VK3YBA Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tracor 895A > > Hi Nic these are difficult to find for free but Ridge Electronics have one > for Tracor 895 at $20. I just got a Montronics Freq Diff meter manual from > them. > > Alan G3NYK > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

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Clock Powers of Ten